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Flat Roof – Leak – HELP!!!

| Posted in General Discussion on July 1, 2000 04:38am

*
I’m visiting from Cook’s Talk – desperately need advice other than “New Roof” (no money) or “Remove part of the ceiling to take a look.”

My roof guy is about to give up – twice we thought the roof was fixed, no leaks the next rain, but the following rain it started again in the same place. Not as much, but same place. Water does not puddle on the roof, and it has been sealed around all the parapet walls, swamp cooler, etc., as well as seams in the roofing paper.

Is there ANY way to figure out where a leak is coming from without tearing up the ceiling?

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  1. Guest_ | Jun 30, 2000 12:11am | #1

    *
    leaf lady - I was about to ask for more info (and I still will) to wild-guess this one, but I re-read your post and noted that you have parapet walls.

    More detail please on what the wall construction is, roof type (Built-up?) where the leak is, but if it is around the perimeter and a qualified roofer has checked things out I would look carefully at the parapet wall construction - Caps? Coping? Wall construction above the roof? reglets? cants? etc.

    A better physical description, including how the water normally drains (to center? to edges? scuppers, etc.) will help. PS How old is it?

    PS - I know what a swamp cooler is - do you really have one? Or is it a compressor? Where on the roof, etc. etc.

    Jeff

    b Post more, get more

    1. Guest_ | Jun 30, 2000 12:16am | #2

      *sounds like a tar and gravel roof..and tearing up your CEILING may or may not tell you where the leak ORIGINATES.. it may only tell you where it comes thru the roof sheathing..if your roof is tar and gravel.. an experienced tar and gravel guy has to go up with a roof scraper and start looking..sweep the loose gravel, investigate all of the usual suspects , scrape some areas , look for blisters, fishmouths , or other failures...experience is the best tool....there are also some devices and techniques that can help determine roof leaks in built-up roofing... but I am not familiar with them...sometimes it is just time to get a new roof...

  2. leaf_lady | Jun 30, 2000 12:42am | #3

    *
    Hey, thanks for answering - Yes it really is a swamp cooler. I live in Albuquerque, where we KNOW our swamp coolers.

    Roof is tar & gravel over roofing paper or felt. About 10 years old (I've owned it about 8 years), & leaks more than it should for that age, so I'm told. Stucco house, parapet walls about 6 inches above surface of roof, no caps. Roof guy found some of the seams weren't sealed right when they were installed. I have also been told prolonged dry spells can harden and crack the tar. Is that true? Roof drains (canales) on all sides, mostly drains well to the edges, no puddles after rains. There is a low spot (damp, no puddle) near one interior leaky spot, could that drain all the way to the center of the house, and come in between the walls? (Water leaks under the base of the wall, also comes in between the paint and the drywall or sheetrock or whatever.) There are repair marks on the ceiling where it appears the previous owners had the same problems in the same places. They have left the area, so I can't ask.

    Oh, I'd LOVE a new roof, if somebody would tell me a way for a retired lady to make some money, short of robbing a bank, I'd be happy to have one. :-)

  3. Guest_ | Jun 30, 2000 02:07am | #4

    *
    Tar and Gravel (Built Up)Roofs last only 7-10 years. Time to replace, leaf lady.

    1. Guest_ | Jun 30, 2000 02:56am | #5

      *Home Equity Loan. And in my opinion...the only way they make sense is only for the cost of the repairs...no vacations or paying off the credit cards! Jeff

      1. Guest_ | Jun 30, 2000 03:55am | #6

        *Your overall description, particularly the old damage, would tend to suggest that it is time to reroof. Possibly, if Albuquerque is generally arid, it may not have been much of a roof in the first place. Scooter (below) is right in the sense that a 'quick-and-dirty' 2-ply or 3-ply built-up roof might only last 7-10 years i butI have also seen a high-quality 4-ply BUR last 20 years. A ballasted roof (with gravel) also makes it particularly difficult to find leaks and you may want to consider an unballasted roof with a UV reflective fibrated coating to reduce solar damage. I know that this isn't what you wanted to hear, but 10 years to failure for what may have been a poor installation in the first place isn't unusual. When re-roofing, you need to establish some sort of continuity up and over the parapet walls to prevent water from penetrating the perimeter.Before you proceed, double-check any roof penetrations - conduit feeds, vent stacks etc.Sorry in advance for this recommendation ... Don't rob any banks! Get some estimates from several roofers - it might not be as bad as you think.You can also click right here for related archive discussions.Jeff

        1. Guest_ | Jun 30, 2000 05:20am | #7

          *leaf lady, As much as I'd like to help you, the sad fact is that a leak in a tar and gravel flat roof is probably the hardest leak to find, even when you're on your hands and knees with your face 6 inches from the gravel you have swept back, realizing you're going to need bifocals soon, seeing a hundred suspects and knowing it's probably none of them, it could be coming from 30 ft. away from the ceiling leak,(deep sigh)...............let alone trying to diagnose over the internet.Assuming your roofer has exhausted all the visible and likely trouble areas, my next step(short of a new roof) would be to sweep all the gravel back and coat with a resaturant. This is assuming you have a pitch(coal tar)-based roof. You can confirm this by smelling the roof. If it smells like creosote, it is a pitch roof.By the way, if it is a pitch roof your roofer should be using coal tar-based roof products, not asphalt roof products. THIS IS CRITICAL! They don't work well together.After the gravel is swept back, recoat the roof membrane with the resaturant, using a 3-knot roof brush. Apply liberally. It never really dries, so you have to put the gravel back on(it protects the coal tar from the sun's UV rays) You probably will have to add gravel, the dried out membrane is probably due to UV degradation from thin spots in the gravel.When it comes to flat roofs, there is no substitute for knowlege, experiance, and honesty. I hope your roofer has all three.JohnP.S. A well installed and maintained coal tar roof can last upwards of 40 yrs.

