It seems to me that I read about a flexible gas line that was code-approved a few years ago. Does anyone use such a product? I need to run three additional gas lines through the attic in a 40 year old house, tying into the furnace line. Need to run to the garage, new greenhouse room and outside for a grilling area. So my questions are:
1. What material to use to run around trusses, joists, etc in the attic? Flexible much preferred.
2. What to use for outside portion. It will exit the end gable, run down to the ground and then underground to the grilling area. Should I try to get plastic for the buried portion or rely on coating a metal line and cathodic protection? Our soil is mostly sand, not that aggressive.
Nick Andrews
“They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.”- Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759
Replies
Lots of product available, take a look at this site.
http://www.omegaflex.com
http://www.toolbase.org/Technology-Inventory/Plumbing/corrugated-stainless-steel-tubing
Don't be afraid to spend up for a plumber for your gas work.
I might as well get some quotes from a plumber, but they are all so busy doing new houses around here that I bet they will be waaaaay above reasonable. The regular homebuilders can't even get them on time! I have seen people use black iron where they can get it up there and connect it with flex at the angles. I just don't like that because it introduces a lot of joints to possibly leak. I plan on adding another 6-8" of insulation to the attic at some point, the 40 year old stuff up there barely covers the tops of the 2x4 lower truss chords!Nick Andrews"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."- Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759
Usually the flex systems are manufacture specific and require certification of that system.
It's one of the areas you just can't be to careful about.
Hey it was just a little leak- BOOM.
With some good planning you can run hard pipe. Be sure to pressure test. Casting flaws in fittings etc make even the best intentions fail.
A friend of mine that is a retired arson investigator who now works as an "expert" witness for insurance companies, sent me an email a while back regarding CSST lines. It seems that they are very succeptible to blowing up from lightning strikes and insurance investigators are using this as an out for paying claims. I cant find the link to the pdf at this moment but if i do, I will repost.
So, if lightning strikes my house and the flex gas line (installed by a pro plumber) fails or explodes, I have no insurance claim???? Help me understand that one.... really????
because the wall thichness is small enough and since the flex(metal) is a conductor, a lightning stike could rupture the flex causing an explosion. The Insurance Co's are always looking for a way out, ask anyone affected by Katrina!
Geoff
Geoffrey said it..the insurance companies are looking for an out whenever they possibly can. If they can show that a product is statistically more susceptible to explosion during a lightning strike they will do whatever they can to pass the blame (liability) to the manufacturer of that product.Its the same idea as mismatched breakers in a panel. My investigator friend says that their is no evidence of say a seimins (sp?) breaker in a SD box causing a fire, but the ins co's will go after that because the product is not approved for that purpose (and was most likely installed by an amature). Is it right, probably not, but that the game they play. As for the article, It will dig through my achives tonight and find it.
Well, I talked to the local BI yesterday. He said copper is not allowed locally due to sulfur content. Funny thing though, now that I think about it. Copper is used all the time for the line to the pilot lights in furnaces, gas fireplaces, gas log sets, etc. And I have seen aluminum used for that as well. I used to install tons of gas products when I worked at the stove store years ago. The city here uses PE lines for the distribution up to the meter, but won't let contractors fuse the yellow to the older black stuff. What a waste to make them wait for a city crew to come do it.I guess I will just suck it up and work with black iron. At least if I do it soon, the temps will be okay in the attic! Lightning can melt the black iron like nothing too. I bet it USED TO provide better grounding, but with mostly plastic in use now, even that benefit is gone. Hell, they even use plastic water line up to the meter valves now as well. Thanks for all the advice!Nick Andrews"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."- Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759
Nick....I am a code official and csst is all I see these days in NY for new construction. It is true that you are suppose to be certified for puchase and installation of the product and there are many installation requirements for the product but I have had no mishaps in th 10 years I have been a code official. I think the product works very well if installed correctly.
I think we can find piping sizes for you if your having problems with the calcs.
