O.K. please be gentle. I’m building my first house, I got in a big hurry to install windows so I could get siding on and got the sequence of flashing/homewrap wrong. It didn’t occur to me until later, when I was looking at the photos.
I was trying to decide what would be the best fix. I could tear it all out and start over, or I could put a band of felt paper around the top, from the tops of the windows up, and the next course of homewrap would lap over putting things back in a water shedding order. What do you think?
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How to say this gently. Do you plan to put sheathing on this house before you put on the siding?
I do think that you need to pull the window and door and flashing and tyvek and then put sheathing on those studs and then re-wrap with the house wrap and set and tape the windows.
It's really not that much work and I really think you need sheathing.
Or are you pulling our leg with that photo?
Piffin, what make ye of this?
------------------
"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
Could be the siding is the sheathing, T1-11 or "Smart Panel"
Never seen the windows put in before the roof was framed and blacked in though.
Look like vinyl, so I suppose they'll be ok in the weather?
A Mystery to me. don't see any diagonal bracing in those walls so T-1-11 seems most likely.------------------
"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
Like the others, I am not sure what the greengaurd is supposed to be doing there, since you do not have the sheathing on yet.
I also see a bunch of caulking that appears to be smeared around the nailing fins. What's up with that?
Maybe you have invented a new way to build?????
Educate me.
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The siding is t-111, so it's a sheathing/siding combo. I put caulk on the backside of the nailing fin to help seal things better.
well, it's certainly not ideal. but I think you coudl probably cover the nailing fins of the windows and doors with 4-in. wide strips of peel and stick flashing (Grace Vycor or similar) to keep water from getting into your rough openings.
Don't you still need let-in bracing with T-111? Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
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Every corner, each way, is a 4' shear panel, the t-111 is the structural sheathing in these areas. I didn't design this, I purchased a lumber package w/ a set of plans. Ideally I would prefer to use sheathing and then siding on top of that. The plans and package is set up for 5/8" siding as sheathing and the total cost of the project restricted me to that. I would rather do hardie shingles, but I got what I got.
So this is an el-cheapo kit from lumbermen lumber?
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Yeah, I think of it as the Ford Fiesta of homes. it's replacing a 1965 green mobile home, the Ford Pinto of homes. We all start somewhere.
Pic of the mobile
more like the yugo of lake cabins
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Greenguard Raindrop is a house wrap with vertical grooves that act as a drainage plane. It's a bit odd to see it in this system but it can't hurt. Panel siding without sheathing has one distinct problem: there is no good way to integrate a modern nail fin window into it. Some recommend applying the window over the panel siding and covering the fins with trim which creates a very difficult head detail and others recommend placing the windows over the bare frame and then installing the siding as seen here. this creates a better perimeter seal and allows flashing to the frame but the sill requires a great deal of additional attention, usually a projecting subsill or metal flashing that overlaps the siding.This system is so difficult to design, build and maintain that I have never understood where the saving might be unless it is a house built for speculation.I've never understood how the panels could act effectively in shear when the shiplap edges prevent proper nailing. Are the studs 3X?It appears there is building felt under the flange and if so, it is doing nothing useful. You should put WR grace Vycor or DuPont StraightFlash over the nail fins so that it seals to the Raindrop wrap. The Raindrop should have been cut so that it would overlap the head fin but is you apply the flashing tape well (with a roller) it might be OK. Or, as others have mentioned carry it up to an overlap detail above if possible.It appears that you put too much sealant under the nail flange and it squeezed out onto the felt. This will contaminate that surface and make it impossible to adhere anything to it so it is important that the flashing tape extend over to the housewrap.
Edited 10/12/2007 11:48 am ET by streets
Thanks a lot for your input. The studs are 2x6. The shear panels are 4' so I'm not sure if the shiplap compromises the structural strength or not. This has all gone thru the local building dept. and many of these, and other designs from the same outfit can be seen throughout the local community. I will definitely be using some grace around the nailing fins. thanks for the tip.On the slider, i tried putting the caulk around the opening and totally missed. Another idiot mistake.
Edited 10/12/2007 7:58 pm ET by lydensden
Im glad to see so many of you are living in over engineered castles, and are quick to call what 1 man can afford a peice of cr@p.
The OP is clearly trying to better his situation and comes here for some guidance, in-wich he admitably needs.
I've never understood how the panels could act effectively in shear when the shiplap edges prevent proper nailing. Are the studs 3X?
I dont see how it is any different than plywood hidden under a fancy lap siding.
If anything i would think with the vertical shiplap and being nailed down the center you would have more shear than two pcs butted up and nailed off on 3/4"s of a stud.
This assumes that there is no special requirements of a double stud at panel brakes.
