has anyone heard of sawdust from a floor refinishing causing a fire? The wood floor guys applied osmos polyx-oil to the floors way too thick not once but twice. They sanded off the 3 day old finish again friday, dumped the dust in a pile outside and left the sander inside on the floor full of dust. I showed up saturday to apply the finish myself and was greeted to a house full of smoke and the sander laying in a 4′ diameter hole burned in the floor. The only reason the whole house didnt burn down was the fire burned through a pex line which extinguished it and then proceeded to flood the entire basement remodel ive spent the last 3 months slaving on. The pile of sawdust outside also burned in a seperate fire. what a hell day. was this a fluke or should the finishers have known of this risk?
Discussion Forum
Discussion Forum
Up Next
Video Shorts
Featured Story
Listeners write in about fostering trade work and proposed changes to Canadian code and ask questions about roof and wall insulation for an old house.
Featured Video
Highlights
"I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.
Fine Homebuilding Magazine
Fine Home Building
Follow
-
Fine Homebuilding
Dig into cutting-edge approaches and decades of proven solutions with total access to our experts and tradespeople.
Start Free Trial Now -
GBA Prime
Get instant access to the latest developments in green building, research, and reports from the field.
Start Free Trial Now
- Home Group
- Antique Trader
- Arts & Crafts Homes
- Bank Note Reporter
- Cabin Life
- Cuisine at Home
- Fine Gardening
- Fine Woodworking
- Green Building Advisor
- Garden Gate
- Horticulture
- Keep Craft Alive
- Log Home Living
- Military Trader/Vehicles
- Numismatic News
- Numismaster
- Old Cars Weekly
- Old House Journal
- Period Homes
- Popular Woodworking
- Script
- ShopNotes
- Sports Collectors Digest
- Threads
- Timber Home Living
- Traditional Building
- Woodsmith
- World Coin News
- Writer's Digest
Replies
They must have been smokin' some of that "Sandin' Weed."
One thing I, and most of the other contractors I know, am pretty anal about how we handle clean up and end use of solvents, stains, dust and any other flammables.
I have read countless stories of new and reburbished homes with work in progress that were heavily damaged or burned to the ground as a result of leaving staining rags piled in a bucket or dust fires from sanders left full (sometimes just a lingering spark from sander grit hitting a nailhead) and other carelessness.
I'm sorry for your experience....that would be one of my worst nightmares just behind a serious injury....or worse.
I believe your floor finisher is absolutely responsible and his liability insurance (hopefully he has it) should cover the repair of your damge.
My husband, RIP, had a flooring business. When he taught me to sand floors, he cautioned me against just such a hazard from even plain sanding dust left in the dust collection bag of the edge sander even and esp the larger drum sander bag; oily dust would be even worse. We made sure the bag was empty at the end of every day. Condolences on the mess and go after the idiots for full reparations.
SOP is to treat all sawdust as a volatile flamable.
it is especially so with sanders because of the friction heat that can build up and the occasional spark that is created when a nail head is exposed by the sanding pocess. All sawdust is required to be set outside the building from floor sanding.
That is normal procedure. Your situation made it dounbly important because of the finishing solids that were uncured. Just like an oil rag, spontaneous ccombustion was highly likely.
IMO, this was not an accident. They caused it thru negligence.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
I have a friend who is fixing up a vacant investment house. She is a realtor and she is doing a little of the work but mostly hiring the work to be done.It caught fire in the middle of the night about a month ago and did $20 to $30 K in damage.They're trying to figure out what caused the fire.She's having problems with her homeowners insurance not covering the full extent of the damages but I don't know all the details.She's pretty shook up about the whole thing.
^^^^^^
S N A F U (Situation Normal: All Fouled Up)
I am just finishing a rebuid of a large house that went down from the sanders bags.
As a volonteer fireman , in the past 25 years I have been to 7 houses that burned -mostly to the ground, from just that.
Many time the fire alarms are disabled because the dust was setting them off, then if the bags are left inside&combust, nobody knows about it unill the flames come through the roof.
jayzog
Is that house saveable? Looks like it did some serious damage!
Doug
We knocke 75% of it down to the first floor deck.
This what it looks like now. (srry bout the file size)
Beautiful house! not sure about the pink but you did a great job... is it just my eyesight, or is there an extra floor after the fire?
My method for dealing with dust is to put a trash bag in a 5 gallon bucket, start it with a couple gallons of water, and fill it with dust. Then more water to get the whole thing sticky damp. I wasn't so much thinking about fire as just not making a mess when the garbage truck tips the dumpster.
-- J.S.
I had a bag of sawdust from sanders catch fire but fortunately it was in the driveway when it happened. Thought it was a prank at first. The geniuses put a mostly empty can of polyurethane in the bag along with the sawdust. I'm not sure the effect it had but I'm sure it didn't help.
Sorry to hear about the fire and mostly about the 3 months work that got compromised. That really stinks.
wow, my gut told me these guys screwed up, i just didnt realize how common it was. Interesting, i would never consider leaving a pile of wet rags laying around but hadnt considered the sanders. These guys have been a nightmare for both myself and especially the homeowner who now gets to spend Christmas in a hotel instead of in his finished remodel. Any advice as to dealing with subs insurance companies?(they are insured) How long typically to settle? Who pays for the remodel of the remodel? Do they just cut the homeowner a check for repair? Thanks for the great advice as usual.
I'm an owner/builder so I could only speculate on how to proceed. I wish you luck.
This sure reinforces the point about requiring all subs to have limits of liability insuance equal to my own. Thanks for the reminder.
