Flat porch roof /chimney flashing
I was enlisted to roof this curved flat porch roof which also meets a huge stone chimney mass to thru flash-as well as the whole gable end being of stone.
The shingled portions were 18″ red cedar laid 5″ to the weather.
Archy speced 20 oz. lead coated copper for the roof and thru flash. I’m half done the total job and thought some folks might like to see the work in progress.
Pic 2005ground view of where the job is
1968 pans almost in place
1971 approaching the corner board
1974 shingled roof meets chimney mass-ledge for gable end stonework on right
1987 porch roof,gable end flashings,and chimney flashing
1992 terminous of chimney mass,roof and corner flashing
1994 house termination-W valley and sheet lead installed by builder
If anyone is interested in the whole sequence I’ve attached a Shutterfly album
http://share.shutterfly.com/action/welcome?sid=8cbsmrhqzno
Replies
walter... nice slide show..
i couldn't find the sound button though
this one is a pretty good overview
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you know i'm not a mason, but the masonry looks funny to me..
i know your thru flash will protect the interior of the house.. but it seems like there is going to be a lot of water getting into the blockwork and freezing / spalling
also.. it looks like two flues ... front & back.. are you going to flash the rear flue too ?
and .... shouldn't the flues be independent of the block work to allow for different expansion rates ?
i guess my real question is... is the mason building a good chimney ?
Mike,
Remember the other album I sent you in the early Summer on thru flashing-it was on this same house.
At the time I bitched to the GC about the lack of air space around the flue liners-told him then they didn't meet code.Archy hired the masons they became involved local Fire Chief was consulted and he told them I was correct the chimneys were non compliant.
So in answer to your question no the chimneys are not good-but they must still be flashed-so there I am.
How about the cornice detail I sent out yesterday?
the cornice detail ain't so bad.. it's the lack of protection for the cornice detail that bothers me
here, on the left.. there is no drip detail..
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all the water off that roof is going to sheet-flow over every detail on that cornice.. and it's going to get into the endgrain and behind the applique'
if we did a roof in reds, it would have a large copper drip edge on both the eaves & the rakes
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 12/15/2006 7:44 am ET by MikeSmith
You're entirely correct Mike. The detail is totally lacking in water protection.
My involvement was way too late in the project to have any input. There should have been a Metal Man on site for all the details .
Care to see some more crazy detailing!
holly shid, batman !
seems like the mason is not the only incompetent working on that job
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this one is a double whammy ... the stonework & the window cap
i take it back... the lowpitch roof is gonna be toast in three yearsMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I particularly like the shot where the wall meets the roof and the Last course of roof shingles ( over the flashing) MUST be nailed thru the flashing...LOL
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I have irriatable Vowel syndrome.
>>>>>seems like the mason is not the only incompetent working on that jobAs a sub, I've been through this before. You get a HO or just plain incompetent GC and you have to do stuff like this to get paid. I've gotten good radar over the years to weed these guys out, but every now and then one slips by. On the other hand, these type GCs/HOs will weed out the good subs and find somebody that will do their evil bidding 'cause they need the work or don't know any better.http://logancustomcopper.com
http://grantlogan.net/
http://www.chicagotribune.com/classified/realestate/homeimprovement/chi-010316outdoorrenovation,0,2786095.htmlstory?coll=chi-classifiedhomeimprove-utl
Mike,
I knew you'd cringe when you saw the stonework butted into the wall and the cedars scribed to the stone.
A nice ending could have been done by flashing an end 2x with lead coated for the stone to end on then the cedars butted to the flashed block.
Most of these issues are not the builders doing from what I can gather-he's being fed details from those higher up the food chain. I know you know who they are.
I agree the roof is doomed,but they did use breather on the upper roofs when I flashed the other two chimneys last Spring-so maybe it was used on the shallow planes.I know it won't last even with the breather.
How about the wall/roof juncture with no air space between the two.
Walter, can you tell us a little about your torch/fuel/solder choices and set up ?
i am curious------you mention lead coated copper, and i am wondering how it all solders together. 25 years ago---when i was an electro plater we did a LOT of lead burning every day---burn pieces of sheet lead together fabricating anodes. Used a fine torch tip and natural gas straight out of the wall mixed with oxygen( bottled)--- only had to heat to about 750 degrees i believe. we used some filler when burning that we made-primarily pure lead that we added a small percentage of tin and a smaller percentage of antimony. If I remember correct---the tin added a bit of rigidity to the lead--and I think the antimony helped bind it all together. all toxic as hell and we were covered with lead oxide every day.
just curious
BTW--starting 2 small slate roofs monday-- bay window and front porch. I doubt I will post any pictures---- I wouldn't want you to hurt yourself laughing :>)
thanks--Stephen
Stephen,
I don't know if you went thru the Shutterfly album so I'll include some pics here.
