I watch the show Flip this House quite often. It’s pretty much turned into a program about Trademark Properties, the real estate company headed up by Richard and his brothers.
They buy a house and then , IMO, give such an unreasonable amount of time to do the work in order to meet their budget that I would never even consider working for someone like them.
I don’t mind some OT , I definately , but rarely,on occasion put in a long day (12-13 hrs.). But I wouldn’t ever even consider working until 11 pm or 1:30 in the morning to finish a project because the contractor has the expectation to flip a house in 10 days or a week.
I’m kind of wondering if I’m alone here, my neighbor works his guys until all hours and expects them to stay no matter what ( he’s a landscaper) , on occasion we’ve talked about it and he feels that since he buys lunch and it’s mostly seasonal work that it’s ok. I just don’t agree.
Anyone else digusted with the way they do business on that show?
Replies
One of my old bosses ran his business that way. Promise ridiculous deadlines, then expect his crew (me and a helper) and his subs to make the miracle happen. First few times we all pulled through for him, but the subs didn't like being expected to do it every time, and quit cooperating. And I started going home at quittin' time if he didn't ask me ahead of time to plan on staying late. (I was on salary, so I didn't get paid for it anyway). When he stopped giving year-end bonuses, I quit. Later I heard through the grapevine that his business foundered.
"he...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain
I'll do anything for money ...
but very little for low pay.
had a fight with a GC once who tried to double my schedule ... on a job I bid as a sub at a set price ... when he called Fri Nite to complain that the customer complained that I said I have no plans to meet either of their crack-head'd schedules ... and I was planning on sticking to my original time frame ... I simply reminded him what time of nite it was ... and what nite it was ... and said he he wanted to see the job done at all he'd better forget my number until 8am monday.
He called back the next day to apologize ... and beg .... "is there anyway we can make this work? I just found $1,000 bucks more in the budget ..."
I said sure ... meet me there in 30 minutes with $1,000 cash!
Told him ... suddenly ... I'm available to work this weekend ...
he was pissed ... I got paid ... we hit their crackhead schedule.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
ur such a whore :) LOL
me i have standards... as low as they might be... and for a price they can go lower
still laugh'n at that post....
p
Don't watch the show...and really don't know anyone who works those types of hours...but I certainly never would. No amount of money could sway me. A one time deal? Maybe......A regular expectation...not a chance.
I'm more than happy to put in some overtime here and there....crew got a good rythm going late in the day....stay a few hours extra to complete a portion of a project that will likely take twice as long to start up in the morning. Other than that....nope.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
Only and ONLY if the job is a few hours from completion I will work beyond 10 or 11 hours. I try to keep a schedule that is Monday to thursday 10 hour days. I have way too many other interest's, least of which is my family. I have had a dozen or more periods where I worked 12 hour days for 30-40 days straight. I found myself losing focus,interest etc. Not to mention I was exhausted.
Jack
I'll start trying to meet silly deadlines when I see people dropping dead from not having there work done on time, not any sooner.
Doug
ROFLMAO
>>>>..........when I see people dropping dead from not having there work done on time, not any sooner.<<<<<
Corporate business today measures everything by the size of the silver dollar.
Yeah, ive seen that show. If I went in to bid a job like that i'd walk right out. I do the best I can as fast as I can (hey time is money) but there is no way I would run like that. A big part of why I do this, is that I enjoy it (most of the time). I dont think I could find pleasure or pride in work done that quickly.
It stinks of trading spaces quality type work.
If they find guys to work like that more power to um.
To steal a concept from another poster:
Is a few days added to the schedule going to matter 40 years from now?
Speak the truth, or make your peace some other way.
watched the Georgetown South Carolina show- they went there, looked in phone book for contractors, called some, one came- they gave him the pitch, he took notes said I will see you tomorrow at 7 AM and never showed- I guess they scared him off!!!Do they expect "Good people" to be readily available?????? MAybe the promise of being on a show helps? Then they said $310k purchase price, $40k invested so lets list it at $450K.sez who?
Edited 3/27/2006 10:49 pm ET by edwardh1
HOw about the one where they went to see Richards boyhood friend for help finding a contractor.
