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Discussion Forum

Flip/ Renovate/ etc TV Shows

HammerHarry | Posted in General Discussion on December 18, 2008 04:11am

Sometimes I find myself watching any one of those interchangeable and usually bad ‘flipping’ shows, or one of the like.

I know it’s ‘reality’ television, but one thing that annoys the bejeepers out of me is that every demo involves smashing everything to pieces.  I guess it’s my Scottish blood, but when I see them smashing up cupboards, toilets, etc, I just don’t get the wanton destruction.  I grew up in a small town, and if you didn’t want the old stuff, someone else might.  For a camp, or a garage….put it out by the curb with a ‘free’ sign on it, and it’d be gone overnight.

And smashing drywall into a gazillion tiny bits just seems like a make-work project.  Wouldn’t it make more sense to keep the pieces as big as you can handle, and therefore minimize the mess, dust, and crud?

I know, it makes for less exciting tv, but every time I see this, I shake my head at the waste and stupidity.

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Replies

  1. Shep | Dec 18, 2008 04:17am | #1

    That waste does bother me, but the ineptness of all those people who think that they can make a quick buck flipping really drives me crazy. And it seems like a lot of them have never heard of a building permit, either.

  2. VMackey | Dec 18, 2008 04:23am | #2

    A couple of years back I worked with an electrician who wanted to film a "real" reality show. He said he'd call it "MY Flip-Flopped"!

    I also hate watching the sledge hammers fly when a cordless drill or wrench would work much better. I'd much rather carry big pieces of what ever to the dumpster then sweep the splinters off the floor. Even if the old toilet is going straight to the dumpster, I's going to go in one or two pieces. Cabinets usually come down the same way they went up, again, not to save fixtures, but to save me time, trouble and money. Vic

  3. User avater
    Ted W. | Dec 18, 2008 04:33am | #3

    I see it all the time - absolute novice thinks demolition begins with a sledge hammer. Maybe if it was called dismantling, them boneheads would stop and think about what they're doing. Or maybe not.

    I got called for an estimate more than a couple of times, where the owner already took a sledge hammer to everything they didn't want, and then some. Even had one, I'll never forget, where the plaster, trim, light fixtures and everything else was scattered all over the floor, owner covered with dust and no sign of a dust mask,  looking dum and desparate.

    What's really surprising is how much extra expense can be incured from having to go back and repair the damage done.

    See my work at TedsCarpentry.com
    Buy Cheap Tools! BuildersTools.net

    If you haven't already done so, please update your profile. Since many issues are dependant on the region in which you work, we often look at your profile to see where you are writing from.

  4. ponytl | Dec 18, 2008 04:44am | #4

    yeah... they love to destory stuff and then talk about how "green" they want to be in rebuilding...  like it wouldn't be "green" to reuse stuff or give it to someone who can vs fill'n up a land fill... morons...

    and when they show profit they never show soft costs... permits... plans... doc fees... closing costs, realtor commisions ect....  toss that in and most of em go in the hole

    p

    1. Davo304 | Dec 18, 2008 08:41am | #5

      I honestly can't believe these flipped homes are actually being sold. Most times, the crafstmenship is shoddy, materials, fixtures and appliances are cheapies, few homes are bricked, roof jobs are "roof-overs" instead of tear-offs. No one seems to know anything about or care about load -bearing walls.  Trim is usally paint grade stuff.

      Yet....when all is said and done, these people claim to be making huge profits of 70K or more. It blows my mind!

      I see single-story  homes that are slab on grade foundations, no bigger than my own garage, totally trashed, and going for over $200K in CA.  Young punks...I mean, "flippers" buy this junk, have no clue about renovations, sink about 70K into fixing it up...including the 30K they blew on screwing things up and then trying to correct them, and at the end of the show, they sell it for like $470K and walk away with $200 large in their pocket. Who are these people who are willing to shell out $470K on these #### homes?

      Housing is waaaay overpriced...especially in CA. And although I'm sure there must be some really terrific crafstmen in CA.; you never see it on these shows. Most of these so called "contractors" are  either young kid wannabees, fly-by-nights, or barflies looking to make some beer money.

