I’m sure this has been asked before, but why are the screws on a GFCI “floating” instead of solidly in place like a regular outlet. Their so annoying to wire, especially hot. Anyone know why their built that way?
Discussion Forum
Discussion Forum
Up Next
Video Shorts
Featured Story
Listeners write in about ventilation and radon control and ask questions about tightening basement garages, ventilation solutions, and safer paint stripper.
Featured Video
Highlights
"I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.
Fine Homebuilding Magazine
Fine Home Building
Follow
-
Fine Homebuilding
Dig into cutting-edge approaches and decades of proven solutions with total access to our experts and tradespeople.
Start Free Trial Now -
GBA Prime
Get instant access to the latest developments in green building, research, and reports from the field.
Start Free Trial Now
- Home Group
- Antique Trader
- Arts & Crafts Homes
- Bank Note Reporter
- Cabin Life
- Cuisine at Home
- Fine Gardening
- Fine Woodworking
- Green Building Advisor
- Garden Gate
- Horticulture
- Keep Craft Alive
- Log Home Living
- Military Trader/Vehicles
- Numismatic News
- Numismaster
- Old Cars Weekly
- Old House Journal
- Period Homes
- Popular Woodworking
- Script
- ShopNotes
- Sports Collectors Digest
- Threads
- Timber Home Living
- Traditional Building
- Woodsmith
- World Coin News
- Writer's Digest
Replies
you are not spossed ta wrap the wires around the screw!!!
there are internal clamps
strip the wire and poke it in the hole and tighten.
RTFI!!!
Mr. T. MOTOL
"They keep talking about drafting a constitution for Iraq. Why don't we just give them ours? It was written by a lot of really smart guys, it's worked for over 200 years, and we're not using it anymore."
-- George Carlin
"I think natural selection must have greatly rewarded the ability to reassure oneself in a crisis with complete bull$hit."
I'm Swiss!
Every contractor I've talked to has always said plugging into the back is not as secure as wrapping the lead around the screw and tightening. That's not the correct way?
As far as doing it hot, it's only 110; it won't kill you just make you mad!
There's a difference between push-in connectors and the ones on a good GFCI. The ones on the GFCI also rely on a screw whereas the push-ins just rely on a little metal tab.
Regarding....
As far as doing it hot, it's only 110; it won't kill you just make you mad!
Well that's just ignorant, lazy, or both. Sorry, but it's the truth.
You turn off the power everytime you wire an outlet? I can understand doing it if you're going to install a sensitive, expensive dimmer, but a regular outlet, you shut off power? I'm impressed, but I could swear most of the electrical subs I've seen scoff at turning the power off as "for rookies". (The tile equivalent of using spacers...)
I bet you wear a safety harness when you're over six feet in the air!
Edited 11/6/2005 9:28 pm ET by Cooper
Edited 11/6/2005 9:30 pm ET by Cooper
well then , .
...those tough guys wouldn't work for me."
it's an interesting science experiment though.....something that can MELT steel but not KILL you,"
Only 110?
220+ Volts will throw you off of the circuit (if you are lucky). 110 Volts will grab on to you and hold on....
The only chance you have is if someone saw the whole thing and called 911.
Maybe I've never been shocked properly, but everytime I've been zapped it's felt less painful than a pinch. Not fun, not something I'd do on the weekends for kicks, but not particularly painful. I'm not talking about rewiring a double aught power lead to a main service, just an outlet. Is that so terrible?
Cooper, As I understand it, the potential for pesonal harm with 110V current is dependant upon two factors: (1) The path the current takes through your body; and (2) The conductivity of the surface(s) you are in contact with. The human body, with a high concentration of salts and electrolites, is a good conductor of electrical current. In fact, that's how much of our neural system works. If you are in contact with wet or high-conductivty materials, which have a path to ground, you will surely be seriously injured or killed if you short to ground.
I've had several run-ins with 100-220V current, usually due to expediant field work and or carelessness. Not somthing I would trivialize, even if a few were mere bites.
I 've worked with a number of electrical contractors and linesmen. I know many of them to be hard-working, profit-minded individuals. Not one of them would consider working hot execept on a most unusual case.