They hired the guy without any contract, set budget or even an idea of who was really in charge ( Ginger or John). Then when his bill came, went nuts about how " These simple rednecks think they can ust rip me off"
The show is a joke. Without ginger in a few miniskirts or low cut blouses I think it would be gone by now.
"...so lets list it at $450K."
There's obviously a hell of a lot of difference between "listed" and sold". Do they ever go back and tell what a property actually sold for?
I once worked as a horse trainer. It was a stable job.
heh heh Boss said 'hell'.
'Nemo me impune lacesset'No one will provoke me with impunity
For what its worth....
I caught the end of an episode last night where the real estate agent was talking to one of the "flippers". They discussed a rock bottom price (~$550k i think) and a price they thought they could get by holding out for 6 months ($649K). They decided to list it for $750k and try for the 6 month - high end buyer. Later they flashed on the screen that it sold for ~$550k but didnt say how long it took. They listed what they had in it as $390k but I suspect they left out a few $'s like costs after ronovation is done until it sells along with other costs.
Well, I do work those kinds of hours but I'd rather not. Why? Because if I said I would get it done by a certain time, I try to hold up my end of the bargain. If the labor doesn't put in the hours I had expected, or the subs screw up or don't show, I work extra to minimize the damage.
But when I worked as a salaried employee, I noticed I was being sent to jobs where my boss, the owner, was asked to not return, and the timelines were tight, and the work was a little too leading edge...which took longer. (It was cusatom programed home automation systems...lighting controls, theatres, etc) So my hours were long...50 plus a week. Then I noticed that the guys under me were working less hours, not showing up when they said they would, and because they got paid overtime....they took home more money, and less responsibilities.
I decided that if I was going to be in that position I might as well do it for myself.
So I go the extra mile.
But I wouldn't think of agreeing to those timelines.
How can you do THAT much work and have it be done right?? I watched them build a porch with a roof on posts that had concrete being poured around them as the roof and deck structure was already built. Huh????
I wonder what kinds of shortcuts are taken, how much sanding is done to the woodwork between paint coats, or for that matter, do they even bother with primer?? LOL.
And permits? They put a dock in never pulled any kind of permit. The inspector showed up, and left a "Stop work order" ...which they obeyed until they saw his taillights. Then he came back and slapped them with threats about jail time, and fines for not having a lic. contrator. ,,,or a lic electrician....or plumber, and on and on.
The owner said "I can't wait for them..we work too fast for permits..."
Somehow, he came up with "engineering drawings" and then talked them into issueing permits overnight. Funny that we didn't see the cost of permits in the final tally.
I sure wouldn't want to buy any of the houses they "flip".
And I'm not a fan of what these shows say to our clients.
"But they did it on TV in only 14 days, and it only cost $XXX and it looked great!"
Yeaaa, right...
Jake Gulick
[email protected]
CarriageHouse Design
Black Rock, CT
I watched them build a porch with a roof on posts that had concrete being poured around them as the roof and deck structure was already built. Huh????
I though I saw that, too, last night, but thought I must have been halucinating - thanks for re-affirming my sanity.
I've watched the shows where they buy something for $250 or whatever, spend $50 renovating over the next 7 days and then sell the home for a $200 K profit.I wonder how the previous owners react when they watch the show. I think they would feel like they got shafted and sold the home too cheap to Trademark Properties?How does the new owner feel when he watches the show and sees how much profit Trademark Properties made? Wouldn't you feel like a fool driving down the street when all the neighbors know all the details about your new home and what you paid for it, etc?^^^^^^
"I watched them build a porch with a roof on posts that had concrete being poured around them as the roof and deck structure was already built."
Is that really all that out of wack? My neighbor's porch was done that way. It was built on temporary supports, then they dug out for the porch footings & poured around & under the posts.
Edited 3/28/2006 3:41 pm ET by Soultrain
Ginger isnt even that hot, she's almost hot. Sh'es got a nice bod but a butterface. I'd still throw her around a lit bit though.....................
Perfect word for her --- butterface.
But you know from being on site all the time when something like hewr comes around everybody looks , butterface or not.
Ginger isnt even that hot, she's almost hot. Sh'es got a nice bod but a butterface.
Ginger has a face? Oh, right, course she does. Guess I just never noticed. ;-)
Edit: I checked. She does have a face.