The main soldering outfit I used here was an acetylene fueled set up from ASCO - Acetylene Supply Co. from somewhere in Jersey-I can look that up later for anyone interested. The "b" tank just like most plumbers carry is the container. The torch set up keeps an iron up to temperature so you can solder along without waiting to heat hand irons. The unit is shown in 1978
I did use my plumbers furnace burning propane to heat smaller irons for the detail up close to the structure like the area in pic 1994.
Some of the pictures in the album show wire brushing the oxidation off the seam to be soldered so that you get a good bite. The bar solder I used on this project was all 50/50 lead/tin mix.
Even though I felt like I did a nice job for the owner on just my part of this project ,everywhere I looked were detailing issues that will lead to premature demise of a lot of expensive materials.
Stephen you should start posting pics and not feel daunted by the process.I was very tech unsavvy when I first started but found it real easy once I dove in.I read another thread one time where you were dreading doing it.
Happy Holidays Walter
Walter,
thank you,
2 more questions
a)------ I only see a single hose--------- so the torch runs an straight acytelene?---no mixing with a hose from an oxygen tank?
b) I have noticed previously that you use lead coated copper a lot. You have always seemed extrordinarily concientious----and since the lead coated copper lacks some of the aesthetic appeal of bare copper--there must be some over riding reason you are using it.
that is--lead coated copper possesses some attributes which make it MORE suitable in your applications then bare copper??????
sorry to pester you with these questions. the reason i ask----------- earlier this fall I re-lined some box gutters with EPDM--worked out well. I mentioned the project in passing to Mike Guertin who posts here occasionally---and who operated in New England. He mentioned that when he has done similar box gutter projects he has used sheet lead. that material has some appeal to me---because I had extensive experience with it in a previous career.----- in my area---the houses built with box gutters date to about 1915---and the material was galvanized sheet iron. obviously----any work on them now will involve introducing a material with no real tradition of use in this particular geographic area( lead, lead coated copper, copper)------ so in the future--- I want to suggest material with the best combination of' attributes", aesthetics, cost,and skill required which i either already possess,can adapt to new uses, or readily obtain.
thanks again,
Stephen
Stephen,
Yes it's a single source of fuel just like a plumbing torch-no oxygen required.In fact I use my No. 3 or 4 plumbing torch tip to flame solder with this set up sometimes-only when there is no chance of catching anything on fire.
I use a lot of lead coated copper here in coastal Maine for a couple reasons-in this case it was Archy specced as it is in other cases,sometimes it's the owners desire to use a dull finish instead of bright copper.
I don't mind using either one-they are both durable so it's really a matter of choice.
I'd shy away from using sheet lead for gutter linings because of it's softness which will lead to erosion corrosion sooner than a harder metal.
I'll send along a wooden gutter lining album which will show 20 oz. copper as the material used.
I used to do linings with 26 gauge galv. since it's the material that was used here as well,but have quoted copper for the last 8 or 10 years.
http://share.shutterfly.com/action/welcome?sid=8cbsmrhqzpQ¬ag=1
These gutters are called Boston pattern one piece Western fir. Your box gutters may be built up with several boards.
I'll take some pics of the radius attachment I made for my brake. I'm gonna have to hook it up next week to make some metal cornice.http://logancustomcopper.com
http://grantlogan.net/
http://www.chicagotribune.com/classified/realestate/homeimprovement/chi-010316outdoorrenovation,0,2786095.htmlstory?coll=chi-classifiedhomeimprove-utl
Gorgeous work! - just called DW over to watch the slide show. We both noticed on that last pic (#42) that the stitching wasn't even. Stiches 12 and 33 are about 9/32" - 5/16" wide instead of 1/4".
Whad'ya do, slip?
Forrest
Forrest,
You're a riot! There are a lot of factors that go into getting solder to flow properly. Heat of the iron,outside temp,proper fluxing,shape of the iron,tinning of iron,etc. are some of the variables.
Some days you can make it go like clockwork and others feel like it's your first day out.
I know you were being quite complimentary-but it doesn't look quite as good up close.
Best wishes, Walter
So true about the variables..I had a LOt of verticles to practis on before I got the hang of them..it can be daunting inside a box gutter.
Really love the thread Walter, you do some sweet magic!.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I have irriatable Vowel syndrome.
Duane,
Thanks a lot,but I'm only showing the same quality of work that you guys produce.
It's a lot of fun to swap pics and techniques.
Happy Holidays, Walter
Yeah it is fun. I just started using my awl a bit more on the job, I see you have made good use of it ( or them, I spied 2 at least).
I am still learning, and can devise some tricks of my own, but I keep thinking " what did they used to do before they had_______?" and kinda work from there.
Dale and I have both been really working at getting our production up to speed with newer tools/techniques...like a "turbo shear" from Malco for removing the old sheet metal, and also limiting how MANY tools we drag up on the scaffold, that just get in the way when idle.
As to soldering, of all of us in the crews, Grant has us beat for neatness and speed, Dale is next, and I THINK I am 3rd...LOL.