Greenguard Raindrop is a house wrap with vertical grooves that act as a drainage plane. It's a bit odd to see it in this system but it can't hurt.
Ive never seen a house wrap under full panel siding and our code specificaly says dont need it.
This system is so difficult to design, build and maintain that I have never understood where the saving might be unless it is a house built for speculation.
This system has been around for decades (full panel siding) and has no more inherent flaws than any other house envelope. we have all seen the newest and greatest siding come and go and in every one one waterproofing comes down to the details, and for me personally i have seen alot less failures around windows and doors w/ T-1-11 than any other siding combination.
As you can tell i like the economics of full panel siding and the easy ability to add lap siding in the future if one desires.
STREETS:I dont meen to call you out specificaly on most of this post. Most of it was for Piffin.
Well,Unless it is required by your AHJ, I don't see what the greengaurd is doing for you in any way shape or form. I suppose that I would use some tarpaper over the door up to the top plate like you have over that window.Please tell me there is no second story going up over this.
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This is a package deal, plans/lumber. There is a second story,sort of. It has a gambrel roof that creates an upstairs. At each corner, 4' each way is a shear panel. The t-111 serves this purpose as well. The green guard is what they sent me with the package. Are you saying that the green guard is no good without sheathing underneath it? Would felt paper be better? Like I said, this is a lumber/plans combo, and is designed to have the siding is sheathing (including structural) set up. It's not my first choice to do it this way. I would like to have sheathing with hardie shingle siding, but there just wasn't room in the budget for it. So, I settled for the way it came. If I could afford it I would use every state of the art method and materials I could, but this is a weekend, up at the lake, cabin for us and in order for us to do it we just couldn't go all out. Maybe on my next place, and hopefully I won't make quite so many mistakes.
lydensen, Ignore them right coasters. ;-) I recognize the "Lumbermans " name. Yes, for the purpose of a drain path, felt of more "green guard" will work as you described installing it. (A second course above the window and doors) Shouldn't need a drain path though if the t-11 is well painted and a "z" metal is used at the horizontal seams. (Don't shout you guys I can hear your howls and growls from here. ;-) ) (lydensen, What the heck is "green guard" BTW?) For you "right coasters" what he has going on is what was typical "inexpensive" tract housing stuff from here in the PNW for many years. FHA and HUD approved methodology. Frame the walls on the deck , place windows and tack them into place, felt (or wrap ) the walls, then (depending on manpower available) either skin them with T-111, or similar, or stand then sheath them. T-111 nails on over the window nailing flange and is caulked to seal .
"Better homes " had trim placed around the window on the exterior. T-111 meets the code requirements for shear , but in some jurisdictions felt or wrap was needed beneath to satisfy weather proofing. For awhile there were counties here that allowed the sheathing to used by itself. The glue line in the Ext. ply was considered to constitute a water barrier. That is no longer true I don't believe. Clearly not "Fine Homebuilding" or even close, but it does make a serviceable building that if maintained will last some years. be putting my earplugs in now.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Thanks for the reply. I had never heard of geenguard until now. I probably would have picked plain old felt, but they sent me that. I was thinking I should have put the felt flashing on under the "geenguard" to keep things in a water shedding order. at first I thought I would have to undo everything and start over, but I figured I'd make a mess of the homewrap trying to get out the staples. I figured laying a tier of felt at the top and laying the second course of wrap over that would be a cleaner fix. I suppose using Grace would work as well, or maybe in combo with the aforementioned fix. I will definitely be using z metal at the joints. Thanks again.
lydensen,
I don't know what "Green Guard " is but I can check in the am and get back to you tomorrow.
I suspect it is a cross woven poly product. Do use a suitable flashing tape around all the windows , and do it in the correct sequence. (bottom, sides, then top). Caulk the windows carefully after installing the siding, then if you have a few extra bucks add 1 x trim to the windows and doors.
Fill the T-111 grooves above the windows and doors to the top of the trim . Caulk the trim again after installing it. Understand that what you have is a starter place, which you indicate you are aware of.Maintain the paints and caulks. Also read the T-111 instructions for painting, a lot of people have seen the stuff delam as a result of improper primers being used.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
On the Greengaurd, see above what I just wrote.It is a satrong woven housewrap made to create drainage channels for rain to flow down and out. The thickness of the vertical ( it has to be applied running in the right direction) portion of the waeve is thicker for that purpose. Like I said, with no sheathing behind it, that weave serves no purpose that any other housewrap would not do at far less cost. But other housewraps would be more likely to tear out when a wall is lifted with no sheathing like this.I've built sheds for the lawn tractor etc with just T 1-11, but no way would I want a second story loading over the way this wall is built. Maybe there is no wind or seismic action there, eh?
