Hi Everybody,
Attached are pics of a small addition that I’ve built for a client.
The pitch of the roof is 1/4″ per foot over 8′-6″. Nearly flat.
Heres the question: How much should a rubber membrane roof cost?
The only roofer that has responded diligently, has given a quote of $2000.00 for the rubber roof. The county requires a class A or B roof system.
The roof deck measures 9’6″ by 13′-0″. That’s about $120/sf.
Is that the going rate for a rubber roof system?
Or is the roofing contractor going for a home run with my client?
FYI – Per my agreement with the HO, it is specifically not my responsibility to install roofing, or even qualify roofing bids, or solicit roofing bids. However, after hearing about his trials in finding a roofer, I am wondering membrane roofs really cost this much.
Thanks
Replies
They're easy to do.
Why don't you do it yourself - with a little coaching from here .
After hearing the pricing from other roofers, I'm tempted to do just that.
I was originally going to shingle the addition, until the HO decided to go with a flat roof. When he made that decsision, I told him I wasn't comfortable roofing that, so we decided to eliminate that part from my contract.
Might be a tuff sale now saying that I could do it.
Like Seeyou just said there are tricky spots where the upper roof trim intersects your roof, but the rest is relatively easy. You'd need a helper for gluing it down , but with some guidance you'd do fine.
That sounds high, but more details are in order. Is the roofer installing insulation or recovery board under the rubber or is he gluing it to the sheathing? There's some tricky flashing where the rakes of the steep roof intersect it.
There's also the problem with that size project in that it isn't a full days work, but almost.
Here's my price:
Drip edge - $44.16
060 epdm - $505.11
wall flashing - $425.00
So that gives us a total of $974.27 for the basics.
Recovery board would add $105 or 2" of polyiso would add $235.
I'd add about $200 to this job because of the size of it unless it was a regular customer because of the small size of it.
Also, the roofer might not use that much EPDM and he might be charging for the whole roll if he thinks he'll have to sit on the remainder for a while.
My evaluation is that it's a little high, but I'm having to assume a lot.
http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
I haven't read the roofers proposal yet. However, we asked for rubber glued directly to the sheathing.
I don't know what recovery board is.
We are achieving R-30 insulation with Blowin batts in the joists, so we didn't see a need for insulation boards on top of the sheathing.
Because of location, Wildland fire danger is a little higher than in town, so red ink from building dept calls for class A or B roofing.
I can't honestly say that I completely understand roof classifications, or what may be necessary to get a rubber roof to meet a 1 hr or better rating.
I've also considered shortening the roof OH on that side where it meets the rake of the steep roof, if it would make for a better finished product.
I'd be adding more than you for the flashing, because that detail where the front red fascia intersects it is tricky, and this place looks pretty rough and rugged on the siding/trim details. I'd have to take some siding off to get flashing in right and I don't think that stuff will be salvageable for replacement. Probably would spend more time on flashing than on installing the rubber.The client made a major mistake gong with a flat roof on this. It really uglifies the house, while making the roof more expensive.First glance makes two grand sound high, but maybe not - no t knowing right where it is.
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Piffin, I agree with all of your points, and made some of the same arguments in the design phase.
One thing though, and the pics are deceptive here, all siding has been cut back by more than enough for the roof wall intersection. The roofers all also know that I will be there for any wood removal necessary. (I am doing more work in other parts of the house while the other trades are working on the addition)
PS, there are other window openings to be cut out when the windows show up. That should help with the looks. I hope.
I was thinking that background terrain looked like Northern CO, so I looked at your profile!;)
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Bellevue, CO
Is that a duck blind..............just kidding.......
But I made it look like da pitcher, boss.
(All in good fun)
was thinking more on teh install process here.The way an EPDM is glued down, is to place the sheet and rough trim it, then fold back half of it, and roll the contact cement on the deck and on the back of the rubber. With that place being so small and high up, I'd do it in thiords instead of half. Each step would take the same trying time before rolling out.So that little bitty roof would take the same time labout wise as a roof 3-4 times as large.And glad to know you would handle the carpentry, but the flashing work would still be time intensive relative tot he size of the roof.And wet contact cement is slick as snot on a calf's snout. I don't know what fall protection they plan, but that might be figured into the cost too. I'm not trying to argue or get too detailed, but I can see reasons why the cost may need to be that high, so I don't think this is a scam price, just nudging the high end of the range.
