I checked out a floor issue for my nephew a couple of days ago and I think I gave him the correct advice, but I thought I would run it by some of you floor refinishers. He had a new red oak floor installed this past fall in his house in NW Ohio. The finisher did a poor job of cleanup after sanding and then applied a stain and two coats of alkyd poly without sanding between coats. My nephew told them that the job was unacceptable and they came back and sanded and applied three coats of satin poly without ever sanding between coats and giving it only 8 hrs. to dry. They put one coat on in the morning and came back at 5 and put another coat on and came back the next morning and applied the last coat. This was in humid August. Now the finish is lifting at most of the joints in the 3″ boards at the edges and the ends. I am a furniture maker and use Pre-cat lacquers on my pieces and am not that faimiliar with Polys, but it looks like the film finish is too thick and was not given sufficient time to cure between coats. If you drop any flatware on it it will chip as well. The floor guy says he has never seen anything like it and he thinks it is a moisture problem. I think he is wrong because moisture would lift the finish anywhere on the board not just the joints. What do the experts think?
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What did it say on the can of finish? It sounds like they didn't wait long enouygh between coats. Do you know what brand finish they used?
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Edited 5/17/2008 9:04 pm ET by FastEddie
I would agree if it was a water based finish, but in humid NW Ohio in August I am not so sure about oil-based finishes. I have trouble with lacquer drying properly in August sometimes. They finished the floor right after the big flood last year.
>>They finished the floor right after the big flood last year.Which one? Findlay? Pemberville? What kind of space under the floor? Crawl? Basement? Did it get flooded?
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Findlay. His house is on the south end of town so the flood did not directly effect them, but I think the contractors were so busy they just rushed through his job. Like most houses in Findlay, some of the floor is over crawl , some is over a basement and I didn't notice any difference in the floor over the crawl space as opposed to the basement. That is why I did not think it was moisture related as the finisher is suggesting. If moisture were the culprit it should be worse over a 50 year old crawl space then over a heated basement and it is not. The new floor is over the entire first floor and I could find no pattern, it is lifting in areas over the entire first floor.
Terry, welcome to BT.
Since I'm in Toledo, who did the job? Email me if you don't want to broadcast it.
thanks.
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I hate to say it but they just did a lousy job. Worst thing is, if they redo it (again)they'll most likely grudgingly do an even worse job. It needs sanded again and redone. Maybe he can sue them for the cost.
Good luck with it.
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Edited 5/17/2008 11:00 pm by Ted W.
My nephew is a lawyer. Probably the wrong customer to mess with, but he doesn't know much about construction. I neglected to add that the guys used satin in all the subcoats so the final finish looks cloudy. You would think any finisher would know to use gloss until the last coat.
"My nephew is a lawyer..."
We, that certainly streamlines things.
For what it's worth, the floor guy I often use does a thorough clean-up after each sanding or buffing. He applies shellac as an initial sealer coat and uses a buffer after it dries, before applying the first coat of varnish. He uses the buffer again before applying the second coat of varnish. I don't know exactly what grits of sanding belts or buffer pads he uses, but that's his process.
It's not uncommon for him to apply the seal coat and come back that same day to do the first coat of poly, but I've never seen him apply 2 coats of poly the same day. Maybe some finishers do, and I'm not saying that his is the only correct way to finish a floor. Just that the guys who finished your nephews floor seem to have been in a hurry to get in and out as quickly as possible, with no concern for the quality of their work.
It's not moisture, it poor quality workmanship. It has to be redone.
One thing I should mention is it's possible the floor might not handle yet a third sanding, depending on how much material they removed with the first two sandings. I know with old floors that have been sanded and refinished a few times, eventually it reaches the tounge and groove. Just something to be aware of. Since it's a new floor, with no deep gouges or stains to sand out, I doubt this is an issue. but if they just ripped at it with 36 grit for each of the two sandings, this may be an issue. --------------------------------------------------------
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Ted,
That is one of the major concerns I relayed to my nephew. A wood floor has a life span due to the number of sandings it can handle before the t&g joints begin to crack. This was a new floor that was sanded after installation, then stained and finished. He just scuff sanded after the rough finish the first attempt, but you are right he will have to hog it down to bare wood to fix his mistakes. In doing that, he is shortening the life of the floor. Typically, wood floors can handle 4 sandings if done carefully by an expert and 3 if done by a wood butcher. My nephew is only 32 and is worried about the life span of about 1,100 sq. ft. of new oak flooring because it has to be stripped. Sanding is the only way I know to accomplish this. I don't think it can be done chemically. I am not sure I would want to live there after a chemical strip. I am sure this is going to end up in court.
The problem at the joints sounds like too much movement in the boards. Possibly loose fitting tongue and groove, combined with too much varnish. Possibly not enough fasteners. If it was a moisture problem you would likely have cupping evident in many areas. Poor clean-up indicates poor workmanship in all areas.
Rich
Rich,
That was my first suspicion, but after seeing the floor for the first time it is remarkably well laid. The joints are tight and there is no cupping of the boards at all. I think the installer thought he was a finisher and obviously he is not.
These guys either don't know what they're doing or they don't care.......cause they wouldn't have applied three coats of satin if they did. I can only imagine that the floor is quite cloudy looking now.
There are all manner of potential application issues that could be causing the problem.
Did they use an oil/alkyd based poly for the additional coats or did they instead use a waterborne? Additional adhesion problems could occur if they used a WB and used an aluminum oxide to presand the existing finish. Particularly so since they don't seem to feel that proper cleanup is necessary before applying the finish. The lubricants in the sandpaper can cause adhesion problems with WB finish.