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Piffin, Thanks for the input on the "GreenGuard". Not knowing what it was I had assumed it was another type of "housewrap" intended as a moisture/airbarrier. If it is a "drainage plane then I agree , in this situation it is a waste of money..
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
tarpaper better for what? I can't see what the purpose of the greengaurd is supposed to be there.
It was developed and is made and sold to create a drainage plane between the sheathing and the siding, so that if water penetrates the sding, the weave has allowed micro channels for that water to bleed on down in the wall assembly to the bottom of it. With no sheathing behind it, there is no need for the cost of that weave. The only thing I can imagine is that it is strong enough to handle a small amount of wind when it has no other support.If T 1-11 is installed well, it is as tight of a siding as you can get.It scares me to think that a hack designer who ccomes up with something like this would then try designing a sencond floor over that. You do not even have a top plate there yet.
I cannot fathom adding the load of a second story over a method ( using only T 1-11) that is fine for camps and storage sheds. This is very scary!
Your building department actually allows this?!?!
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It scares me to think that a hack designer who ccomes up with something like this would then try designing a sencond floor over that. You do not even have a top plate there yet.
I cannot fathom adding the load of a second story over a method ( using only T 1-11) that is fine for camps and storage sheds. This is very scary!
Your building department actually allows this?!?!There will be a second top plate applied when the intersecting interior walls are built. that way they can be lapped and tied together. Siding preferences aside (no pun intended) the house is effectively sheathed, with approved sheathing, and all the proper nailing schedules are applied. So what's the difference? I'm not a home builder and so I certainly don't pretend to be an expert, but I don't think that siding is considered to be much of a structural component. So if house A has sheathing w/ siding and house B has sheathing that is also siding, what is the difference? besides how it looks? What am I missing? Please educate me.
Id live in the same neighborhood w/ya :)
Seriously i agree w/you.
i think you'll do fine with your house-just need a little guidance tis all.
My 2 cents is remove the house wrap all together and dont use it. carefully cut your siding around your windows for a 1/8" fit and carefully caulk with a polyurathne caulk.
Hey, thanks for understanding and thanks for the input. I plan on using lots of caulk and anything else that will help keep rain out.
lydensden, Piffin mentioned something that got me to looking at the "Lumbermens" website. I don't see where they advertise "House" plans as I remember them doing. Are the plans for a "House" or for a shed/garage etc? If the latter I hope that you have had a BI check them out for suitability as a dwelling.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Try looking up Alliance Homes. They used to be called Lumbermens homes. They're still affiliated with Lumbermens. This is specifically a home plan. Point taken about the greenguard, but like I said, I didn't choose it. Thanks for your input.
lydensen, Got it. Thanks for the info on Alliance. I raised the caution because I have seen people take the shed/garage plans with gambrel roof truss and try to make a dwelling out of them. You will do fine. Keep asking questions if you need to .
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Edge nailing of 5/8" Texture 1-11 style plywood panel siding is very different from edge nailing square edge sheathing panels. If it conforms to APA 303 siding standards, the shiplap notch in the back most panel would be 5/16" deep and 3/4" wide. The overlay panel would have a notch 5/16" deep and 1/2" wide. The two panels would overlap 3/8". The amount of the 5/8" thick part of the panels that overlaps a 2X stud should be 5/16" each side if the panels are placed carefully. That's just enough for a 10d nail to work if it starts in line with the face of the stud and angles inward to catch about 1/4" of it. In actual practice one side of the stud often gets split by the nails reducing the lateral bracing value of the panel to essentially nothing. Square edged sheathing panels would provide an additional 3/8" stud contact at each panel edge which is more than twice as much.If the nailing of a panel edge is only through the 5/16" thick notch, the shear value of the panel is reduced by half or more. If the bracing panel is only needed at the corners it might be possible to align the studs so that the corner panels get full nailing at all sides. It is usually more predictable to use a 3x stud.Also nailing through the notch with 6d nails may not be an issue for a small one story structure in a protected area outside of a seismic zone but I don't really know much about the design of the house.