View Image
"A job well done is its own reward. Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"
Edited 3/28/2006 7:18 pm ET by philarenewal
Ahhhh, you just trying to play cool about it................
we know.................you gots the hots for Ginger.
Admit it.
<G>Corporate business today measures everything by the size of the silver dollar.
I watched the episode last night (I think it was a re-run) where the building inspector issued a stop work order because they failed to pull any permits. And what did they do? They ignored it! They actually freakin' ignored it with comments like "we do this all the time". THEY NEVER HEARD OF PERMITS??? Wow! It wasn't until a sheriff showed up and threatened them with arrest that they actually complied.
The show isn't about anything at all. It's just drama. And fake drama at that. Even if Trademark Properties is a real company and those people aren't just actors, I wouldn't work for them unless they paid me about the same amount of money I would need to whore myself out on the street corner (believe me, it's a lot).
Not only that, but I wouldn't consider buying a house that they had any involvement in. There's no integrity there and I wouldn't trust those people at all.
But again, it's not really a reality show (are any of them?), it's just drama.
-Don
>> I watched the episode last night where the building inspector issued a stop work order because they failed to pull any permits. And what did they do? They ignored it! Wasn't that the episode in which they went skeet shooting after the law showed up at the house? If I remember they were drinking beer between shots. Yeah, real professional bunch.
>>>.......unless they paid me about the same amount of money I would need to whore myself out on the street corner (believe me, it's a lot).<<<<
Oh, come on, now. Is it really THAT much?
ROFLMAO
Corporate business today measures everything by the size of the silver dollar.
Oh, come on, now. Is it really THAT much?
For you? Hmmmm, I'll think it over.
http://www.trademark-properties.com/charleston_real_estate_team_trademark.asp
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter
They should let some of those other girls on TV sometimes.
Corporate business today measures everything by the size of the silver dollar.
When I first starting watching the show with Trademark Properties they always used the same contractor. He's been gone for a while now.
Wonder what happened to him? ^^^^^^
"The Older We Get, The Better We Were"
what happened to the original contractor? maybe a drunken skeet shooting accident ?
I think that most of those shows are pretty amusing due to the time constraints and the unrealistic budgets. I was watching a show this past weekend that had a 3 story row home that a couple had purchased. The rear "porch" (all 3 stories of it) was rotted out. Needed to be completely torn down and rebuilt, requiring some masonry work (supported by deteriorated brick pillars at ground level) and mucho carpentry work.
The "expert" said about $1000 to tear it down and haul it away, 5-6K to rebuild. Labor must be free, because 5-6K would barely cover the materials. Where do they come up with these numbers?!!
I did work a 20hour day once on a rental property of my own. Bought the building knowing that it needed to be rehabbed. Was down to the wire with a tenant moving in (had to get the income stream flowing!). It wasn't like I waited 'til the last minute, either. I had been working steady days all along. But the final detail work is what takes all the time: install 8 locksets, towel bars, receptacles, install all light fixtures, etc. , etc., etc. Towards the end of the night (very early morning), I was pretty punch drunk.
It took me 2 days to recover from that marathon.
DIA
As the late Albert Collins sang, "I ain't drunk, I'm just drinking"!
I watched it for the first time last night. What a disgrace to our profession. I think they said they were going to put that dump on the market starting at 750K!
1. To be so blatent to the law's & codes of being a professional builder should be enough to put them out of business.
2. The Boneheads should be tracked down and arrested for drinking and using fire arms. I HOPE that the home owners in the communities that this takes place know who these Boneheads are and stay away from them.
3. What kind of pride (NONE) can any of them have when they operate that way. I know of contractors here that have those kind of mind sets ($ at any cost) and it just blows my mind. When my time is up I want as clean of a conscious as possible!All Things Wood!
Stephen Prunier Carpentry
Do you know how "Flip this House" makes money? They don't make the money on the houses, they make the money making the frigging show. How much advertising is there? Advertising pays the Big Bucks! Same goes for that other show with the fake construction crew as hosts called 'Extreme Makeover'. It's all paid for by Sears and they do it to get their name in front of the TV audience.
The whole scheme has been played out for decades and it's money is based on the sale of the PRESENTATION not the PRODUCT. PS: Quit looking after the first show cause I just couldn't stand the gals with the pink tool belts and all that went with it. Too much fluff and no substance. Air heads mostly!