       

      If any of what is shown on TV is even half true, then I must kick myself for not relocating out West...cause by now I'd be at least a millionaire....and I only consider myself to be a good carpenter/remodeler...not a great one.

      1. john7g | Dec 18, 2008 03:33pm | #10

        In some cases the houses didn't sell as was the fraud case in at least some of the Atlanta shows.

        Also when they show the profit numbers they fail to show two significant numbers, the realtor fees and taxes due on the profit (which I know is a variable but still a significant number).

        It's a TV show for entertainment with the intent to draw in advertising $$$. 

        1. User avater
          Matt | Dec 18, 2008 03:52pm | #11

          >> Also when they show the profit numbers they fail to show two significant numbers, the realtor fees and taxes due on the profit (which I know is a variable but still a  very significant number). << hope you don't mind, but I added a word in there...

          That was gonna be my post...  and they never happen to mention what the time might be worth of the guy doing the "flipping".  Personally, I don't consider working on some 50s house for a month or 2 "profit". 

          OH - and how about mortgage/interest payments during the process?  Closing costs? etc, etc.

          1. john7g | Dec 18, 2008 04:44pm | #12

            Don't mind at all on the added emphasis. 

            I tried to sell my last 2 projects (last one was 6 months ago) that got rented first but even then when looking at the numbers the realtor fees were going to be ~20% of the gross.  Then take ~20% to ~30% for taxes from the remainder and that's a big difference between the initial advertised gross.  

            I've made a calculator in Excel that I have on my PDA that lets me see the numbers that I could think of at a glance.  In the end a $54,000 gross (difference between purchase and a realistic sales price) turns out to be a $~20,000 cleared. 37%. [ETA those numbers do include loan maintenance costs. To go along with loan mtc costs you also need to calculate missed interest gained from cash you use from savings.  Not a large costs sometimes but indeed a cost.]

            The place to be is in the realtors position (or even better, the realtors owner) during these events.  They pick up a fee at the start and finish.  On a house bought for $80K and then sold (hypothecally) for $135k they're taking ~$16k and didn't break a sweat or lose any sleep.   

            Edited 12/18/2008 8:47 am ET by john7g

          2. AitchKay | Dec 18, 2008 04:57pm | #13

            "The place to be is in the realtors position. They pick up a fee at the start and finish."And they spend most days driving tire-kickers all over Hell's Half-Acre for no sale. And they have to work every evening, and every weekend.The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence, but the fact is, most people have to work hard for not enough money.AitchKay

          3. john7g | Dec 18, 2008 09:10pm | #17

            Grass is always greener over the septic field, eh?  LOL

            But it's hard not to think it's easier money when they sell the same house 2x in the matter of a few months and collect 6% (or whatever is negotiated) at each sale. 

          4. restorationday | Dec 18, 2008 11:45pm | #24

            $16k is pushing the numbers a bit
            assuming 6% commission
            assuming the agent has both sides of the transaction for the $80k house that would be $4800 commission
            assuming the same agent then has both sides of the transaction for the $135k house that would be $8100 commissionTotal $12900 in commission and that is a very rare 4 sided transactionMore typical would be the agent for the flipper would have 2 sides so that is $6450 and then a 80/20 broker split (this can vary wildly but 80/20 is a nice average) puts it at $5160 before expenses. Still a nice income but not $16k.
            I used to be a flipper and would walk away, on average, with $10k for six weeks of work on an average $100k sale price house after expenses and that was with a purchase price of, on average, $30k. Without much more of a spread I made no money and if the house sat too long I made no money.
            I also had an agreement with my agent that if he got both sides of a transaction I paid 5% instead of 6% split to both agents.I am now an agent so I can keep more money as many smart flippers are though I am not flipping anymore, just buying as cheap as I can and holding with renters till the market goes up.