I think that you'll find the deziens of this message board to be, for the most part, capitalists (even the democrats :o )who are very mindful of profit margins. Being a capitalist doesn't dictate short-sighted risk-taking.
worst shock I ever got ,was from 110 ....put my #### in the hospital ....... that was in 1978 ...Memorial Day weekend.
I had managed to pull the skin off from both hands and when I came to, the paras were there with the paddles to resuscitate meBTW , Welcome to Breaktime"
Really? Wow. I can understand that, but really? I've NEVER, EVER, seen anything like that. I'm sorry that you were hurt, and I understand that you don't want that to happen to anyone else.
My girlfriend has been criticizing me for arguing my point, and thinks I'm wrong; that's why she say's I have no friends on this forum. So I am wrong, and I will never do it again.
Edited 11/6/2005 10:00 pm ET by Cooper
no wiseguy,
I was in changing out a damaged panel in a machine shop.like you care"
I honestly am not making fun of you almost dying. I can be an a$$ but not when someone almost gets killed. I am sorry that you got hurt.
I do wire in new breakers "hot" because there's normally not an easy way to pull power (unless you pull the meter). I stand on rubber and am diligent about it.
I was NOT making fun of your accident. I am sorry that you got hurt.
I would not change out a panel hot...that would be scary....
Edited 11/6/2005 10:12 pm ET by Cooper
There are sooo many factors involved with whether or not you die when you put yourself into an electrical circuit that it is tough to explain thoroughly, but here is a little more info...
It only takes milliamps to pass through your heart and interrupt it. If you grab one hot wire and can guarantee that you are not touching anything else, you are safe. The circuit isn't "closed" or complete. But if you are touching something that is completing the circuit, like a fridge, a metal door frame, a pipe, your metal watch or ring that is touching something.....
I've heard that rubber roofing isn't a reliable insulator, because some of it has some kind of metal in it. (???)
It only takes about fifty volts to push a few milliamps through your body, but the conditions have to be right. Ever take a nine volt battery and touch it to your tongue? You can feel it there, but the nine volts won't push that same current through your whole body because there is to much resistance.
In most cases, 110V will easily push enough current to kill you. But just stopping your heart is not the only thing to worry about. Electricity flowing through you will also cause internal burns that will harm your organs, sometimes permanently. So if you survive the initial contact, you may not be out of danger.
One obvious factor is the path that the current takes through you. It will take the path of least resistance. Your finger to your elbow on the same arm won't pass through your heart, one hand to the other will.
Hope this helps.There are no electrons! It is all made up. Don't believe it.
Electricity is made by GREENIES.
Thanks for the technical info. To your knowledge, do they make a device that can trip ordinary outlets? Similar to the trip button on a GFCI tester? That would simplify the task greatly...it makes for a great new tool.
Thanks again for the info...
The 9 volt battery stings the tongue because the current doesn't need to flow very far. Having said that, the current from a car battery can and will flow through a human body. Years ago, I worked with automotive 12 volt systems and was sitting on the door sill of a car on a hot, nasty, sticky humid day. I was wearing shorts and was in contact with bare metal. It was pretty interesting to feel my leg tingle every time I grabbed a wire that was hot while I hooked up the device.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
"that's why she say's I have no friends on this forum."I suspect 38 posts in 26 months might have more to do with it.And not coming to Fests!Rich BeckmanAnother day, another tool.
On top of the safety factors would'nt you just feel like a tool to catch a shock in front of the customer. if someone were doing electrical in my house and got a shock it would'nt instill alot of confidence.
BTW what do you use to keep the gaps uniform on wall tile since its rookie to use spacers? Or do you just make rookies do all the wall tile?
Can't anyone just take a joke? I swear my crew and I have a good time busting each other's balls. When I get on this site, I feel like there's a bunch BWC reps pushing some crazy agenda. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for safety (i.e. protective eye wear, gloves, hearing protection.), but maybe all of you "haters" have all "made it" and forgotten your roots---busting #### and meeting deadlines. I realize that most of you guys have been doing this for decades, and now are making the big money in the nice parts of town (and I appreciate that you've earned it), but doing everything with a hepa filter and a safety harness, and all the OSHA trimmings, isn't easy to conform with in the lesser markets.....so please lighten up! (I CANNOT believe that ALL of you guys turn off the power to change an outlet! I can understand if you've got to do several, or if there's a million wires, or if you've got to pull out a metal box and add another gang, but give me a break. This is the real world, right?)