I get a kick out of extreme home makeover...
the cast acts like they just rolled up yesterday without any leg work, sketch up a design, and magic...a brand new house.
in reality the planning has been going on for months. everything is staged and lined up to be brought onto the site. When you think about the "real" part of the show it is pretty amazing. the funny part is 95% of those who watch actually think it is by the seat of the pants.
I don't watch teevee, thank god or I think my brain would explode if I saw such a show. I have seen the shows on other people's tubes and heard about enough to know that the cablocracy can't offer anything worthy of my dollars.Work your employees like slaves -- on salary of course so you can keep payroll under control, but still meet your screwball deadlines, make more errors, have more possibility of injury and high burn-out with employees and your self. Seems foolishness to me.Like all the other 'home improvement' shows, this one again offers up to potential customers all kinds of unrealistic and ridiculous expectations of contractors/carpenters.
"my neighbor works his guys until all hours and expects them to stay no matter what ( he's a landscaper) , on occasion we've talked about it and he feels that since he buys lunch and it's mostly seasonal work that it's ok. I just don't agree."
Curious what kind of turnaround he has?
I watch that show now and again so can tell you they show what house sold for more often than not. I have wondered now that the show is out how people view them and their morals but I ask all of you this? They're in the real estate business (not builders), do you know many credible real estate people in your area? Ones around here wouldn't think twice about selling someone a termite infested house as long as they get their commision.
They're business model relies heavily on quick turnaround (all a numbers game) and seem to be upfront with contractors from day one. As for their listing prices many times (such as the Georgetown house) they called in an independent person to place value on the house and priced it below this, which it appears they do often for a quick sell.
I actually wish they'd come into my neighborhood, there's 2 houses that are dire need of a flip. Moral or immoral cleaning them up will only strengthen my investment!
They are making a lot more money doing the SHOW than they are flipping houses.
Corporate business today measures everything by the size of the silver dollar.
You gotta remember...................
.......................it's a show.
Yeah, totally. I love reality entertainment, especially when I love to hate it.
FTH is not about tradesmanship or craftsmanship. Its a drama about the personalities involved around the deadline.
I can totally relate to being on the job with somebody I can not stand. Remember that show Monster House, where they always managed to cast at least one total yahoo to make everybody else miserable for the course of the project? I love that aspect, but of course I would never do any of those ridiculous projects. Sci-fi house: pffft, pshaw.
On Flip this House, the main characters are those yahoos.
I would definitely take a deadline for the right money.
http://www.trademark-properties.com/
They look like they have a very nice website Mike. Thanks for digging that out.
I watched an episode last week, mainly to refresh my memory of what they do/are because there was another thread about them.
I guess I just don't get too upset at what they do. They take over a distressed property and do whatever they think they need to to make it market worthy. I guess I would get worked up if I thought that they were using carpenters to do electrical, but I don't see any evidence of that.
Personally, I'm going to have a hard time feeling sorry for someone that goes into that house and buys it for the 500k and fails to hire a competent inspector or fails to scrutinize it themselves. If they aren't satisfied with the paint jobs or the workmanship, they shouldn't buy it. It's that simple.
As I watched the show, I was looking for signs that told me that these people are shysters, but I don't see it. I see them as pushy, cheap, pushy and cheap, but hey....I've been dealing with that mentality all my career. I know how to say no and therefore I probably wouldn't be involved in a project with them, but I wouldn't suggest that everyone stay away. If they pay their bills, then they are entitled to set any scedule and demand that they want.
Should I feel sorry for the contractors? No. They choose to take the job. I'm sure most of them are enticed by being involved with a television shoot, in addition to some fast money. I'm quite sure that one of the carrots that this firm uses to entice the subs is to offer to pay immediately upon completion. Sometimes a guy just needs to clear a hole in his scedule for two days to generate some fast cash flow. Admittedly, I was looking for the positives in working with a group like this, but if you look hard enough, you'll see some good things.
One of the things I do like about the main man is his sense of humor and his driven attitude. He seems to have the type of personality that I prefer to be around. I like his decisiveness and conviction. I like the way he sets a deadline, then proclaims it to everybody, then does what it takes to achieve it.
