I am a General Contractor in the state of Washington. I Have been asked to replace a 3/12 roof with a flat roof that can be used as a deck. I have installed a half dozen EPDM roofs over the years, some to be used as decks. I am interested in hearing about materials others have used. The EPDM scares me a little when taking the abuse of patio furniture, grills, etc…
Any help in my search would be appreciated
Trevor
Replies
Build your flat roof (well, with a bit of slope for drainage) then build a deck on top. The sleepers are tapered to the same slope as the roof, in reverse, so the deck ends up level, but you have drainage.
use advanced searc here for IPE + EPDM
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Last job PVC roofing and walking pad were speced.
Next time I would look at TPO roofing with the walking pad. PVC is harder to get for small residential products and is harder to bend around curbs and curves. Seems to be used mostly for commercial roofs around here.
Google PVC and TPO roofing and see what you find
We run the ameridrain dimple mat over the EPDM with a couple layers of hardi backer tile board glued together with Thinset and offset joints ten thin brick pavers glued to the hardi backer with thinset again. Works great, fire and debris proof, freeze tolerant, and very durable.
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"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
Im surprised more people dont use a single ply membrane that is made specifically for your application.
I install Duradek and it works really well for all roof/decks has a 30+ year history etc.
check it out http://www.duradek.com or go to http://www.duradeknorthwest.com to find a dealer in your area.
There are also other manufactures and installers that use the same kindof product, usually roofers install them so check your yellow pages.
I cant think of there names off the top of my head as i only deal with the one brand.
Do a search for something like (walkable roof membrane)
Im surprised more people dont use a single ply membrane that is made specifically for your application.
Here's part of the answer:
1. Can I install Duradek on my own? No. Duradek is installed by a network of fully trained applicators. They are trained in waterproofing techniques and building codes to ensure you are getting the best quality installation available. For this reason we are able to offer the industries best warranty. http://grantlogan.net/
"Because I really want to live in a country where the poor people are fat. "- Unidentified Indian Immigrant when asked why he wants to come to America
1. Can I install Duradek on my own? No. Duradek is installed by a network of fully trained applicators.
That is true for Duradek and some others. But there is atleast 1 brand out there that will sell directly to a homeowner or contractor. I forget who it is. And i would suspect there warranty is non-existant on the install.
The problem with selling it to somebody that hasnt been trained or experiance with pvc is the welding process. It isnt rocket science but to get it to look good does take some skill as-well as a good heat gun, most homeowners and contractors dont have the kind of heat gun we use, although i cant say a cheaper gun wouldnt work, i believe the volume of air is the biggest factor.
If the roof deck is over living space, profesional instalation would be recommended.
A couple of problems with Duradeck come to mind. I don't like using a product with a 5 year guarantee over a living space. With decks perhaps it's not as important. Duradeck also offers no protection against mechanical damage, and if you are going to run sleepers or pavers over it why pay the large premium in price over a two ply membrane?
this is a job you don't want to do again.
Do extensive research to choose a product that is applicable for the job. Here in Vancouver we have a similar climate(lots of rain and sometimes freezing temps)
First: solid base construction
Second: Ventilation
Third: Drainage
For decks we have used Schluter systems, never had a problem over many years (10+), since we did the first with the SChluter.
For finish look go with a material that will last (stone, tile)and is maintenance free
Trying to learn from the Condo Crisis, I just don't incorporate decks over living areas in my designs. On renos, where I have no choice, I do as you recommend using membrane and pavers.
if you know what you are doing it is not a problem. In Europe there are thousand of homes with flat roofs over living areas. Some even have gardens on it.
I would not voluntarely build a deck over a living area. Flat roofs are not my style.
Just offering an alternative is all. That is what the OP asked for.
Just curious what is the warranty on a epdm membrane, or a pvc roof membrane or a sleeper system over a membrane over a living space?What are the maintenance costs? What is the failure rate over a single ply PVC membrane?Does it have a 30+ year history?
Duradek has a 10 year warranty on there 60 mil product yes it is prorated.
As far as being over living space, a lot of systems are fine as long as the water has a open and clear path for drainage along with at least 1/4" per ft slope.
To often a parapet wall is specked with little scupper drains and poor slope details.
those kind of designs will make any system fail prematurely
and if you are going to run sleepers or pavers over it why pay the large premium in price over a two ply membrane?
Im not sure that the price is a premium over say epdm and a composite sleeper system. actually with the price of composite material id say we would be cheaper.
what is the labor costs to install a membrane and then install pavers or a sleeper system.?
If your looking at say cedar or redwood, well i dont know any body that cares to refinish the wood every other year. And id bet we would also be competitive on price for this also.Especialy if you figure in maintenace costs.
Now if you just dont like the look of the material that's fine. Some people don't.
But my customers that have been hesitant because of the looks really like the fact that five years later it looks exactly like it did the day I installed it. They have absolutely no time in maintenance and very little time in cleaning.
Its just an option.
Sorry if my tone was a bit abrupt it wasn't personal, I have just had a couple of bad experiences with Duradeck. One involved a large waterfront condo project that subsequently spent a year behind scaffolding having the decks and acrylic stucco replaced.
The product and its detailing seem to be geared to decks with drip edges and it works well in those situations, but that usually is not a good way to handle drainage over a living space where there are exterior walls below.
One other perhaps trivial complaint. All the Boomers now drink wine in the evening, and it is murder to get off Duradeck!
A lot of great advice out there thank you all for your imput and advice.