Concerning spacers for wall tile: that's sort of unavoidable, but the master tile setters I now often use pieces of cardboard ripped off the box. Whenever I've offered to buy spacers, they've laughed their a$$ off....
it is funny... but...
someone sees something like that on here and trys it out... ouch...
BTW, since I am a little ignorant about electric, answer me this: can't you hold the power lead and not get shocked, as long as you're not grounded? In other words, as long as you don't touch any conductor, aren't you safe?
that is how you get lucky.
If you feel the buzz... you got a dead-end shock. The current tried to pass through your body, but couldn't find an exit path (what I believe the other fellow was referring to as making you mad). Thank the Lord you were wearing something other than your sweaty socks or grabbed the grounded box.
If it got a good path, it sure won't let go... And man would that hurt!
>>BTW, since I am a little ignorant about electric, answer me this: can't you hold the power lead and not get shocked, as long as you're not grounded? In other words, as long as you don't touch any conductor, aren't you safe? PotentialIn asking the question, you make it clear why you've taken the position you've taken.
View Image
Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
You can touch a hot lead and not be shocked, as long as you aren't touching the neutral or ground. Or something grounded. Something else to remember, if there are 2 circuits in the same box, the second one is supposed to be from the other phase, which means that if you touch both at the same time, you just got nailed by 220V, not 110V. If you're going to touch a hot lead and ground or neutral, do it with one hand, not one in each. If you do it with one hand, you get zapped. If you touch hot with one hand and neutral or ground with the other, you can die.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
I dont mean to bust any balls. Believe me I havent made it yet. I think i'm getting there but not yet. Yes, I promise, I always shut off the circuit. I have been behind w/ a dead line staring at me and the helper playing hooky, but I will still take the time to kill the circuit.
I figured the spacer thing was a little tongue and cheek, but I couldnt resist.
Thank you for seeing the lighter side....the comment about tile was funny, too...
CANNOT believe that ALL of you guys turn off the power to change an outlet!
That's precisely the attitude that cut off a good source of income for me (being old, but not having "made it"). Texas changed the rules Sep 04, must have a journeyman's license (and/or have one present) for any 110 work. Means I can't install X-10, dimmers, lighting scene controlers, any of that at all unless I sub it out. I can't swap or install ceiling fans, either.
Instead, a DIY homeowner can. It's still legal to risk/hazard your own house, but you can't hire any experience unless they are licensed electrians (with a lot more overhead & trip charges & whatnot to cover, making for much more expensive house calls).
I always turn the power off. No mater if outles, switch, or fixture. Double check that the box is quiet with a buzzer, too (been surprised a time or two--that "bug" paid for itself several times).
I use spacers on wall tile, too--but that may be because the fashion in these parts is for whopping big, heavy, wall tile . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Texas didn't allow any "grandfather clause" before they changed the rule?
Texas didn't allow any "grandfather clause" before they changed the rule?
Nope. It's a licensing change, so they don't have to. Work was ok one day, illegal the next. I know a surprising number of remo/handy people who are still unaware of the change, 13 months later.
Any house other than my own, I can contract the work out, I just can't perform it. (Can't have the JM just "on site," either, the work has to be performed "under supervision.")Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
KMA.
You know nothing about me except that I said something you didn't like. I've been in business for 3 years and am far from having 'made it'. Flipping a breaker takes all of 30 seconds. You wanna be a cowboy, be a cowboy. I couldn't care less. But it's 'tough guys' like you that pass on bad habits to new jacks by treating 'em like they're babies or something for looking out for their own well being. I've also noticed that the guys around jobsites that talk the biggest game are also the biggest pansies when the rubber hits the road.
I bet you wear a safety harness when you're over six feet in the air!
I don't, but if I did... what would that make me other than a smart business man?
Ever here of the Darwin awards?
You need to learn to chill and not be so critical of others, especially when you're showing your hypocrisy. You kid me about turning off a breaker, and then proceed to inform me that you frame houses without proper safety equipment? What's more dangerous: changing out an outlet hot, or walking on a three and a half inch wall plate twenty feet in the air in boots? (And I'm sure it's no picnic in Boston right now). I love it when someone, like you, chimes in with your safety tips and criticism, and then doesn't even have the integrity to set a good example. Your crews must laugh behind your back...