The one thing that I really like about his operation is his marketing strategies, especially the buzz that he creates at the end with his elaborate open house. I can imagine him doing a massive neighborhood advertising campaign and inviting everyone on the block and their families to come and attend the open house. I'd like to see some data on the effectiveness of that approach. Of course, it's important to understand that when they do something like this, they aren't just trying to sell that house, but instead to generate other leads and listings and to add to their portfolio of buyers and investors.
All in all, I watched the show knowing that a lot of the stuff is just histrionics designed to spice up the ratings and generate controversy. I knew that that firm wasn't surviving with just those flips. Now after visinting their website, my suspicions were confirmed. They are a comprehensive reatly firm that buys, sells, and invests in many facets of the market.
Once again, I'm on the opposite side of the fence. I'm okay with the show. If they didn't have the drama and focused on craftmanship, it'd be just another TOH...which wouldn't last a season.
blue
"I guess I would get worked up if I thought that they were using carpenters to do electrical, but I don't see any evidence of that. "
Agreed, but I think it's not exactly black and white. Yesterdays show had a work stoppage due to neigbors complaints and lack of permits, and when he was informed he said "Ignore him, just get back to work as soon as he leaves. We don't have time for permits".
Then the neigbors called again, and the sherrif arrived, stating that anybody who didn't leave was going to jail. Richard, the main man, showed up and was not too respectful at first. He was cited and needs to appear in court for working without a permit, working without a license, doing electrical without a license, plumbing without a license, and some other stuff that was inaudible.
Now I don't know if, or if not, the work was apporpriate or not, but there is a reason to worry. In the rush to maximize profits, the system was getting screwed.
Also, I have to think that you are right, the buyer beware credo should always be kept in mind, so the onus is on the buyer of course.
But I hope people can see thru the numbers. That kind of budget won't get much quality work done around these parts...and I'm not sure it does there either.Jake Gulick
[email protected]
CarriageHouse Design
Black Rock, CT
But I hope people can see thru the numbers. That kind of budget won't get much quality work done around these parts...and I'm not sure it does there either.
The show I watched budgeted 50k for What amounted to cosmetic changes. I thought the budget was realistic. They did a lot of painting, including painting the cabinets. They added some landscaping, did some repairs, painted the deck...etc.
I remember tuning in briefly into that show that had the sheriff stopping them. I thought it was just another tyical day in a rebels life. I've seen the same type of thing happening in real life around here on occassion (in the good old days).
I'm going to confess that I've done more than my share of remodeling without permits. One of my biggest jobs in my earliest days involved doing some extensive, including structural renovation for a friend that found himself confined to a wheelchair for the rest of his life. A building inspector walked up about the time we were doing our finishing details and I had to do some explaining. After he popped his head into the attic and saw our properly installed beam, with all the hangers, he just drove off and told us not to try this anymore. I guess he felt sorry for the guy in the chair.
I don't advocate working without a permit, but I understand why some will try it, especially in localities that make it such a painful, slow process. These particular guys are simply doing it for the wow factor of television.
blue
I don't advocate working without a permit, but I understand why some will try it, especially in localities that make it such a painful, slow process. These particular guys are simply doing it for the wow factor of television.
The folks on the show in question had their permits within 3 days of being told they needed them. That doesn't sound like a painful, slow process at all. And they showed disdain for the entire process that ensures that people do not buy dangerous houses.
I just can't respect them. Apparently, they're a pretty large outfit that knew their flip was going to be televised. They should have known better AND shown more respect for the building inspection process.
-Don
Now do you really think they would expose themselves to that much liability?
Documenting on national TV that they were actually selling a house where they had done so much unpermitted work?
Smoke and mirrors for the cameras.
Corporate business today measures everything by the size of the silver dollar.
Yeah, so... what?
Those guys are jackazzes.
Trying to get all the subs (that you grab on street corners, parking lots etc) to work all night, weekends etc for "std pay" is crazy.
What they need to realize, and no one on the show says this, is that they are probably paying top $$, but getting crap work.
What is the interest on their loan (last house was 700K) for a month....$4,500 tops.
How much saved by doing it in 10 days....$3,000 tops.
How much extra paid out to the subs who bid with that kind of schedule??