          5. geoffhazel | Dec 19, 2008 12:20am | #25

            I did a few flips in Eugene OR back in the late 70's and a few more in Aberdeen WA in 2000-2004. On the last one in Aberdeen, I got miffed that the RE Agent was making more than I was and I had been down there every weekend for a year. (It wasn't very well managed, I grant you that -- but that happens frequently on flips, more frequently than the TV shows will admit).Anyway, I said "I'm getting my RE license. Even if I sell just one house per year, I'll make more than a whole year of weekends swinging a hammer." And I actually did make a few sales, all to family and friends. And sold one of my own places in Aberdeen, too, so the license really paid off.But trying to make a living being and agent? That's a whole different ballgame. Breaking in and getting to where you have enough clients who will give you referrals takes for-EVER. Everyone already knows an agent, has an agent, or knows someone who knows an agent. It's a tough business to make a living in. Course when you are paying an agent $10,000 to list and sell your flip and you see them spend less than 15 hours on YOUR listing, the math looks quite different.

          6. ponytl | Dec 19, 2008 03:42am | #27

            maybe i need to start a thread... but i'm about to start listing my condo/loft project... maybe late jan 09...  with rates dipping below 5% AND obama have'n to do something... I'm guessing you will see a buyer program @ around 4% on sales (not refi)...

            but  i have 20 units... and not sure i'm going to use a realtor... even @ 5% thats like give'n one away... and that just doesn't sit well with me... i'd prefer to discount the units... spend a ton on ads and maybe have a huge open house party with a band wine and my banks loan officers sit'n there with standard sales contracts... i could even get a RE lawyer there for nothing but the promise of the close'n fees... if i can sell 7-10 units i can pay off my construction loan and then be under zero pressure to sell the rest...

            agents i know are fine people... but i've never had one make me money... never had one bring me a deal...  never showed me a better way to do anything....

            just feel'n this idea out for now... i have about a month to figure it out...

            p

          7. User avater
            IHammerI | Dec 19, 2008 05:24am | #28

            Want to upset a agent?
            FSBOThe day you settle on your flip is the day the "for sale" sign goes up.

          8. geoffhazel | Dec 19, 2008 07:05am | #29

            I have a good friend who is an agent for various builders in Boulder, CO. He charges the standard 6%, and I asked him about his value proposition. He pointed out to me that you'll be likely be paying a buyer's agent 3%, even if you do a "FSBO". And you'll have to pay someone, (or take your own time) to have open houses, and at least pay a nominal fee to get into the MLS. Are you going to do any advertising or marketing? More expense. I'm not trying to twist your arm here, more like trying' to help you justify spending the money, if and when you decide to.Questions to ask your RE agent to be sure you're getting someone who will earn their money:What is your level of experience?
            What's your plan for marketing and selling these?
            Who are your people ? Tell me about your team?
            Are you going to be spending any money marketing our property?

          9. ponytl | Dec 20, 2008 07:20pm | #31

            I guess my main issue is...  if i go with a realtor... i have 20 units to sell... they only have to place ONE ad... and with an open house they are onsite with inventory of 20 vs 1...  since no 2 units are exactly alike this makes it both good and bad for a realtor... too many choices... and have'n choices...

            I've been involved in media and media buys and marketing since i was 21... local to national... so i have a better understanding of marketing than the average realtor... have been involved in real estate since i was 18 (first rental)... it's what feeds me... 99% of what i do is commercial but I have a pretty good grasp on what i do... I have One full time guy who understands detail and contracts and always has my best interest at heart... media budget... I can spend whatever it takes... signage... banners.... access to St Jude (they are less than 6 blocks away and assist employees who want to live in the area)... 

            I know everyone wants what they have to sell... to sell itself...

            my units are not cookie cutter... the trim levels aren't FHB but they are fine carpentry there is alot of detail and character... the entire project was designed around reuse and creative use of materials... the common areas are limited and low maintainance... everything that could be done to keep insurance rates down was done... so monthly maintainance fees will be below area norms...

            and since i am the developer/designer/contractor/builder/and account for a full 50%+ of the labor... my cost per SF is way below market... I want to offer value but I also feel i have a product that shouldn't be undersold... I'm not nor will i be (i hope) in a position to have to make a sale...

            do i have a plan?  not on paper... but then the whole project was DOS (design on site)

            p

          10. User avater
            Matt | Dec 19, 2008 03:22pm | #30

            If you can't sell some via FSBO, you might want to look around for one of those cut rate real estate outfits that will list your property in the MLS for a flat fee - say $800 for one unit.  They basically just list it and that is it.  No other customer service type stuff - you would be responsible for showing it, dealing with any sales contracts, etc, etc.  You still have to pay the buyer's agent fee though, but your total sales fees will be significantly less.

