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Flashing Synthetic Stucco on ICF

asolardeck | Posted in Construction Techniques on May 10, 2012 02:23am

Hi,

Our house is 10 years old and the 1st floor is American Polysteel ICF.  The concrete is thick in some places and skinnier in others as was the ICF design for Polysteel back then.

 

We have decided to add a deck to the west side of the house and due to the concerns of cutting into the synthetic stucco re: moisture, we have decided to go with posts & beams up tight to the wall.  However, as I interview contractors to do this free standing deck, I want to ensure they know what they are doing and I am curious about flashing the freestanding deck to the wall.  How is that done as I understand it is best to not cut the synthetic stucco, nor is it good to apply roofing cement and or some other adhesive on the stucco and press the metal flashing into the adhesive.  So, how does one prevent water from going down the approx. 1″ gap (?) between the house & the deck?  And, is 1″ too big or small a gap? What is the appropriate gap spacing?

Thank you.

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Replies

  1. calvin | May 10, 2012 06:26am | #1

    Free standing deck....................no connection to house

    If the deck is free standing there would be no need to make a connection to the building and thus, no flashing required.  A 1" gap would allow water, leaves and most debris to pass.  You could probably tighten that up to a half inch and still be able to get something thin between there to clean out the crud that might build up.

  2. DanH | May 10, 2012 07:15am | #2

    One should install some sort of spacer between deck and house if they're that close.

  3. IdahoDon | May 10, 2012 11:01am | #3

    You don't want flashing - and you don't need flashing!  That's one of the the benefits of a freestanding deck.   You also don't want spacers or anything bridging that gap - if your deck contractors don't understand this you'd better find another.

  4. calvin | May 10, 2012 02:29pm | #4

    prevent the water from going through the deck?

    Assuming your deck boards are not spaced and are some form of tongue and groove and/or you are using some sort of water catcher under them to keep the underside dry.........................

    You could attempt to fit a collector below the gap at the wall that would drain away the water.

    Seeing as you do not want to penetrate the surface of your wall, there's not much you can do to completely keep water from filtering down at that point.   Other than maybe install a lateral trim along the wall (attached to the deck) and seal it with Lexel, Urethane or other good sticking caulk.  You could be neat about it, but the seasonal movement of the deck will probably break the bond over time (long or short).

    If you're using deck boards with a gap, don't worry about it and run the decking up close and nice to the wall .

  5. crosscountry | May 15, 2012 09:46am | #5

    I avoided a variance and kept bugs out of a freestanding covered deck that looks like its attached to the house by screwing garage door weather stripping to the deck and roof where it met the siding & foundation of the house. The rubber 'gasket' strip is up against the siding/foundation (and painted to match the siding). It keeps most water out (I think I remember some seepage...but haveing seen any lately). If you're having to shed water off the deck anyway (or your allowing it to draining through), I would think it would direct the water away from the stucco.

    Jeff

  6. Piffin | May 18, 2012 11:27pm | #6

    Do not flash it. You have a free standing deck. You do not want it tight to the house. You want to let water drain thru, down and out

  7. Piffin | May 21, 2012 06:25am | #7

    Labor cost has absolutely nothing to do with material cost.

    Nothing.

    Labor cost is all about how much labor is required, and the degree of skill and quality of craftsmanship.

    There is also the style of design. Some railings are easy whileothers can take more time than the entire deck to build.

    Acess to the build location is a major factor too. I just finished a smallish project that was downhill and around behind the house over aa nice lawn that could not be driven on. I did estimate for time to get everything down there, but forgot to think about getting all my tools and debris back UP again to leave.

    And you seem focused just on the labor cost, but overhead and insurances can easily double that

    1. DanH | May 21, 2012 07:37am | #8

      There is a relationship, but it's a bit tenuous.  Except for trim detailing and the like (where the cachet of spending money is valued more than the money itself), where there are labor-intensive activities people tend to invent replacement technologies (eg, plaster ->drywall).  Plus, if someone is spending, say $10,000 for trim work that could be "hacked" for $1000, they're apt to also spend more on the materials -- eg, walnut instead of oak or pine trim.

      The same principles apply to a wide variety of "products".

      It's not a "rule" -- there's always the wild duck.  But there's a pretty strong correlation.

      1. asolardeck | May 21, 2012 12:37pm | #9

        Piffin,

        As DanH states, there is a tenuous relationship between labor & materials.  So, your statement that labor costs has nothing to do with material cost is not quite factually correct as one can make a relationship between anything if they want.  If you go back and look at all your jobs you have ever done, divide the total cost of each job into a "material only" and "labor only" category, and figure out the %-age of each category, I bet you would be surprised to see you can average the material %-age to get a very, very rough rule of thumb.  And, then you know to add for the specific job complexity.  So, if a person ever asks for a off-the-cuff estimate of a job, say at a party with friends, and they ask you "hey, I am thinking of doing "X", you can tell them, "hey, figure out the material cost and then multiply that by x % to get an idea of total cost.  Now, remember, that is a very rough-ball park # and every job is different because of site location, craftmanship, material used (oak vs pine), etc. I can give you a firm quote if you want but I need to see the job and talk with you iin detail.  But, hety, use that %-age times material cost to get an idea" and bam, you are off to the next topic, the guy has a general idea of the cost, and everyone is happy.  Oh, focused on just the labor cost?  Overhead & insurance? Do you quote jobs as 1) material; 2) labor; 3) overhead; 4) insurance?  Your overhead & insurance is already figured into your labor cost.  Me as a client do not care what your overhead & insurance cost.  Period.  I am concerned with the total job cost, and if I know what the approximate material cost is then I can subtract that from your quote to get an idea of the labor cost.  If your total job price is too high, then I know it is your labor cost, as I know the approx. material cost.  And, if your labor cost is too high, then that usually results from 1) you quoted high because you do not want the job; or 2) you quoted high because of the neighborhood I live in or the type of car I drive and you figure I can afford more than most (has happened); or 3) your modifier is too high because of previous issues.