How much better (and cheaper) could the work be if they took 30 days instead of 10, and all the subs were given 3 times the hours to complete it?
But....hey.....makes for great TV DRAMA........
EDIT.
What's the most important variable in real estate? LOCATION
Even w/ an extensive overhaul (10-30% of value)........home prices don't go up by 50-60 % in 30 days.
Or did they remodel the whole neighborhood and failed to mention it?
Edited 3/28/2006 2:26 pm ET by pickings
"How much better (and cheaper) could the work be if they took 30 days instead of 10, and all the subs were given 3 times the hours to complete it?"
You know, that thought crossed my mind too. Why not take more time on these shows? What's the big rush?
I think the answer is production costs. It probably costs a fortune to keep camera crews and other support people on a remote jobsite for several days/weeks. It's probably cheaper for them to rush the job schedule and pay more for workers than it is to stretch out their shooting schedule.
But - That's just speculation. I don't really know a lot about the industry as a whole.
I put tape on the mirrors in my house so I don't accidentally walk through into another dimension.
That is a good point. I am sure they rent the sound lighting and video equipment.
I was at a Rolling Stones concert in october. I happened to sit next to a guy who works in sound and lighting. He said very few tours and/or venues own their own sound and lighting equipment. It is all rented.
It probably gets quite expensive to tie up equipment for more than a week.
I think where the time savings is(money) is the management costs. Construction manager on a site for a week at $50k a year is $1000. Now make it a month and you got a another cost of $3000. Same goes for Ginger(she's OK) and all the other's.
Seems that they are not just looking in one area but move around looking for the deals everywhere. So, seems to be more efficient to get in and get out.
Plus more time to find things out and change you mind, more money.
Another thing to remember is that the faster they turn the properties over, the quicker they can sell them. This keeps their total cash(loan costs) down. If they take twice as long to flip their properties, then they have twice as much credit floating out there. It's a lot easier to get a loan for $1mil than it is for $2mil worth of inventory. At some point, if he keeps this up, he might not be needing investors/bankers.
As to the original post, when ever I have worked marathon hours, It seemed to take a day to recuperate. The more marathon days, the more days to recuperate
Edited 3/28/2006 3:34 pm by migraine
I think the answer is production costs. It probably costs a fortune to keep camera crews and other support people on a remote jobsite for several days/weeks.
Thanks boss, lost my mind for a moment.....I forgot.....it's TV........
Still wondering about the price going up 50% in a few weeks though. The house is still in the same LOCATION.
Doing a flip job for ourselves (DW and me) right now. It's 50 miles down the road, where you can get into a house for less than half of the local market costs. A long day for me is 10 hours, maybe 10.5, including travel. What's your life worth? You can work yourself into the ground, and all you get is a few more months off of your life.
Take your time, have some fun, make some money.
Bruce
Between the mountains and the desert ...
I guess I've been doing it wrong all these years...10 hours is a long day? Thats pretty much the norm in my world. God when I first got married I was out the door at 5am on the road the CT (from Boston, MA) and didn't get home until @9ish on a good day. I was allotted 10 hours straight OT on top of my normal salaried 40 hours. Now out the door every day at 7 am and never home before 6pm...compensation 40 hours...period!
Forgot where I saw this, but.......
The secret to a well balanced life is to only work 1/2 days.
The hard part is figuring which 12 hours you want to work.
It doesnt work . Its a show.
You work a mule all day long and he sets a pace by his memory of how long you work. Going to the barn to get feed he picks it up. Hes only in it for himself. He aint gonna kill himself .
If you burn and turn for 6 hrs you will out do 12 hrs paced and will be just as tired.
A lot of jobs you cant burn and turn but its a fact none the less. You can get all you want in 6 hrs.
Tim
I guess it would depend on the employee and what expectations were set out from the get go.
If the guys want to work the hours, the contractor is willing to pay the money, I don't see a problem. In the long run I think it will adversely affect production and quality, but once in a while if everyone is ok with it then no big deal.
If the contractor or owner or who ever can't find people to work the hours he want's/needs and is unwilling to a pay a premium for it that's his problem and he better understand why, on the other hand if he can find people to do it and can compensate them accordingly all the better.
If someone works for a company like that and sticks around then it's there problem, they can always leave.
my three cents anyway