            Theoretically, since it's a condo project, I guess you could have one unit listed and just keep it listed, only selling the other units.  That would be really awesome...

            Or, if you had a RE license, you could list them yourself.

            OTOH, part of what helps full service real estate agents sell your property is their networking - their contacts.  I saw this first hand....  My company has a 20 unit condo building, with space for 2 more identical buildings.  We had a sales person who was an EE of our company. She was working under the RE license that our company has, since she was not licensed in this state (but was in another state).  Anyway, over a year and a half, she sold like 4 units....  She hadn't had a sale in the last 8 months.  :-(  Then we got rid of her and got a regular agent from one of the big name firms.  New lady sold 5 in the first 6 weeks!   We will see if this continues but it was amazing...

            Another thing we are doing that might interest you is that in this case we finished 10 units and left the other 10 just drywalled.  This allows buyers who are not in a  big hurry the ability to pick their interior finishes - paint, carpet, tile, cabinets, countertop.  I think the sales have been basically split between the finished and unfinished units.  Some of this depends on how the permitting and CO deal works in your area with respect to multi family units.

            Anyway, for us people in new construction, real estate agents are a real love-hate thing.  They are like car salesmen, although since a RE's commission is strictly percentage based, they sometimes could care less if the builder makes money or not.  At least with car salesmen there is really a bottom line number that their company has paid for the product, so their commission is more directly based on the sale price.  OTOH, they clearly move your product quicker than you can by yourself - unless what you have is a real hot commodity...  I've been there too...

            Also, here, it is common place to deal with REs on 2 different commission structures for new construction sales.  Maybe 4.5% - builder pays for marketing.  6% full service.  There can also be something written into the contract with your RE company where the commission is reduced if the buyer does not have his own agent.   It's fairly different than re-sales.

            Maybe you already know all this stuff....

          11. ponytl | Dec 20, 2008 07:30pm | #32

            thanks...  man i'm fish'n for input...  all my units will be finished... because i have everything to finish them.... down to the last robe hook... no two units the same... I have not presold because i had everything (90% of) in stock to finish em... Sounds bad at the maybe loss of a sale  but I didn't want to deal with changes or the cost involved... for me changes would cost more than most... go'n out to purchase vs us'n whats in stock... i even had all the paint...

            i don't have a re lic  but in this market i could hire someone who did... cheaper than getting my own...

            I hashing this out now... just get'n my ducks in a row...

            thanks for your input... i rent far more stuff than i ever sell... so I'm outside my box

            p

          12. alwaysoverbudget | Dec 21, 2008 05:58am | #42

            i like the one comment you made,

            " don't have a re lic  but in this market i could hire someone who did... "

            i would guess that there are some people out there that hold a real estate brokers license [here in Kansas you could have a independent salesman,has to be a broker] that you could hire and set them up a office in one of the first floor condos. hourly plus a commission.

            what i hate about selling your own is it's hard to get people talking. if I'm looking at one of your units with a agent i can say" look at this ugly color,I'm going to throw up" a good agent will then take that and work with it,we'll get it redone or maybe the seller would give you a 500. paint allowance,whatever. so they are a good insulator between the 2 parties. if it's your unit people will be scared to say much about it positive or neg.

            here's something else i can picture with you,from reading your posts for a long time. your not going to go sit in a office in nice clean Khakis' waiting for a customer. your still going to be working around doing some thing's.  i can speak from my experience with car sales,it was my lot and i was CEO and janitor and everything in between. so when i was working on a car and someone would come in,i would go out to wait on them,dirty jeans whatever. i would guess that this probably turned off close to 1/2 the customers i had. some,to tell you the truth loved it. they knew there was not going to be the "but the salesman said you'd put on a new set of tires"they knew who said it and thats how it is.

            if it was my deal i would take a fsbo swing at it for maybe 60 days,[sitting in clean Khakis'] then i would hire someone else who knew there job depended on selling something. a lot of agents get pretty lazy after the bloom is gone.YOU ONLY NEED TWO TOOLS IN LIFE - WD-40 AND DUCT TAPE. IF IT DOESN'TMOVE AND SHOULD, USE THE WD-40. IF IT SHOULDN'T MOVE AND DOES, USE THEDUCT TAPE.