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where doyou buy your materials your prices seem out rageous
I buy from 3-4 different suppliers. I don't need to defend my prices to you, but I'm very competitive in my market. http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
at first glance it's seems terrible.
i have some 1500-2000 sf roofs put on in the 1.75 to 2.00 a foot.
but as i look at this,looks like there might be some travel time,the size of it is so small,that it's going to take the better part of a day,and they can put my 1500sf roof on in a day,and the flashing will probably take as much time as if the were doing my 1500 building.
so for a roofer to send out a couple guys for a day and materials,i think he's a little high,but i suspect he's not driving a hummer to the job site.........
as far as you doing it,actually laying the rubber is pretty straight forward,it's the details you have to watch.
i'm with the others,the guy should of pitched the roof for shingles.larry
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your roof measurements aren't as critical OR as reasonable as you might think.
1)I don't have to buy rubber buy the full roll, however you need to know that I would have to buy a piece of rubber more than twice the size of your roof area in order to do that roof.
rubber comes in 10ft. or 20 ft. wide rolls--a 10 ft. roll won't work on this roof because I need extra to cove up the wall--and I need extra to over run the edge
similar consideration for the 13 ft. dimension.
so- i need minimum about a 20x15 piece----and my supplier may require me to buy 20x25 as a minimum
or- maybe I have a big enough piece saved from something else--or maybe I don't-- doesn't matter- i have to assume that I don't---so any way you slice it-- I am pricing based on a 20x25 roll.
2)jobs like this have been my bread and butter for 20 plus years--basic economics lesson-- the PITA factor
this roof has a high pain in the #### factor relative to it's size.
Basically-a 3 hour project usually earns as much or more than a full day project--- 3 one day projects earn much more than a single 3 day project and so on.
cut to the chase-- I have done many little rubber roofs this size----and I ALWAYS have to tear off the existing roof and clean up debris besides---- the same size roof, including tear-off and clean up is a one day project for one man---a second guy will just get in the way on a roof that size.
since there is no tear-off-- I think I would be there and gone by 1:00 and a lot of that time would be spent waiting for the adhesive to flash off
BTW--- I don't know what the deck surface is-or if solvent based or latex adhesive is going to be used-- but my experience is that gluing to plywood works ok'ish-- but gluing to OSB is NOT good
Best bet-- screw down some insulboard with stress plates and glue to that-- that whole procedure will take less than an hour add next to nothing to the cost and make a MUCH better install.
Best wishes,
stephen
Thanks Hazlett,
All good points, and well taken.
Stephen,
I agree that 1/2" high density fiberboard should be used to avoid any splinters from saw cut edges possibly puncturing the membrane down the road.
Your use of rubber is different than how I would approach it though.
I'd need a 10' x 15 ' sheet to adhere to the field - just abutting the wall.
Then I'd use a 2' strip to glue onto the field rubber and up the wall - using up some cutoffs from prior work and get paid back for "waste ".
If I were doing that alone I'd want to make dam*ed sure there was going to be no chance of wind that day !
Walter
The wind is scheduled to rise every day after lunch there, so just get an early start.I'd do the same waster free method as you, but still hate that intersect with the other fascia to have to flash. That is bad design detail.
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Yup but the roofer has to deal with whats there . I've done plenty of poorly thought out details in both newer and old homes - as I'm sure you have too.