BTU ratings distance and pressure. Also check out of the meter to the attic? size pipe
Hey if you come across the link will ya send it to me.
There is a class action lawsuit against CSST, but I could not find any actual reports of that being the sole cause.
Lightning will blow a hole through sch 40 too. & the flex connector at the appliance will not sustain a lightning strike.“How many observe Christ’s birthday! How few, his precepts! O! ‘tis easier to keep Holidays than Commandments.” —Benjamin Franklin
The basis for the class action is that the csst was not bonded properly and bonding was not dealt with properly in the instructions. Most, if not all the manufacturers settled, and the instructions have been changed.
CSST
Flex lines are all the gas company will use for new connections other than the rigid pipe going up to meters. Flex lines are all the hvac guys are running inside the house.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
check with your ins co , a lot will want it done by a licensed tech or no coverage in the case of a fire
Stainless steel
It is very expensive and can only be installed by licensed people in most jurisdictions. They make up the end connections on site and it has to be carefully done or it will leak.
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That stuff is way to thin. And you have to kick plate the hell out it. You might be able to use copper, check with your BI.
I was wondering about that. Even my soldering should hold 1/2psi in! But I would definitely pressure test it either way. Copper is not cheap, but much easier to work with than black iron. Will have to see if I could get by with 1/2" copper, the heater I am going to hook up are only 20,000Btu units, but the grill will be another story! The other garage connection is for a laboratory-type bench. Will check with local BI.Nick Andrews"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."- Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759
I believe that you an only used flared fittings for copper tubing on gas.The national codes allow copper, IF it is approved by the local authorities.The problem is that some gasses have sulfer in them that attack copper.I suspect that is no longer a problem with the gas pipeline and all that. And that the restrictions date back to manufactured coal gas. And that has stuck in local codes.But I have no proof of that..
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Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Saw copper brazed for gas some 20 years back...but I think it was high pressure
Mind you, I'd rather braze than flare, and if it's good for high pressure....
Flared copper will hold quite a bit of pressure too.
Look at most packaged AC units----- they are flare.“How many observe Christ’s birthday! How few, his precepts! O! ‘tis easier to keep Holidays than Commandments.” —Benjamin Franklin
soft copper.flare fittings.no soldering.much easier than hard copper
When my new furnace was installed this fall, the techs used a roll of soft copper tubing with compression fittings on each end for the gas line. This is typical in Minneapolis, but it may or may not be allowed in other areas.
Thats what the furnace installers used in Georgetown Ontario, North of the LineAn ex-boat builder treading water!
In my area flexible lines may not pass through walls or floors. All gas piping must be in black iron pipe except the final flex connection from the pipe to an appliance.
It's not that expensive, why go with less?
CSST----- corrugated stainless steel tubing.
Is used on low pressure downstream of meter.
HDPE----- high density polyethalyne is used by the gas co for distribution.
You need to take a class & get a card by the manufactures to be able to purchase their product------ it is a bit touchy & can leak if you're not carefull.
Copper, soft & hard drawn depends on local code, flare & mechanical joint are more common on low pressure systems.
“How many observe Christ’s birthday! How few, his precepts! O! ‘tis easier to keep Holidays than Commandments.” —Benjamin Franklin
I saw a episode of This Old House Classics a few days ago and Rich Trethewey was using a flex line for gas. It looked like it had a stainless "core" in a plastic sheath of some kind. Some of the points he made were:
I really doubt if any BI would sign off on a mix of black pipe and flex gas line.
You'll also need to size the lines appropriately for the added gas requirements.
I really doubt if any BI would sign off on a mix of black pipe and flex gas line.
That's gonna be a local thing.
My IAPMO inspectors have no problem with both being on the system---- as long as it's put in by code.