          13. ponytl | Dec 22, 2008 04:11am | #43

            LOL  thanks... you are right of course....  and I'm the first to know people are too nice in that they won't hurt your feelings... 

            I call it the  "long hair syntrome"  ie: the chick with hair almost to the floor... looks like cousin IT... but everyone (other chicks)  say "oh i love your hair" .... "i wish my hair would grow like that"  ect... then 5 feet away  they say or think... why would anyone want that horses tail on their head...  the chick with the hair thinks everyone loves it... it gives her an identity and makes her feel special because "everyone wishes they could have it and loves it"....  so she becomes a slave to 40lbs of hair that makes her look like a horror movie extra... and everyone continues to lie and tell her it's great....

            I am blessed to have my one guy who knows more about my business than i do... who is hard as nails and no one has a clue...  That would be that guy in khakis...

            btw... I clean up pretty well... even my kids don't believe i wore a sports coat to school (public) everyday... i put the "prep" in "prep"  except for the days i rode my harley to school... sportcoat and penny loafers... :)

            p

          14. alwaysoverbudget | Dec 22, 2008 05:39am | #44

            just so you don't misunderstand,i'm sure you look good in penny loafers and a harley. my point is i see you  even when you are "done" your not done. you'll be out doing land scaping, putting in a sprinkler system, etc. i gaurentee you when your as muddy as you can get thats when someone pulls  up and say's they want to look at some units.some people wouldn't think a thing about it and some would.

            this happens to me with my rentals,my stakes aren't as high so i just show it to em,they can like the house or not.

             

            your comment on cleaning up brought back what  my  6th grade teacher told me,and i still remember. i wanted to take a wood shop class in 7th grade and he's talking to me about what i'd like to do and if i thought i would go to college. nope! i'm going to work on cars.

             

             so he told me this  " a guy can work and get filthy dirty and go home take a shower ,go to a ballgame and set right beside the guy thats never gotten his hands dirty, he's no better or worse than i am" probably the best advice i ever got from a teacher

            i have had to think of that a few hundred times when i was up to my elbows in nasty stuff,a shower would fix it.   larry

             YOU ONLY NEED TWO TOOLS IN LIFE - WD-40 AND DUCT TAPE. IF IT DOESN'TMOVE AND SHOULD, USE THE WD-40. IF IT SHOULDN'T MOVE AND DOES, USE THEDUCT TAPE.

          15. john7g | Dec 19, 2008 01:59am | #26

            yeah, your right, thanks for the correction.  I had not corrected a number on one of my columns from a different scenario during pre-caffein this AM.  The number I have after the correction is $4788 (previously in error) and $8100 (based on 6%) .  You were pretty darn close to the exact scenario I was working out here at my PC.  You been here looking at my stuff?  That $8,100 is >20% of the gross profit on that project scenario which is a hefty chunk and something that eats at me.  Yes, it's the cost of doing business, but 20% is 20%. 

            The 6%/5% agreement you had with your agent is the same I was working as well.  Your best chance to negotiate a price as the flipper is by giving the selling agent the same house again. 

  5. User avater
    larryscabnuts | Dec 18, 2008 08:45am | #6

    Most of what I have seen are a bunch of amatures trying to make a buck. Usually I just surf on to something else.

  6. bobbys | Dec 18, 2008 09:22am | #7

    In my whole career i cant remember anytime i walked up to a wall at chest height with a sledgehammer and started swinging. Every show starts that way , Dont they have sawsalls???

    But to be fair i dont remember a goodlooking girl in high heels and short skirt busting up things with me.