        So, back to my original question...looking to get an approximate rough ball-park of an idea of what labor should be given a material cost of $4k.  I think a total job price that is 600% of the material cost is a little much: $4k x 600% = $24k quote I received last week.  What does this job entail? erecting (13) 6x6 posts, putting (2) glue lams on top of the posts, putting up trusses and/or beams, sheeting on top of the trusses, and putting down pro-panel, plus all the misc. trim that goes along wiht this job.  Those are just the "major" activities involved......not all the activities  But, $20k labor? That price makes me go    Hmmmmmmmmm..........

        1. calvin | May 21, 2012 06:36pm | #10

          Well

          It is quite easy for us to see a relationship between all our expenses and labor-our end of year tax prep shows it pretty clearly.

          And what I find is that my labor is no where near my material purchases and those fluctuate greatly if I do a few kitchens and supply the cabinets.

          So no, I would never use material for any rule of thumb.

          period.

  8. asolardeck | May 21, 2012 08:42pm | #11

    So, what you are basically saying is you could conceivable see your labor cost beign 100,000 percent greater than the material cost so there is no general rule of thumb...an extreme exageration, but if there is no general rule of thumb..... 

    http://www.goftp.com/qna/Labor_vs_material_wat_is_the_percentage-qna137931.html

    Non skilled scope of work usually is in the range of 30% to 35% of the Material Cost. Scope of Work that requires highly skilled labor usually is in the range of 35% to 40% of the material cost.  and i am a general contractor myself and tell all my customers that my labor is the same as the materials sometimes a little more . I am very busy and i`m considering going even higher for my labor simply because i believe i`m worth it labor is hard work and you have to be very knowledgeable.

    http://www.homebuyerstalk.com/showthread.php?t=37857

    There are a lot of factors that can effect this, as others have posted, but a good rule-of-thumb is that you will spend $2 on labour for every $1 in materials. and I find the 1/3 materials figure a good rule-of-thumb for estimating as actual figures tend to lean towards a slightly higher percentage for materials, meaning that total costs tend to be estimated higher than the come in at (e.g.: if materials are estimated at $1000, then labour is estimated at $2000, for a total of $3000 -- but if the $1000 of materials ends up representing 40% of the total, then the total is $2500)

    http://www.ehow.com/how_5814902_prepare-carpentry-job-estimates.html

    Determine labor cost. There is a complicated method of figuring labor cost for a project. Determine the number of workers needed, their jobs, their pay and the number of days they will be on the project. This method depends a lot on guessing how fast each worker will do his job. A good rule of thumb is to multiply the total material cost (including delivery and rentals) by 1 1/2 to get labor cost. This will give you ample money to pay for workers, insurance and licensing while maintaining a profit.

    http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/Materials_Labor_Overhead_And_Profit.html  lots of opinions & advice here...

    As you can see, there is no solid rule of thumb....and, it varies from manufacturing to construction to whatever industry, from labor intensive to non-labor instensive, from jobs that are done right next to the sidewalk in front of the house to those jobs done down the dirt hill, around back, and then further down the path to the lake's edge, ...BUT.....for me, from what I am seeing, to figure 100% of material cost for labor is a pretty darn good place to start.  If I get anything higher or lower than that, I know to ask.  But, some of your answers left me thinking that paying $20k in labor when material is $4k was a good price and I should just go with it, and that I should not queston it..because, wow, no general rule of thumb, other than to get multiple quotes, which is always a good thing. 

    I figured since I got a good answer on my original question about flashing, and everyone was helpful, I would get helpful responses on seeing if there was a general rule of thumb on a labor vs. material ratio.  I know all about different industries, different job complexities, etc.  In my line of work we figure on average about $xxxk per per person per year in labor  (yes, that is 3 digits in k).  Some are lower, some are higher..but, it serves to quickly determine total cost...and we know that, and mkae other adjustments

      Boy, a lot of you must be great people to hang out with at a barbque because it sounds like as soon as the conversation turns to how much something costs all "socialness" goes out the window and it is all business from that point on...since there is no general rule of thumb, no advice that can be given as to ensuring the person has something to start with when talking with a contractor. 

    Anyway, I consider this topic closed now...I have my answer.  Thanks to those that were helpful, and to those that were not...well, good luck...

    1. calvin | May 21, 2012 09:34pm | #12

      It seems that I'm not picking up on who you directed this answer above to.............as it's  "by asolardeck in reply to asolardeck [original] on Mon, 05/21/2012 - 19:42"

      And in responding to it-even tho it's closed- I'm not sure how to word it.

      But here goes a try and I really should have re-read your posts.

      You can do anything you want to figure if the price you are getting is a good deal.

      And you can certainly be satisfied with your choice of professional help after your interview.

      Perhaps both will come in the same package and maybe come warranty time, both the goods and the contractor will be around to satisfy that part of the job as well.

      But what sometimes strikes me as odd are those that come here, ask a question, get a few answers that they want to hear and are offended by those responses that they don't want to hear.

      If it's my mistake and you're not one of those people, then my whole hearted apology.

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