If there was sanding dust left in the floor cracks prior to the original stain and finish applications, this could also lead to improper curing and bonding issues. However, if the floor was installed tightly and then immediately finished, I doubt there were many, if any, cracks to catch a substantial amount of dust. But if there were cracks between the boards at the time of finishing, this would bring up another potential problem as regards the application of multiple thick coats of finish applied in rapid succession; poly-beading. Since you titled your thread "floor bubbling", this might be the case. If gobs of poly finish are allowed to flow down into the cracks, that material can skin over on the surface leaving the underlying finish undried and uncured. This could be a bigger problem since those 3 coats of finish were applied after there was already a dried finish down in those cracks. Zero absorption of the finish into the wood could then take place. The end result would be similar to opening a can of finish and allowing it to skin over. Poly-beading can result which means little BBs or bubbles can form later from the solvents trapped below............or when the floor boards swell and squeeze out that uncured finish in the cracks. Try poking a feeler gauge or something similar down into the finish between the boards. Soft or gummy?
Another possibility......too many rapid coats or too thick of coats of WB poly may never cure properly. Humid conditons exacerbate the situation with WB. If they did use WB the second time around, that may be the issue. Or if they applied WB before underlying OB had completely finished curing. 6 weeks or so. Solvents still trying to escape from underneath can adversely affect the adhesion of the top coats of a disimilar finish.
If the floorboards were truly tight and multiple thick coats were applied, what you could have now is the result of "panelization" of the finish. IOW, the finish formed one big thick skin which bridged all the little cracks. As the floor shrinks during the winter heating months, stresses develop in that finish skin which can/will tear right above the cracks between the floor boards. The thicker the skin, the greater the odds of problems from that. If the bond is poor at the edges of those boards (contamination or other interferences from poor prep practices), the finish can also peel back a bit more.
Was the stain they used compatible with the orginal OB finish? Or did they use a WB stain which they then finished over before the moisture/water from the stain was allowed to escape? Poor bonding would result if they rushed it.
Too many potential problems/issues to know which one/ones might be the problem , but they likely screwed it up royal. There's also the potential that they had some faulty product on their hands, but judging from your description I suspect they made their own problems. Maybe they used old finish they had lying around the shop that was allowed to freeze in the past. Impossible to say or know from here.
Is the finish peeling back to bare wood or to the underlying original coats of finish? The answer should tell you when the biggest mistake was made as regards the adhesion/bonding.
Edited 5/18/2008 12:20 pm ET by HootOwl
This was a new floor applied after tearing up the old wood floor because it had been sanded through it's 4 sandings and was cracking at some of the t&g joints. So they started with new 3" red oak and new subfloor because it was damaged enough in the tear out that the general contractor replaced a lot of the subfloor boards. I suspected your panelization theory from the start and that is what I told my nephew. The floor is well laid but the guy screwed up the finish. He did not clean up meticulously after the first sanding and all the problems compounded from there. Rough finish after two coats resulted in throwing more product down to smooth out the initial mistake. Too much product in too little time I think is causing the adhesion problems. It is so thick when the boards do move( as all wood does) it acts a one big sheet of plastic. Is the BONA floor products the best thing going right now? I have read good things about BONA but have never used it.
I don't think it can be done chemically.
Sure it can. Or mostly likely so. Poly finishes are stripped off of furniture/cabinets/woodwork everyday of the week.
Would cost some $$$, but so will a whole new floor.
I am not sure I would want to live there after a chemical strip.
Why? Open the windows and air the place out well for a few days. Should be okay, me thinks.
Bona makes good products. But......what is the "best" finish for any given project......depends. Lots of different factors to take into acccount.
Frenchy will be along shortly to tell you......SHELLAC!!! LOL
One upside to using shellac for a floor is that if it gets screwed up, it's easy to either remedy or remove and try again. Mighty high shine though and not as resistant to alcohol, ammonia and various other chemicals as most modern synthetic finishes are. If you get wet salt on a shellac finish (think salted winter sidewalks,etc).....it doesn't fare very well in my experience.
Edited 5/18/2008 8:04 pm ET by HootOwl
From what I understand, you can use stripper to remove the visible poly, but there will always be a residue left in the grain the you can only get out by sanding. I have to admit though, I've stripped old trim and pieces of furniture which I believe had a poly finish, with no problem. Even restained some pieces without any problems, stain soaked in just fine. However, I don't know that the poly was the original finish. It may have been applied on top of something else. Also, the original stain might have acted as a sealer, preventing the poly from penetrating the grain. I've never stripped poly that was applied directly to raw wood, that I know of, but I've heard more than a few times that it can't be completly removed without sanding.
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Edited 5/18/2008 9:42 pm by Ted W.
Can't recall having a refinishing problem from remaining poly residue including on pieces I know had the poly applied to the bare wood. If light sanding isn't possible or appropriate, I'll do an immediate follow up to the removal of the semi-paste stripper with a quick washdown of lacquer thinner or even a liquid stripper. Work in managable size areas that can be washed down before any residue from the finish or the semi-paste stripper has a chance to dry out again. This all presumes the use of a methylene chloride based semi-paste stripper because that's what's most effective at removing polys in my experience.
Yes, removing poly finishes is alot like work. <G>
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Sure ya can. And I wouldn't take offense.
Maybe I've just been lucky. ;-)
I've always used denatured alcohol for the final rinse, as lacquer thinner gives me a serious headache. I mean like my head is cracking down the center. I guess I could use a respirator and some heavy duty venting if I need to. Or I could just stick with carpentry and avoid fumes altogether.
BTW, I did strip a floor with liquid stripper once, and mopped it with tinted poly. Came out looking real good but I know it couldn't have lasted. It was for a good customer who needed to do a quick fix-up in an apartment he owns. I told him it won't last and he said that's okay, that he plans on remodeling it later and the floors will get sanded at that time. --------------------------------------------------------
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