  7. Tyr | Dec 18, 2008 11:01am | #8

    Not only do those dopes do everything wrong, they whine and moan all through the show that they are behind schedule and--horror of horrors--have to make a loan payment.
    My wife started watching those things and when I commented that it would be nice to have a break from something I do all week she switched to a trading spaces show.

    Finally, it ended up with Extreme Overdone that replaces an entire house on a little lot with a mansion that requires 5 acres. At least I can laugh at the 200 people who couldn't possibly occupy the site at the same time and when the bus moves I expect the still wet paint to blow off.

    Things are not always what they seem; the first appearance deceives many; the intelligence of a few perceives what has been carefully hidden.... Roman Poet Phaedrus 15BC–50AD
    1. brownbagg | Dec 18, 2008 02:36pm | #9

      I really believe these show are part of the problem with the housing busrt. peopl e think they house is worth way more than it can sell for and the county tax assesor is just loving it, driving up property values.

  8. User avater
    JDRHI | Dec 18, 2008 06:31pm | #14

    Yup.....been doing this almost 25 yrs.....residential remodeling, almost exclusively.

    I cannot think of one time I have EVER taken a sledge to a set of cabinets.

    We are almost always able to salvage a set of cabs, for basements or garage.

    Heck....when I bought my own home (a foreclosure), I used the set of metal cabinets being pulled off the job I was on at the time.

    Ugliest set of cabinets you ever layed your eyes on. Served as my kitchen for about five years.

    J. D. Reynolds

    Home Improvements

     

     

     


  9. sungod | Dec 18, 2008 08:22pm | #15

    I have seen the richest Flippers around Beverly Hills. I have seen a half dozen fairly new Sub-zeros trashed, I don't need no Sub Zero (refrigerator). I watched a kitchen of black granite with turquoise flecks broken up cause no one wanted it (I could not even lift it).
    Ran across this contractor, who look really sad, he spent 2 years remodeling, he just sold it to Tom Cruise (20+ years ago). He said the house is now being gutted totally inside and out.

    1. edwardh1 | Dec 18, 2008 08:56pm | #16

      My question is: when the flippers hit a problem they get pixxed and call someone to fix it and demand that he is there at 6 AM the next day. How does that happen? many people, especially 6 months ago were booked up!!!!!!

      1. rasconc | Dec 18, 2008 09:26pm | #18

        I liked the recent rerun where Armando had the plumbing leaks and the plumber wanted $150 to crawn under the rathole to look at the rotten galvanized pipe.  Mr personality got balistic and crewled in the mud in his Guccis.  They finally bandaided the rusted junk, pity the poor buyer.

        They dramatize this #### and script it for sure.  Oh dear the budget, oh dear the schedule, oh dear the contractor won't drop his good paying job and come over and take care of my crisis at 1/3 normal price because of oh dear the budget.

        On the above episode Armando beat up some poor schlep to remove a crude patio cover for about half what he wanted then threw in snatching the panelling off a wall at the same price.  Also he was calling several contractors who told him to pound sand, they would not work for him ever again.

        I like the Property Ladder show, the realtor is a ray of sunshine and reality (not to mention HOT).

        I am sure there is a Flipper drinking game.

        Edit: sorry I must have mispelled carp (;-)

        For those who have fought for it Freedom has a flavor the protected will never know.

        Edited 12/18/2008 2:00 pm ET by rasconc

        1. bobbys | Dec 18, 2008 10:07pm | #19

          I saw that one and told my wife if i was the plumber i would have waited till he went in and screwed the floor shut on him, my wife said that was mean but when he went to the lumberyard with a bullhorn to look for workers she looked for the screws. I would have turned it off right then and there but did not want to miss his wife lookin good,;]

          1. DanT | Dec 18, 2008 10:37pm | #21

            Having flipped a few (most I ever made was 15k) I concure with the views of everyone.

            Demo is one of my pet peeves also.  The amount of damage done with hammers can only increase the cost.

            And what contractor worth a darn is available the next day?!  I mean I am sure we all have had a moment in our business careers that happened but I can't remember one. 