I was looking for other options to offer This customer, where the water proof membrane is also a finished and usable surface. In the past I have seen these products in the field but I am not sure of the product name. They look to be a fiberglass product. Unfortunately they reminded me of an insert shower pan. It may have been just the color selection but that is why I am trying to find out more.
This Project is for a local Inn, the deck will be over a dinning room. On a rainy day I don't want to be the guy refilling the customers water glasses!
Let me tell you what the customer would like. I build a waterproof 20'x40' deck over a car port on some spec townhouses of mine. The Deck had a 1/4" per foot slope. I laid an EPDM membrane down, poured 1 1/2" concrete over that then used a stamp-able overlay. This is what he would like for his Inn.
Has anyone used a product called Polymide or Polymite?
Thanks
Beautiful deck peteshlagorTrevor
"Ya know they crucified the last perfect carpenter."
Hey no problem:)
One involved a large waterfront condo project that subsequently spent a year behind scaffolding having the decks and acrylic stucco replaced.
I'm sorry to hear about that. Was it a direct connection to failure of the Duradek? The install of the Duradek? or was it the stucco? justcurious for my own personal knowledge.
I did a large rebuild on a retirement home with stucco and PVC membrane on the deck (not Duradek) Turns out it was the flashing installation on the parapet walls that had failed taking the deck with it . It was quite a mess and the building was only about 5 years old.
All the Boomers now drink wine in the evening, and it is murder to get off Duradeck.
I haven't experienced a wine stain, my cleaning list does not have it on there.
No to be fair it wasn't the Duradeck itself which was to blame. It was a combination of poor detailing and installation of the decking and acrylic stucco that allowed water to penetrate the walls and ceilings of the units below. The decks and stucco were being installed at the same time, so some decks had their membrane and drip edge already in place and the stucco guys just butted up to it as best they could. The Architect I was working for had to cough up some compensation, but no one really took responsibility. When I first saw the building plans they had leak written all over them. Completely inappropriate design for our region.
I'm confused, you say that duradek is a PVC membraneThen you say that it's better than a PVC membraneHow is it better than PVC membrane? What's different?
Barry E-Remodeler
Duradek is a PVC membrane. It is basically the same as a "roof" PVC membrane.
It is fabric reinforced for strength, it has color for appearance, and texture added for slip resistance as well as UV and mold inhibitors.
Not sure where i said it is better than a PVC membrane?
"Just curious what is the warranty on a epdm membrane, or a pvc roof membrane or a sleeper system over a membrane over a living space?What are the maintenance costs? What is the failure rate over a single ply PVC membrane?Does it have a 30+ year history?Duradek has a 10 year warranty on there 60 mil product yes it is prorated."Maybe you didn't say that, but it seemed like what you were saying here.We recently did a masterbdrm deck that was speced with PVC. I'm just curious if there is something better out there.We used a walking pad glued down to the PVC. I don't see how PVC could be used by itself for walking. It was slippery as snot when it was raining or snowing. My roofer would prefer TPO the next time, so I'm curious if and why duradek makes a better covering
Barry E-Remodeler
I guess I didn't differentiate between a "roofing" PVC and a "walkable" PVC like duradek.
A walkable PVC membrane is textured for slip resistance. our product is ADA compliant for slip resistance as other walkable membranes probably are too.
To say it in another way Duradek is a roofing PVC membrane that has been enhanced for use on walkways balconies etc. with color, texture and other goodies as I described in the last post.
The PVC that you speak of was probably a roofing membrane, hence the reason it was very slippery.
I'm curios what was the "walking pad" that was put over top of your PVC? Only thing I can think of is what is used on commercial roofs for access walkways to equipment.
Got any pictures?
I believe that's what it's used for. it was speced by the Architects on this job. These are the only photos I can find right now:
View Image
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Barry E-Remodeler
That looks like interesting stuff. I've never seen it. It does look like it would hold a lot of dirt with the deep grooves. Might be hard to keep clean?
It,s only been on since last fall, so we'll see. There's also a coupla trees around the place that drop stuff on the roof.Be interesting to see how it holds up
Barry E-Remodeler
Thats exactly what i was thinking it was. Never seen it used for a balcony like that before.
On a side note: Ive never seen a curb that high for a door threshold. 6"?
Is that allowed by code?
"Is that allowed by code?"<G> That's why I took that picture with the tape measure. I had to email it to the building inspector so the whole office could debate it. There is more than a few emails flying back and forth between the BIs and the architects. The jury is still out. Here's the pertinent code we are dealing with:Exception: The landing at an exterior doorway shall not be more than 7 ¾ inches (196 mm) below the top of the threshold, provided the door, other than an exterior storm or screen door does not swing over the landing.
....The floor or landing at exterior doors other than the exit door required by Section R311.4.1 shall not be required to comply with this requirement but shall have a rise no greater than that permitted in Section R311.5.3. .......This door is off of a 2nd floor master bedroom and has limited access. This house had a lot of commercial elements. Right below this deck is a curved curtain wall. There are some photos in the photo section under "International Style Architecture" I believe
Barry E-Remodeler
....The floor or landing at exterior doors other than the exit door required by Section R311.4.1 shall not be required to comply with this requirement but shall have a rise no greater than that permitted in Section R311.5.3. .......
Well I'd think your safe, but I've had to "argue" things that I was clearly within the code before to.
Good luck to you.
I am working on a similar deck over a porch. Using a locking aluminun decking called Lock dry. A competing product is Arid deck. Check them out. I have the product but have not yet installed.
Thanks,
I will take a look at their product.TrevorTrevor
"Ya know they crucified the last perfect carpenter."