          1. Guest_ | Jun 30, 2000 05:25am | #8

            *b TVMDCI agree w/Scooter: 7-10 years for a BUR is about it: if you could imagine walking on peanut-brittle, that's what ultimately happens to a BUR roof. Chasing leaks is impossible due to the numerous plies so the point-of-water-entry can be 20-30 feet away from where it comes in below.However, rather than reroof, there is a liquid membrane composed of coloidal clay which is screeded or rolled over a spudded BUR roof. (Spudding removes the ballast or rock). It can be applied thicker in low spots and around roof penetrations and comes with a 5-year warranty. After 5 years, it can be covered again. It costs about half of a new BUR.I'm chasing-down the name and will advise tomorrow.

          2. Guest_ | Jun 30, 2000 06:58am | #9

            *No trips to Fiji?8-)

  4. Scott_Brookes | Jun 30, 2000 01:26pm | #10

    *
    I always love these discussions on flat roofs. I'm amazed at the amount of misinformation.
    Flat roofs only lasting 7-10 years? Yikes what kind of *#"! do you guys install down there. Up here in the Great White North (Canada eh) flat roofs (4 ply BUR) that go through hot summers and cold winters last 20 -25 years if installed properly.
    Rolled roofing purchased at the lumber yards will only last 7-10 years.

    leaf lady, First of all there are no seams in a tar & gravel roof. The 3-4 layers of felt paper are offset from one another with asphalt in between the layers. A flood coat of asphalt is installed on top of the entire roof and 3/8" round gravel is pushed into the hot asphalt. What you should see on your roof is round gravel imbedded into black asphalt (or tar) There should not be any visible seams.

    Sounds like you might have rolled roofing? Does it look like 3 foot wide rolls with small stone that looks like an asphalt shingle? If this is the case you will have seams and the ONLY solution is a new roof. You cannot use resaturant on rolled roofing and coatings do not work.

    A qualified flat roofer should be able to locate any problems in a tar & gravel roof. The gravel is scraped away from the top layer of asphalt exposing the top layer of the felt. Any splits, blisters holes etc. would then be visible. Leaks will generally not travel great distances. Water that gets through the roofing material will come through the cracks in the roof boards or plywood and stain the drywall below it.

    You said you do not have any caps on the parapets. Felt and asphalt (tar & gravel) roofs require metal flashing to protect the exposed felts on the parapets. Prolonged dry spells will not crack the tar. The top of the roofing must be protected from the sun UV with gravel, if it is not protected then it will crack. Does the roofing go over the tops of the parapets or are they bare?

    You mentioned the leak is appearing at the base of the wall? You might also look into the outside of your walls. Any cracks in the stucco? Any windows with poor caulking or bad sills? Is the leak appearing at the ceiling ( not just the repairs made previously) or mid wall and the bottom?

    By the way, what is a swamp cooler?

  5. Guest_ | Jun 30, 2000 06:22pm | #11

    *
    ... See Scott's comment below that you probably have 90-lb roll roofing - this is definitely at the end of it's life if so ... It occurred to me but I forgot to mention it - sorry.

    Jeff

  6. leaf_lady | Jun 30, 2000 08:48pm | #12

    *
    Thanks - got some good ideas, I'll get with my roof guy and see where to go from here. Home Equity loan - I wish. already got one, have to pay half of it off before I can get another - banks rules.

    Swamp cooler: aka evaporative cooler, aka (from a friend from Tulsa) Goat box. Water drips through fibrous pads and air is sucked in from the outside through the pads to cool it, & down through the duct work. They should be the "State Appliance" of New Mexico. Albuquerque is very dry (average 8 in. of precip. a year, low humidity) and swamp coolers work very well.

  7. Guest_ | Jul 01, 2000 04:34am | #13

    *
    b TVMDC

    Dear leaf lady, I agree with Jeff that Modified Bitumen is the best solution for a flat roof. I also have no use for a BUR: I've spent too much time trying to find leaks in them. While a MB roof may be around double the initial cost of a BUR, you can get 2-3 times the useful life with the added benefit of extremely simple leak chasing.

    As for the product I mentioned yesterday, here is the info:

    MFGR: Western Colloid Products, 800-464-8292. It is an emulsion and polyester mesh system designed to cover existing (failing) roofs. They offer an elastic cement for preping the roof penetrations, the emulsion/fiberglass layer, and a reflective coating (which in white) blocks 90% of the sun's UV rays. While your annual rainfall is very low, the summer sun and temperature swings are brutal to a roofing system. They offer an elastomeric product to allow for the expansion/contraction the roof system will suffer.

    If applied over a ballasted BUR, it is about half the cost of a modified roof. If applied over sheet goods (cap sheet) it is about 1/3 the cost of MB.

    While a tear-off is really the best solution, you may find this a cost-effective solution (no pun intended) provided there is a roofer familiar with the system. Check their 800 number to locate a distributor/roofer in your area. And follow Jeff's tip on the parapet walls.

    Good luck!

  8. leaf_lady | Jul 01, 2000 04:38am | #14

    *
    I'm visiting from Cook's Talk - desperately need advice other than "New Roof" (no money) or "Remove part of the ceiling to take a look."

    My roof guy is about to give up - twice we thought the roof was fixed, no leaks the next rain, but the following rain it started again in the same place. Not as much, but same place. Water does not puddle on the roof, and it has been sealed around all the parapet walls, swamp cooler, etc., as well as seams in the roofing paper.

    Is there ANY way to figure out where a leak is coming from without tearing up the ceiling?

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