            My favorite was a show about fixing up your home.  They had a corner that had 3 walls to it and wanted to show how to build a nice corner cabinet with unusual angles...........in 30 minutes with commercials.  It went like this:

            "Ok first we have gone to the local lumber yard and picked up some nice mahogany (!?) lumber for our project, some hinges, handles, glue etc.

            Here is how we arrive at our angle, we measure here, here and here and then to be sure we will bend a wire along the angles for a pattern. 

            We'll be back after this break."

            (After the break)

            "Ok, everything is measured and cut and we are ready to assemble. (!?)  First we mount the back board on the wall, we previously measured and removed the base board the proper amount by the way.  Ok now just start putting the pieces together using wood dowels and glue (shows how to do this!) and then once dried we will sand it all and finish it.  We'll be right back after the break.

            (After the break) 

            "Ok, with the sanding and finish complete we will now screw on our hinges and handles and you can see this is pretty straight forward, a real do it yourself type project!"

            There was of course some more verbage but I swear they showed no more than what I described.  Like how to build furniture in 3 easy lessons.  DanT 

          2. brokentile | Dec 21, 2008 05:19am | #40

            If your not willing to get your hands dirty you should never even think about flipping a house.  I can't believe someone would check on the job every few days and expect miracles.  I'd like to see what these flippers are doing now.  I'll bet they are back at the mall selling shoes. 

          3. bobbys | Dec 21, 2008 05:35am | #41

            I get so mad at some of these people for disrespecting the trades.

        2. Shep | Dec 18, 2008 10:58pm | #22

          I saw that episode, too.

          Armando is about the biggest thug on TV. He makes Tony Soprano look like a choir boy.

          There was another one where Armando was in (another) huge hurry to get a flip started, but he and the contractor couldn't come to terms on price. The contractor finally says that he will start, and they can work out the contract later.

          Then, after the contractor is gone, they show Armando laughing, and saying that he's gonna teach that contractor a lesson about never starting a job without a signed contract.

          Guys like him are one of the reasons this profession has a bad reputation.

          1. rasconc | Dec 18, 2008 11:16pm | #23

            Yeah, he makes Richard on the original seem pretty reasonable. 

            On the Armando one you mention if I were the contractor I would be thinking the same thing but adding "wonder what the mechanic's lein will do to the schedule and closing".

            Then again I would never work for the b******.For those who have fought for it Freedom has a flavor the protected will never know.

    2. User avater
      Ted W. | Dec 21, 2008 12:48am | #35

      I bet somebody could make a good living doing the gutting on those jobs for free, and selling whatever the haul away.

       See my work at TedsCarpentry.comBuy Cheap Tools! BuildersTools.net

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  10. User avater
    boiler7904 | Dec 18, 2008 10:34pm | #20

    A lot of the people on those shows have no business living in houses, let alone buying, "remodeling", and selling them for a profit.

    One guy took the carpet out of his own house to carpet a bedroom in his flip. The guys installing it forgot to leave enough to go through the doorway - just cut another piece and tacked it down, no seaming whatsoever. The flipper's quote was "get it done. I don't have to live with it when we're done."

    Demo in those houses without protecting wood floors drives me nuts. It happens in almost every episode. Pretty hard to fix a floor that gets destroyed by demo. And how they work around the piles of junk is behind me.

    Just curious, would these people be subject to OSHA inspections since they are technically in construction business setting? Could OSHA go back and fine them based on the violations that are aired on TV? Very rarely do these people wear the proper clothing or PPE to do the jobs they are trying to do. Aside from a flipper, who really wears flip flops on a construction site?

    Those shows should teach us all not to go into business partnerships with friends to flip houses. Rarely does it turn out well for the friendship.

    Once in a while they have someone that is making an honest attempt to improve a home and earn a fair wage / profit for their efforts. I have a professional appreciation for those people that do the work right without cutting corners or burying problems in the process. They don't make as much money at the end of the day but they are a lot more respectable and don't come off looking like a bunch of no-talent hacks.

     
    1. renosteinke | Dec 21, 2008 01:08am | #36

         At the risk of hijacking this thread ...

        Over the years I've worked jobs like that. Either some self-annointed 'Trump Jr." trying to flip a trashed house he got at auction, or a particularily inept general contractor.