Oh yeah - I'm just taking it up as part of the explanation why this job is costing high
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walter--- the way I see it is that the biggest benefit to EPDM is the ability to minimize or eliminate seams on a flat/low slope situation. so--- I don't want to design a seam ,needlessly into a roof that tiny--in order to use up a scrap. I would figure--gluing that 2x13 scrap of rubber--uses up about $25 worth of EPDM---BUT it adds a 13 ft. long seam needlessly(in my opinion) AND it adds much more than $25 worth of labor. I also wouldn't go 2 ft. up the wall here-- but I accept that in Maine or Colorado you might well have a 2 ft. drift in that nasty little pocket to deal with--just not here! probably should point out that I tailor what I do to a pretty specific locale--- I might do some things a bit differently if I was located even 40 minutes North East of here--as that would put me smack into the snow belt and different considerations----- heck I frequently suggest different roofing materials for highly similar/nearly identical houses directly opposite each other on the same street-----based on overhanging tree limbs, presence of children in the house, prevailing winds etc.. BTW--- I see print on a screen pretty well---- but my eyes don't pick up pictures on a computer screen all that well--- I don't know exactly what's going on back in that pocket based on the picture------ but I have 2 ideas--- one is a pain in the rear problem detail with a small inside cornersplice or pig ear detail AND an outside corner---- the other is no real problem at all. Best wishes,
stephen
Everybody sees things a bit differently obviously.
It's rare you can do an EPDM roof without seams , so I feel comfortable that I could make this foolproof. The membrane I proposed would go 1' on the field and 1' up the wall.
Instead of making a large piece of scrap rubber by buying a larger piece and billing the customer accordingly - I'd use a scrp piece from another job and save them some coin.
The way that roof is configured I'd also prefer to install it using the 10' roll , and the 2' later.
Everyone has preferred methods , but if the OPwas thinking of doing it himself , he'd have an easier time not having two folds to keep it going without puckers.
gotta differ with you walter,
I strongly disagree on how often you can do an EPDM roof with no seams.LOCALLY- I almost NEVER need a seam--since I cut my pieces from 20x50 rolls--almost NEVER
typically- it's a roof about 10x14 with one edge abbuting a wall-- there are simply no seams-it's self flashing in that I can cove it up the wall and under the siding these are almost always 1 story kitchen bump outs-- usually there isn't even a witches hat(waste stack boot) required. It's just a beautifull seamless ,un-violated 10x14 piece of perfect rubber- no seams,no penetrations--perfection! It simply never would have occurred to me to intentionally put a 13 ft. seam in the o.p.s roof! If a prospective customer calls me with a flat roof-- i know it's been a problem for them forever. Pointing out the advantages of a seamless membrane--- bingo! they are sold i just don't see how putting that seam there---saves the customer any money at all---since the very negligible material savings are waaaaaay offset by additional labor AND the fact that they needlessly have a seam in their "seamless" rubber roof. You thrifty yankees!--what's that saying about "penney wise and pound......"? hope the physical is a-OK,
Best wishes,
stephen
Stephen,
We'll have to agree to disagree on this point.
As far as your quote - that makes it seem like my method is a slipshod affair which I can heartily assure you it is not.
I won't bother to debate the benefits of seam / no seam since I can see it's not worth the effort.
Walter
I'm starting to like TPO better all the time because of the welded seams and narrower widths.http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
Grant,
Do you need to become factory certified to install those products ? I've never used them but can see some of the benefits - color being foremost I would guess .
Walter
I'm starting to get some interest in this TPO too
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Do you need to become factory certified to install those products ?
I have certification for one brand. I buy and install several brands. There is one brand that I can't buy without certification. The others don't have that restriction. There doesn't seem to be any warranty for residential use, certified or not. It's the same with EPDM.
The commercial warranties are purchased by the sq ft and accompanied by an inspection by a factory rep. I can see where driving a half day to inspect a 10'x13' roof would be troublesome and expensive which is probably the reason for no warranties on residential and I imagine residential use is a small percentage of the total.http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
I can see the advantages , but for a small outfit like me I'm not sure I'll get involved.
Flat seam and EPDM will handle any jobs I'll likely get - and refer others if need be.
for a small outfit like me I'm not sure I'll get involved.
That's part of the attraction for me. The rolls are smaller and easier to handle and less to buy for small jobs and less left over at the end of the job to store.
The only tool you need beyond what you have is a welding gun. I think they run about $400. I bought a Sievert and the Leister owners that have used it seem to prefer the Seivert. Don't know about reliability. http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
Grant,
Thanks for the reply , I missed it before.
I see the hot air welders in all the catalogs , but I'm not sure I want to become certified for as little flat work as I do now.