......There is nothing wrong with using housewrap (although drainage grooves are probably not necessary) and the lack of a code requirement is irrelevant; I hope no one thinks the building code is the final word on the waterproofing of buildings. I only said that the wrap couldn't hurt and that is a fact. Even the APA recommends a weather barrier behind any 303 series panel siding even when there is no sheathing behind it. In my experience, the major problems with this kind of siding is that the heavily grooved softwood plywood face splits easily and requires more finish maintenance than most other types of siding and also the weather seal at the windows relies too much on sealant in shallow surface gaps at cut edges of plywood with no backer rods which is a temporary solution at best requiring more maintenance than most other types of siding.When someone asks me to comment on his construction-in-progress, I don't give any thought to what he can afford; that's his business; I just give him my opinion based on my experience and he can take it or leave it. If your experience is different just tell him so; I'm not going to defend everything I say here.
streets, Interesting analysis of the seam nailing. I have never thought about that aspect of the issue. I have a couple of comments / questions for you . First I have no idea where the OP is from as he didn't fill out his profile. (Nor for that matter do I have any idea of where you are from. Oregon requires as a minimum code bracing a panel at each corner and one every 25 ft. down a wall. (assuming a simple rectangle). This will meet both wind and seismic loads.
I can see how the narrow nailing surface causes loss of shear strength, but what of the added shear strength from having the entire wall nailed off with the T-111? How does this get figured into the equation?
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Streets and passin are both making some good points on the shear wall thing.I have never really considered T 1-11 a good shear plan for two reasons. One is he terrible connetion at the laps already mentioend. If I were depending on it as shear panel, I would be inclined to use PL Premium to glue sheets to the framing, especially at that lap and to each otehr as well.The other is that the dado grooved out of the T 1-11 is less than a 3/8" thickness so the shear strength of the panel shoiuld not be accepted as a 5/8" panel.
I don't know where a 3/8" panel is considered a shear panel.
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I don't see anything wrong with using thin stuff for shear panels. You'd just have to take the thickness of the sheathing into consideration when you figured the number and size of fasteners required.
If someone shows you who they are, believe them.
OK - how would you fasten 1/4" shear sheathing?how 'bout eighth inch?see where I'm going?will plastic cap nails in Greengaurd provide shear strength if you use enough of them?;)
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I've seen sheathing as thin as 1/8" used for shear panels. Like I said - You just have to consider the forces, thickness, and fasteners stuff before you decide what to use.The Greengaurd might work in shear, but you'd have to stretch it REALLY tight.(-:
If passion drives you, let reason hold the reins.
Piffin, I can't speak for now, but it was acceptable for walls here under the code.
One time I and some friends were builing a dome (early 70's) and the BI would not accept the 3/8's ply as acceptable as sheathing because while OK for walls it wasn't acceptable for roof sheathing due to the roof loding and the spans. We asked for a meeting with the local advisory board (bunch of old builders who didn't much care for the BI or codes). At the meeting we got the BI to clearly state that the 3/8's was acceptable as shear for walls. After he affirmed it was we placed a model of the dome on the table and I asked him to tell us where the walls stopped and the roof started. After the laughter died down We got the the dome done with 3/8's with the advisory boards blessings and tried to avoid building in that county again . Paybacks are hell!!
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
This could probably be a whole different thread.
I dont know a whole lot about engineering and what i do learn i usaly forget to quikly, but heres how i see it.
The two panels would overlap 3/8". The amount of the 5/8" thick part of the panels that overlaps a 2X stud should be 5/16" each side if the panels are placed carefully. That's just enough for a 10d nail to work if it starts in line with the face of the stud and angles inward to catch about 1/4" of it. In actual practice one side of the stud often gets split by the nails reducing the lateral bracing value of the panel to essentially nothing. Square edged sheathing panels would provide an additional 3/8" stud contact at each panel edge which is more than twice as much.
In a simple wall, simple house with no addition engineering requirements i cant see how 1/2" sheathing nailed or stapled (normal around here) to a single stud can effectively out shear a shiplapped panel (lets just say 7/16" lp t-1-11) nailed with 7d galvanized nails at 4-6" spacing. even with the thinner laps i think the placement of the nail through the panels together into the center of the stud would hold better.
I have a bunch of books sitten here on the shelf but i cant recall any of them talking about such a thing.
maybe some on here has the calcs to show one way or the other.
Regarding the issue of shear panels, I did double up the studs at the corners and at the 4' joint.
lydensen,
BTW,
there is a way to not use the "Z" metal on the gable ends. Bring the outside face of your truss into line with the lower walls T-111, then hang the T-111 on the gable end down 4". This makes a weather seal as well as provides a good tie between the gable end and wall. Check your materials closely though, they usually don't send any extra of anything with those kits.
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Good looking out, thanks, Dovetail! Speaking of z metal, the stuff they sent me is ####! I think it's less than an inch tall on the part that is supposed to lap behind the upper sheet. I picked up some bigger stuff to use instead.
That is a darn good idea! Every one of these I have ever seen with Z metal on T 1-11 showed signs of tons of water penetration there at that seam
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Do your self a favor, backfill that foundation, ASAP! It's a real saftey issue working in them conditions.