It can be HARD, cold copper, good wind blowing, torch malfunction, tips get wierd and flux gets diluted with sweat or snow..but, I really love it. I abhor building scaffold towers, and setting pump jacks, but once we get that outta the way, we really do have a good time doing the "real work".
We're on a restoration box gutter as we speak, 6 tiers high..don't drop anything, unless ya like to climb it again.
You have much more weather stamina than I seem to have, we don't do much on a serious snow day...but then again, I travel fairly far to the jobs, Grant and Dale are much closer.
I love your pics, they take forever to download here, but well worth the wait. Thank You.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I have irriatable Vowel syndrome.
Forrest,
Are you talking about the gutter job?
I did that alone in Jan. a few years ago-no wonder the weave is off!
>>>>>The bar solder I used on this project was all 50/50 lead/tin mix.I was taught to use 60/40 on LCC since the lead on the sheet mixes with the solder and creates a lead rich mix.http://logancustomcopper.com
http://grantlogan.net/
http://www.chicagotribune.com/classified/realestate/homeimprovement/chi-010316outdoorrenovation,0,2786095.htmlstory?coll=chi-classifiedhomeimprove-utl
Grant,
See thats the problem -I was never taught,just picked it up on my own.
I like 50/50 really well on l.c. copper.I've never gone back and found the seams or ribs broken from the solder being too weak,but our Summers are rarely over 90.
I'd like to find a nice old cornice brake with all the attachments,but until then I'll keep plugging along.
Happy Holidays, Walter
>>>>>>>>>>>I'd like to find a nice old cornice brake with all the attachments,but until then I'll keep plugging along.I never could find the attachmaents - they were made for my brake - so I made my own.http://logancustomcopper.com
http://grantlogan.net/
http://www.chicagotribune.com/classified/realestate/homeimprovement/chi-010316outdoorrenovation,0,2786095.htmlstory?coll=chi-classifiedhomeimprove-utl
You know, I've not seen how ya do that curved stuff yet, and what, it's 3 yrs?. Can't wait for the pics of the set up you use.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I have irriatable Vowel syndrome.
Here ya go.http://logancustomcopper.com
http://grantlogan.net/
http://www.chicagotribune.com/classified/realestate/homeimprovement/chi-010316outdoorrenovation,0,2786095.htmlstory?coll=chi-classifiedhomeimprove-utl
Ahhhh..Dale tried to esplain that, now I see. Thats purty damm smart rightthere.
That Boston solid wood gutter looks like a work of art, just machining the wood, I can dig that...I made some once for a contractor, never knew it got lined, I thought he just hung it up and I think I called him an idiot...whooops.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I have irriatable Vowel syndrome.
Grant,
Very ingenious! I've never done much cornice work yet,but lots of Boston pattern lined gutters over the years.
Hey Walter, we do a lock on our gutter bottoms and everything that ain't a true verticle..I mean to say I don't overlap and solder the whole thing, and I never rivet a gutter a pan.
On your curved example, of the trough, I'd be inclined to cut relief tabs and rely on solder with a lock seam and sweat the heck out of it.
We build a bevel board into the out face of the gutter to avoid "Ice push" ifthe downspouts plug up and she don't drain//a cant strip kinda doo dad.
I have a funny feeling here, we can do better, and faster..I'll get back with ya.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I have irriatable Vowel syndrome.
Duane,
A lot of these built in wooden gutters have no pitch-they're a level part of the cornice trim.You've got to figure that they drain most of the water that they receive,but also evaporate the last dregs.
Having said that-the logic from the old days and even now is to not thicken the joints with two more layers of metal (locked seam vs.flat and rivet).
It's worked well in this climate for a long while.
Regional differences are at work here.
Walter
I have the same considerations, especially the clay tile flue liner without a CMU encasement for heat/fire protection.
The assembly of cut/broken half blocks looks toosed together and potentially unsound....just my opinion based on one photo!
The low sloped roof would bug me too...looks prone to take on water and hold it rather than draining. The life span of the shingle will be short as they can not easily dry from the back side.
I see your nice metal work.....nice conditions for working!
.............Iron Helix
right on... the red cedars will be toast within 10 years at most, the wet / dry cycle is going to keep them perpetually wet on the back
to even have a chance, they'd need to go over Cedar Breather.. but really.. this roof screams for a nice copper or terne Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Cool slideshow - beautiful work! Totally outside my experience.
Looks cold - I'd be huddled around the torch.
What's the heavy u-shaped handle / tool?
Forrest - 65º here today - "freakishly warm" they call it
Forrest,
When are you going to treat us to another great thread!
Actually we got 5" of snow last Friday-the day I landed on the Island,but it warmed up on Sat. and nice right thru Wed. when I got on the boat.
Those iron U shaped tools are hand seaming irons made by Stortz in Philly.
I use them in lots of ways when doing metal work- holding,bending ,forming and holding up my soldering irons off the metal.
Thanks for the feedback. Happy Holidays Walter