I've been asked to redo the flat garage roof on the house in the mighty Penobscot thread.
I've never bought and installed a tapered insulation system. Theres a pitch roof on it now - don't ask me how I know ! But it ponds heavily in the middle. Thought if I ran a tapered system from 10" to 4" I could use .060 with no problems , but maybe I'll look into TPO for here too.
You're not the only tool " ho.
Walter
I've never bought and installed a tapered insulation system.
Purchasing the right components is the hard part. It comes in 4'x4' panels and typically rises an inch across each panel. I had to use some that gained 1/2" in 4' once, but it was special order.
Typically, if I'm adding slope, but not insulating, I start with 1/2" to 1 1/2" followed by 1 1/2" to 2 1/2". Then I lay a 2" thick 4x8 sheet and repeat the tapered process.
If you don't tear the pitch roof off, you'll have to vent EPDM to let any off gassing out. I don't think that's a problem with TPO.http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
Grant,
Thanks again for helping with questions with stuff I haven't done.
I thought some places made it job specific - give them the roof plan and they'll make it to go just for that sized roof.
Or maybe I was dreaming about being back in Amsterdam again !!
give them the roof plan and they'll make it to go just for that sized roof.
Yeah, they do that for larger roofs you can provide prints for, but they don't custom make anything. They do a layout as I described, mark it on the plans and sell you the pieces I described above. I'm pretty sure there is a charge for this.
Most of the times I use tapered insulation, it's not that complicated where we can't figure it out pretty easily.
We just did a half round porch where we had to create a "gutter" around the radius to be drained thru the columns rather than let any water run off the edge or stand in the middle. It actually works well and wasn't that much of a problem. Just a lot of insulation cutting.http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
Thanks Grant , I'll be looking into it more as time goes on.
Grant-- I have no experience with TPO--- but once it is hot air welded---is it essentially "seamless"---similar to the factory joins on an EPDM roll?.
stephen
is it essentially "seamless"---similar to the factory joins on an EPDM roll?.
Yup. The seams are visible, but there's no getting them apart if they're welded right.
We throw away less scrap with TPO. We can get it in 10' and 6' wide rolls.
We just did a tan TPO roof. It's very visible and it actually looks pretty good, color wise - not as hard on the eyes as the stark white.
We usually use rubber scraps to temporarily dry in built-in gutter jobs, but I'm like Walter, I hate to throw away material.http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
Walter--- you have my apologies if that is the impression I gave you---- I would hope you know me enough to know that wouldn't be my aim---ever---in a discussion with you. I was explaining my reasoning---which is to basically accentuate the positive attributes of EPDMprimarily its "seamlessness" Branden and I did a project last august-- i just looked up the records-among other things it involved tile repairs on a Ludowicci roof and 5 seperate rubber roofs ranging in size from 3x7 to a piece30x26----- i am glad I checked again because that was the first time I bought a 30x50 roll---- so counting paprapet walls-we did a roof 30x26, no seams except for 2 drainsso that's the reference i'm coming from---- I don't see any upside---cost or other wise---in seaming a 10x13 roof since it is easily avoidable
Best wishes,
stphen
Stephen, It just struck me a little off , but I'm fine now - no problem.
I know we , along with most all here , take great pride in our craftsmanship. Techniques vary , but our end results are usually quite good.
I would liken that bond near the wall to a metal flashing coming down onto a shingled roof. The water all runs away from that point - there is no ponding , so in my mind it's equally as good as one piece.
We just approach jobs a bit differently.
You'll be gearing back up next week I think I remember you saying.
We're finally getting some relief from Winter.
Best, Walter
Can you fill us in on what happened to this roof ??
Yep, I did cut the overhang back a little till it was flush with the adjoining fascia.
The roofers showed up hours before a big snowstorm, and laid down the rubber with ballast to protect it until the weather cleared. After the weather cleared, they finished the job, Going up the wall with a separate piece that they seamed onto the flat part. They didn't go up as far as I would have liked, but we've had two serious snowstorms since that day, and no leaks to report.
The rest of the project has been on hold due to insane wind and or snow every time I schedule to install the windows and finish the siding.
I'll get some pics, if the weather ever clears.
Thanks for the update .