         When I 'grade' a job, some of the things I look at are:

      1) Trash. There needs to be a place for trash - and I don't mean a big pile on the floor. Or a huge trailer parked across the doorway. I want that trash removed regularly during the course of the job, not one big load at the end. I also expect the site cleaned, at least minimally, every day. Trash is both a safety hazard, and a time waster. I don't want to find the crawl sopace, attic, and wall cavities filled with everyone's off-cuts and lunch wrappers.

      2) Scheduling. I don't want to have to climb over a pile of drywall in every room for three months. I don't want the tile-setter placing tiles around the feet of my ladder.  I don't want plumber jackhammering a hole in the floor the day the carpet guys and ceiling guys show up. (All have actually happened).

      3) Utilities. That is, I need a functioning toilet, or a porta-potty. I've seen jobs go for 9 months, and no toilet. They seem to save that for last. Telling the crew to use the McDonalds at the end of the street doesn't cut it. I need light to work by, and I need some sort of heat. I work a lot safer, faster, and better when I'm not bundled up like the Michelin man. Main entrances need to have  planks, ramps, doors - whatever it takes, even temporary stairs - to facilitate traffic. Some kind of print table (or bulletin board) isn't a bad idea, either!

      4) Consideration. I'll never forget the guy who immediately set up his 'work station' in the main entry path. There was no reason he could not have set up three feet to the side ... he just had his head in the clouds. Or, the guy who locked the place up while I was on the roof; it was his quitting time. Or the GC, waiting for some special doors, who didn't want to spring for a sheet of plywood over the openings, as the winter snows started falling.

      5) Which brings us to 'security.' There's a real need for at least one room to be closed in and secure during a job. A place to take your breaks, to store your stuff, to read the prints. A place to get - for just a moment- out of the weather.

      6) Last, but by no means least, I want to see the proper tools in use. This means lifts, ladders, and scaffolding. Heavy equipment as needed. Shoring in holes - and an easy way out!

       

           What does this all mean? It means that, when I look at a job, I notice this stuff - or the lack of it. I adjust my price accordingly. You want a good price from me, you need to make things friendlier to me.

      1. frammer52 | Dec 21, 2008 02:46am | #37

        good rant!

  11. renosteinke | Dec 20, 2008 08:58pm | #33

    I think we're looking at the shows the wrong way.

    Don't overlook the comedic relief, as the clueless blunder about.

    I think the shows are also quite educational .... letting us watch as the DIY's learn the hard way about how a jobsite works. Why things are done in a certain order. The need for a plan - and sticking to it. How 'simple' problems cascade into major repairs.

    Most important .... the very idea that buying a house, giving it a nice coat of paint, changing a few fixtures, and then quickly reselling at a major profit is ... well ... unrealistic. If it was that easy, the previous owners would have done it before selling.

    When it's all done, the 'flippers' generally have a whole new appreciation of the skilled trades. They've learned they can't do it, and the box store is no help.

  12. ramertt | Dec 20, 2008 09:04pm | #34

    I agree.  Furthermore what boils my blood is that the shows never tell the true story.  Rarely do you see any city inspections or permits pulled for the major stuff.  Also the costs that they claim ie. $2500.00 for a kitchen remodel with new appliances, granit countertops, etc. are a joke!  The shows are giving the wrong impression on how much time and money is actually spent and what it truly takes to flip a house!

  13. shellbuilder | Dec 21, 2008 03:01am | #38

    I have a flip going almost 50% of the time. Right now i have 3 going on, all next door to each other and another one a block away. It's simply spec building. There may be more work to do on the ones I'm remodeling but I'm able to resell "new" houses for 175,000 I don't know where i could buy a lot for less than 130.

     

  14. ted | Dec 21, 2008 03:08am | #39

    I can't tell you how many times I've come across on of those shows and say to myself or wife, "what a bunch of morons". Actually making a bigger mess to clean up in the end and just demonstrates what a bunch of hacks they are. Which essentially is why they are on television. it's probably more entertaining watching a bunch of meat heads take a salvageable house and turn it into a disaster and lose their savings while they're at it.

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