You are absolutely clueless dude.
Later.
Uma maldição em você...
>>>> Uma maldição em você...A curse in you ???Isso é coxo.
"And, in my humble view, neither Democratic nor Republican party politics has anything to do with lib or con anymore. It's now just pandering to the visceral hatred that's been bred amongst those who refuse to waste their time and energy performing one of the singular most difficult tasks known to man: thinking." -SHG
........yup"
been there, done that, no more - breaker's off or power's off or I don't touch itone big time rule on my job is don't touch wires - chief's aid usually cuts power as soon as possible and the electric co cuts the power at the pole - electricity can "travel" both ways aka backfeed so unless the power's cut, any wires are considered live
job security - my job, not yours
>>most of the electrical subs I've seen scoff at turning the power off as "for rookies". There are bold electricians.There are old electricians.There are no old, bold electricians.
View Image
Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
........As far as doing it hot, it's only 110; it won't kill you just make you mad!you have GOT to be kidding.
I hope you have your headstone picked out"
You're confusing spec (good) with stab in (junk). GFI's are the spec type. You insert the wire in the back but it relies on the screw to hold it in.
The contractors you've talked to are correct, the stab ins are junk.
BTW wiring devices hot (things like electronic dimmers) not only puts you at risk but you risk burning out the device. Take my word for it. I was working on a circuit that I was sure I turne off. I got a spark and blew out a $70 dollar dimmer. You're right it didnt kill me but the extra $70 did make me mad.
Edited 11/6/2005 8:39 pm ET by MSA1
Edited 11/6/2005 8:40 pm ET by MSA1
MSA1- If you're concerned over the maximum contact surface of the wire to the terminal on a spec pushin clamp as opposed to taking the time to wrap the wire around the screw to 4 o'clock,
the wire can be curved to close 90degrees before working it into it's pushin location and tightening the clamp by turning the screw.
Thus increasing the contact surface of the wire to the terminal area by the added length of the curved portion of wire now entering the opposite side of the entry location past the shank of the clamping screw.
If you want to get compulsive about it you can even go more than 90 degrees, but can't see the benefit for the addition PITA labor involved.
it's only 110; it won't kill you just make you mad!
ROTFLMFAO!!!
Hey, Cooper, What's yer favorite flower?
Still laughing.
Ok, so it's a snicker. WhakinIsay?
SamT
Sam,
Thanks for seeing the lighter side of an innocent comment. You make one apparently dangerous OSHA violation COMMENT and there's a feeding frenzy from the Breaktime Remodeling National Socialist Party...
Edited 11/6/2005 9:57 pm ET by Cooper
Cooper,
T'wern't laughin' at the "dangerous OSHA violation COMMENT." I was humored by the implications of ignorance in the "apparently" part of yer statement.
I will admit that I was laughing "at you" in my first post. Hopefully to shame you into NOT believing that 110 can't kill.
However, since reading your replies to the other guys here, it is clear that you have been well taught by a bunch of well meaning old ignoramouses who were just carrying on a tradition of teaching what they were taught.
Believe me.
I have 4 years of 40 hour weeks of electrical/electronics school background from the USNavy. I taught the subject for 1 year. I have worked live with everything from 5VDC-60 Amp to 23KV-13KW. I built my first radio from scratch when I was 14yo. I have worked on multimegawatt plants.
110vac kills more people than all other voltages combined.
Let me repeat that for emphasis.
110vac kills more people than all other voltages combined.
Not because it is the most dangerous, but because of well meaning old ignoramouses who were just carrying on a tradition of teaching what they were taught and that was the wrong thing.
Yes, I have been zapped by 110. And 1200. And almost by that 23KV-13KW, but that was no accident and is another story.
Now-a-days I refuse absolutely to work live on anything over 110 and whenever at all possible on 110 itself. My life is worth an extra hours time, expecially when someone else is paying me to take that time. Safety is really cheap compared to the cost of the paperwork ya gotta fill out if ya die.