I have 6" high pressure main going up my building in sch 40 black welded, from there to a series of 2" screwed branches & 1/2" csst feeding from the 2" to every gas cook top & fireplace.“How many observe Christ’s birthday! How few, his precepts! O! ‘tis easier to keep Holidays than Commandments.” —Benjamin Franklin
I should have been a little more clear with my statement, I guess. The OP apparently wanted to use black pipe for straight runs with flex for bends, elbows, etc. I don't know where the OP is located, but that probably wouldn't fly around here. We can use flex to connect the appliance to the gas line.
Someone also said something about using soldered copper. According to my code book, copper joints have to be brazed or flared - solder isn't ok.
I really wish posters would give their locations when they ask code related questions. It always comes down to local requirements and most of us can only give advice based on our local areas - lol.
Wow csst just for the bends-----that would be incredibly expensive.
In my jurisdiction a flex appliance connector cannot pass through a wall or cabinet.
But CSST is rated & legal to do that around here, I have not seen where CSST is not aloud by code.“How many observe Christ’s birthday! How few, his precepts! O! ‘tis easier to keep Holidays than Commandments.” —Benjamin Franklin
"I should have been a little more clear with my statement, I guess. The OP apparently wanted to use black pipe for straight runs with flex for bends, elbows, etc. I don't know where the OP is located, but that probably wouldn't fly around here. We can use flex to connect the appliance to the gas line."First CSST is not flex appliance connectors.And if CSST is allowed in your area then the inspector does not have a reason to fail the installation.But I susepct that many when seeing such an installation would have 2, 3 and 4th thoughts about it and keeps looking until he can find something to fail it on..
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Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
It was my post. I am in New Mexico. I wanted to maybe use flex for the whole remodel protion to avoid working with black iron in the low attic space and feeding it through the trusses. Normally I wouldn't worry about trying a new or exotic material, but with the price difference and special tools, I will deal with the old standby. Copper is not allowed here due to sulfur, according to the BI. I still need to crawl into the attic and see what the feeder from the meter is. In the furnace closet it is 1/2". I am adding 2 outlets for 20,000Btu room heaters in the garage and greenhouse, one for an outdoor grill/cooking center and one for a lab-type gas outlet in the garage. Hopefully the attic line is 3/4" to the furnace closet and not 1/2". I will need to crawl in the attic with a tape and plan my joints and turns.Nick Andrews"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."- Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759
Nick -
Good luck with the attic crawling. I find that the older I get, the less interested I am in crawling in any attic - let alone one with trusses - lol.
How sure are you that a 3/4" line will give you enough gas? That may be too small depending on the distances involved and loads you're planning.
Home Depot sells a line of Taunton Press books that deal with plumbing. You might want to get one and see what they say about proper sizing of gas lines.
I didn't have to add age to the formula for dislike of any crawl.
I don't seem to hate it so bad with a respirator and safety glasses and a hooded sweatshirt. Plus the glasses get fogged up and then it doesn't seem bad at all.
I have used stainless flex gas line, its nice stuff. But, But,But I have also had to repair some that was installed by another plumber, I kinda suspect his helper did this, how the fitting is applied to the pipe is critical. This is one product that should not be available in the box stores. The local plumbing supply will sell it to me by the foot, its great to not have to buy a whole roll.
The guys that run 1/2 inch pvc and only put hangers every ten foot shouldn't even be allowed to know about csst.
The guys that run 1/2 inch pvc and only put hangers every ten foot shouldn't even be allowed to know about csst.
AMEN to that brother.
You should do an archives search of a post by etherhuffer & CSST & see what some dip did with csst on the outside of his house for his gas fireplace.
I offered to fix it. Just too damn ugly to see somethin like that & let it pass.“How many observe Christ’s birthday! How few, his precepts! O! ‘tis easier to keep Holidays than Commandments.” —Benjamin Franklin
Don't use anything but black iron pipe in the walls or attic space or floor joists,whatever. after stub outs you can go to stainless or copper. Leave the plastic outsisde in the ditch with a wire tracer if ever you need to find it again. and put plastic warning tape about 12" above the pipe in the ditch so the guy whose digging it up won't hit it and blow himself up. Gas is inheirently dangerous cause it can explode under certain conditions!