If I absolutely must work on 110- live, I first:
be very, very careful in all steps
Make sure only one wire at a time is hot
test to be sure I know which wire is hot
insulate the surface I'm standing on
wear insulative shoes
remove jewlry and other metal from my person
look carefully for ground paths
use, inspecting each time, insulated tools
insulate my off hand
make sure the arm handling the hot wire is grounded
push the ground wire out of the way
cap the return wire
did I mention be very, very careful and deliberate, and think out each movement before you even twitch
connect the hot wire
insulate the hot connection
finish other connections
Wipe the sweat off and give thanks that I still can
Usually quicker to just turn off the stupid breaker and get the drop cord for lighting, which is the only excuse to ever work live. Opening the breaker kills the lights.
SamT
FWIW...good point about working the circuit live because it also feeds the light.
Get one of those headband things with a little light, $10 at walmart. Work in the dark with both hands free. Throw out just enough light to wire. Use AA batteries that seem to last forever. Put it in your "electrical" tool box along with the Klien pliers, testers, etc.
Thanks for taking the time to explain the seriousness of working with 110. I have never had the guts to work on anything larger live, except adding circuits to a live box. I have never seen anyone get anything but a zap from 110 (thankfully), and do not want to watch any of my guys (all three) get killed (or ruin my BWC group rating!).
Is there a tool that will trip a breaker from the outlet, sort of like a GFCI tester?
I must say from the slamming I took on this post that I'm the only contractor in the world that ever changes out outlets hot! I must have been lucky since I don't wear jewelry, don't sweat much, have insulated tools, use the tester to verify which hot line (if they're are multiple in the box) is hot, and work with care and diligence. My intention was not to come across "Mr. Macho Sparky", but just to point out that my experience in the field has been that most contractors I know, change out the single outlets hot. I love this forum for it's information and the contractors who add their experience with wit and humor; I don't like the pompous, holier-than-thou, know-it-alls, that like to eviscerate a comment made in jest....you know who you are...
Coop, one of the real concerns is that there is an unseen, unheard horde of readers of this forum, with levels of experience from pro to not knowing one end of a screwdriver from another.
The fear is that someone with absolutely no other knowledge than what they may have gathered from an isolated thread might attempt to work on a live outlet, because someone here forcefully argued that it was safe for them.
The same for other tasks that many of us have taken years to make look easy. While at one time I considered the risks of walking glu-lam ridges 30' up acceptable, I would never state that it was a safe practice.
Carry on.The heck, you say?
There is not such a tool, and it would be a bad idea to short a breaker out on purpose to find it or shut it off. One reason would be because of the danger when the short occurs: the arc flash and the molten metal flying around. Another reason is that it is not good for the breakers, it causes them to prematurely wear out. Granted, you would have to do it a lot to cause a noticeable failure in most cases, but it is not good for the equipment.
There is a good circuit tracer made by Ideal that I use frequently to find the breaker if the panel isn't marked. You plug one part into the circuit and the other you take to the panel and it indicates with lights and sounds which breaker is the one you want to shut off. It is not fool proof, especially on very old systems or buildings with a lot of electrical interference, but I've found it to be very reliable. If you need to find the breaker for a switch you can plug it into an adapter that you screw into a light socket.
It wouldn't hurt to pick up a couple of breaker lockout devices. They are cheap and the will save you from that one dolt on the job who likes to flip breakers. He always seams to show up and turn on the one you are working on when you have a hold of the hot wire. Lock it out and no one can turn it on until you are done.There are no electrons! It is all made up. Don't believe it.
Electricity is made by GREENIES.
"There is not such a tool, and it would be a bad idea to short a breaker out on purpose to find it or shut it off. "There is. CAP has a breaker test that puts on a calibrated load and monitors when the breaker test.However, it is fairly expensive and the special contactor needs to be replaced after so many tests.BTW, I have not had much luck with using the circuit tracer to find the right breaker. In fact in a house with multiple panels it will often indicate on more than one panel.However, I have found that it is fool proof if you can get the receiver sensitivity set to beep and then start flipping breakers until it stops.
Bill,
Hey, you've got a good memory!
The website for the breaker tester (that trips a 15 or 20 amp branch circuit breaker, safely) is
http://www.koinstruments.com/
It's a very useful tool; I use it to test older breakers in residential occupancies. In commercial and industrial settings, I use it to trip the breaker so I can work on the circuit. It's easier to trip a breaker and then find it in a panel than to use even a good breaker sniffer. Of course, I advise the client that a circuit is going to be shut down, so they need to batten down the hatches (as in, make sure equipment in that part of the building can lose power without creating a serious problem.)
The tester is not cheap, but I can work a lot faster and safer using it.
As far as Cooper's original post, he must be more careful than I am. Once upon a time, I occasionally worked 120 branch circuits hot. Too inconvenient to I.D. the breaker. As careful as I might be, I'd get bit occasionally. Finally I decided it wasn't worth it. Now I just cut the power. Although they may be inconvenienced, almost all my clients actually feel more comfortable knowing that I'm not working on a live circuit.
Of course, you've got to do some testing on energized circuits. That's different than changing out a receptacle.
I figured that Cooper will have to learn his own lesson, and hopefully it won't be a lethal one.
There are rare occasions when I work a circuit hot, and then I use 1000V insulated tools and 500V gloves, flame-resistant clothing, etc. What a PITA.
Cliff
I've watched a number of seasoned electricians while doing work at my house or the building I work at. When working on something such as changing an 120v outlet, they will always work on it hot if finding the breaker is any sort of inconvenience. Even when I volunteer to go find the breaker for them, they assure me that they work on stuff hot all the time. Then they go at it with their insulated tools and bare hands. I would never suggest that a DIYer like myself work this way (I'll spend all day looking for a breaker if I have to.) but the pros I have talked to suggest that this is common for electricians at their skill level. One old timer even told me about the old timers that he learned from. Said they used to test a wire by grounding it with two fingers on the same hand.
I would also add that very few electricians take the time to go back and label a breaker when they make changes. After spending hours doing a good safe job, why won't they take a minute to label their work to make it easier for the next guy trying to work safe.
There are rare occasions when I work a circuit hot, and then I use 1000V insulated tools and 500V gloves, flame-resistant clothing, etc. What a PITA
Our company safety rules require us to wear PPE when working on anything at or above 240v. That means safety glasses, low voltage gloves, and a nomex flash jacket. We already wear 100% cotton uniforms, so we are pretty much protected from melt burns caused by synthetic clothing.
That means every time we pull the cover off a panel we have to "dress for the occasion". Open up a 3000 amp switch gear and we add a face shield and hard hat to the costume.
The whole routine is a royal PITA, but since the policy was established in 1996, we haven't had any hot contact injuries. We did have one broken hand from a fuse blow out in a motor control center, and that incident could had been worse if the electrician had been standing in front of the switch (we stand to one side when energizing a switch).
We go way beyond what OSHA and most electrician consider safe practices. Not surprising the, that we have the best safety record for a utility company in the country.
Dave
Dave, I don't know if I ever posted this here, it seems appropriate......... don't you think?
BTW, I snapped this picture in the Spring ..2001"
That is a 10.0 on the pucker factor scale if I am on site.
Got a story to go with it?
Dave
Yes,
the short version.....during some equipment testing.....This is a peaker BTW....an air break was closed on a 345Kv line backfeeding into the plant. through two transformers and then into this 5Kv gear.....prior to the testing, the 5Kv feeder cables from the smaller AUX transformer were disconnected in that cabinet , shoved above a barrier, and a temp feed was re-connected.I was the Start-Up GF for the electricians,
so I was " witnessing " this latest testThe cables that had been placed above the barrier were not insulated only isolated, so when the switch was ordered closed
,and after being told to not worry about it, the obviously shorted cables blew up about twenty feet from where I was standing.
That picture was not taken with a tele photo lens"
Bill, Ideal has improved the circuit tracer. The old one with the sensitivity dial was a PITA to work with. The new one auto adjusts. If you have all your breakers in the same area, it is easy to pass the receiver over all of them two or three times until the tester decides which one (or two or three) it likes the best. Its a huge improvement on the old tester and the new one is now a pretty reliable tool.There are no electrons! It is all made up. Don't believe it.
Electricity is made by GREENIES.
"Thanks for taking the time to explain the seriousness of working with 110. "Just a reminder, if you work on residential receptacles it ain't 110 volts.It is 120 volts, which is even worse.
It won't kill you? BS! It's called 'high voltage' because it CAN kill. The NEC codebook definition of low voltage is "no lethal voltage present". In order to reduce the risk of death, make sure that wherever you come in contact with the voltage, it's the same area that goes to ground or the load. NEVER touch hot with one hand and the load or ground with the other side of your body. It doesn't take much to stop a heart.You think they make GFCI's to protect the electrical equipment in the house?"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Edited 11/6/2005 10:13 pm by highfigh
they say, "volts that jolt, but it's the mils that kills"
a person can take thousands of volts (as with a Vandegraf generator to make your hair stand on end) but a few mili-Amperes passed through your body can screw up your biological signals and stop your heart.
standard electrical theory states that it is the load that determines the amount of current passing through the circuit.
if... you are the load, it presents almost a low resistance because we are mostly water. The current can spike, like a dead short. The current could theoretically build until the resistance increases (all of the water is dried from your cells and your flesh is burnt).
I wouldn't want to think about the thousands of Amperes that would work out to being.
very, very good point about GFCI's
Edited 11/6/2005 10:28 pm ET by opie10
I've heard the horror stories about guys working on poles, and having their legs blown off...is that true? I've always thiought that was urban legendesque remodeling tales to scare the new guys...
nope... so true...
truth is scarier than fiction
think about it... what would happen if your arced a screwdriver across 110? it would eat it for lunch (aka. plier or screwdriver welding). Same thing happens to your body. elctricity goes through your body and finds the least resistance exit point into the pole. Meanwhile it has boiled off all of the water in your cells at such a rapid rate that the water (now a gas) explodes the cell structure as it expands.
It litterally blows your legs off
Opie10 is right about high voltage severly wounding and maiming linemen. i know several of them.
High voltage as defined by OSHA is 600v and above. PPEs must be worn when working at or above that voltage.
Someone also mentioned milamps being capable of stopping your heart. That is the reason you are putting in the GFCI s. They interupt the circuite when detect a difference incurrent between the hot and neutral.
As far as you not turning off a breaker to wire in one device, that is your call, but it is not a good practice. I have worked as an electrician for a utility company for over 20 years now, and been bitten by 120v and 277v (single phase) many times. Each time it was because I violated a company safety rule, because I got lazy and was in a hurry. Being macho has nothing to do with it. Being in a hurry and thinking that you have the skills to keep from scewing the pooch does.
Maybe 4Lorn1, CAP, or Bill Hartman will chime in here. Bill is an EE, CAP and 4Lorn1 are master electricians with tons of knowledge to share with you,...if you are willing to take it.
Dave
buncha chicks ....
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
kinda reminds me of the j box thread don't it?It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
[email protected]
yeah, but that was about breaking the law ...
this one is about good clean fun ... like zapping yerself every now and then.
like I did on Tues ... a coupla times.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
BS! 50 volts will kill you.There are no electrons! It is all made up. Don't believe it.
Electricity is made by GREENIES.
As far as doing it hot, it's only 110; it won't kill you just make you mad!
A 12V car battery can kill you under the right conditions. There are so many variables to contend with. Your body's resistance to current, moisture in the air, impedence of the conductor you are dealing with, ect. You can be killed by as little as 20 mA if the current is traveling through the right part of your body.
Under MOST environmental conditions you could get away with contact, however, you don't have control over humidity levels, and many other things that could make you a nice conductor. It's better to show a little healthy fear than to be dead because you didn't take 2 seconds to switch off the breaker.
......Their so annoying to wire, especially hot.....
I'll bet they are, ...why is the power ON?
What Mister T said. If you buy the better outlets in supply houses not the 49c ones at HD they are the same way. Alot of people think the hole on those are pushins which there not. Pushins are only on the chaep outlets.
And why are the hot, just kill the breaker.
Headstong, I'll take on anyone!
So you don't think a simple 110v circuit can kill you. It's a 15A circuit, and it only takes 0.07A to kill you if you 'happen' to be grounded or touch something to ground yourself. After 0.02A you won't be able to let go if you wanted to because the electrical impulse will cause your muscles to tighten their grip. Hey man, go ahead and work on it live, 'cause you're cool. I prefer to roll the dice at the casino. I think I'll be a rookie and stand back and watch you for entertainment.
Breakers protect the wire from catching fire, GFCIs trip at 0.005A to protect you from catching fire (and dying).