Wow. Romania wasn't built in a day.
i know at least two houses that burned from spontaneous combustion ( rags in both cases )
i also used to see the mulch pile ( cedar bark ) that belonged to our landscaper , catch fire every spring, shortly after the new mulch was delivered
floor sandings are especially volatileMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I know a bloke up in the Great North Wet who has a pile of sawdust next to his shop that is just asking to catch fire. ( he can't sing Waltzing Matilda either but his wife sure can chop wood)
howdy, mark... g'day to yaMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Hi Mike ( and say hello to the little dutch girl )
How go the typhoon repairs, Mark?
still at it..we hope to be out of here come April, that'll be a full year away from home.
I would prepare an estimate to replace and repair, then give them three days to get back to me with a check for a deposit. After that, if they dilly-dallied, I would be talking to my lawyer to handle it. As a GC, I would have my own liability ins company in on it all from the beginning.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
By "them" i assume you mean the floor guys insurance company? There claims adjuster is due out in the morning. Will he work up an estimate for repairs or expect me to give him that.....will he require other bids? I of course can ask him these things but appreciate any advice that keeps me from going in blind. I am listed as the general on this job but its T&M and the homeowner has been paying subs directly. I've had my license for a year only and am new at this madness.
Ouch!This sort of thing is a primary reason for that money to run through your books and be charging a markup on it. you will have a hard time finding adequate compensation for all your grief, time, headache, and heartache by the time this is all finished.I did mean the subcontractor's insurance comp[any.Do not settle for what the adjuster offers up front. Think about it this way - If I hired you to instal a floor at my house, would you be comfortable with ME deciding how much to pay for the job? No - you would need to know what YOUR costs are to do it, and be paid accordingly. You will be working for the HO on this repair. But the subcontractor's insurance company will be paying the bills. The checks will be cut to be payable to you and the HO more than likely.Yopu are in a difficult situation, needing to satisfy the HO, but to get paid by an ins co that will attempt to underpay and cut their losses. That is why your ins co should be in on this from the git-go. They are there to protedct your interests, as is your lawyer, if you retain one.
The HO is out to protect his interests as is his ins co.The subcontractor's ins co is out to protect their intrests. You need to work closely with those who are out to protect YOUR intrests. Do not sign anything that releases anybody until such time as the HOs are fully satisfied. You need to make your best effort to make all work together to expeditite this ASAP.In some states, you will not be able to get a deposit up front, but you should have a commitment and payment schedule. Odds are that you will not be required to get other bids, given your current structured arrangement, but this company making payments will analyse your bills line by line, so keep full documentation in your records to back up every charge you make
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
>> As a GC, I would have my own liability ins company in on it all from the beginning.
>>That is why your ins co should be in on this from the git-go. They are there to protedct your interests, as is your lawyer, if you retain one.
You must have a different insurance picture than I do. In this situation I would not involve my carrier unless absolutely necessary. Making a claim would expose me to rate increases and possible cancellation or non-renewal. They do not exist to protect my interests, they exist to minimize their own losses and maximize profits. I would attempt to get satisfaction from the sub's insurer directly, probably with some assistance from my lawyer. The blame is 100% on the sub, and that's where I would leave it.
Now, the OP has disclosed that he is not actually the one who hired the floor sanders. If this were my job and that were the case, my insurer would be able to disclaim responsibility immediately. The OP's insurer is probably in the same position. If there is a written contract between the floor guy and the OP then that may vary, but if the OP simply brought the floor guy to the job on a verbal deal with the homeowner paying, the OP is probably mostly or completely out of the loop on this one... the owner is actually the "GC".
Sounds like he's meeting the adjuster this morning. We'll probably find out a lot more soon.
Wow, Prospero just ATE the entire message I typed up. How convenient...
I was gonna say, it strikes me that by calling in your own insurer you are exposing yourself to premium increases, non-renewal, and/or cancellation, followed by increased difficulty getting a new policy to stay in business. I would be looking to the floor guy's insurer for complete satisfaction, probably with the help of my lawyer. The blame appears to be 100% clearly on that sub.
The OP has stated now that the HO was paying the sub directly. That makes me question whether or not the OP has any legal involvement in this at all. Does he have a written contract with the sub? Or did he just verbally refer him to the job as a sub of the HO? Does he have a written contract with the HO to bring subs or supervise them? I am pretty sure that my carrier would deny any responsibility at all, if there was no actual subcontract relationship. The OP may feel guilty as h#ll about this but he may have no actual liability. I'd lay odds that the HO wanted to pay directly to avoid a GC markup and therefore has bought himself a problem, too, while the OP has been supervising for free.
Maybe not EVERY good deed goes unpunished. I expect the OP will be back later today to fill us in.
my insurance guy told me i have no liability in this and didnt even want to send anyone out to have a look. Perhaps i should find a lawyer to confirm this. I do not have a contract with the floor guys and the deposit was paid to them with a HO check.
Did you recommend the floor guys?
A local contractor, and a friend of mine, was GC on a high end custom home several years ago and the HO insisted on a Dri-vit exterior finish. My friend cautioned them against it as there'd been some problems and major claims on Dri-vit installs in the area and even in that neighborhood.
The HO went ahead and contracted an installer from out of state on their own and there was major failure within 2 years.
Unfortunately, my friend neglected to get a signed waiver from the HO and since the installer had gone out of business, he ended up being on the hook for the repairs and siding replacement....
Of course, his liability insurance carrier bailed on him.
Your insurance Agent may be your friend, but, believe me, your Underwriter is NOT!
My friend is still building, but as an employee for another custom builder....and paying off a big claim.
If I were you, I would snuggle up to a good attorney....might be money well spent in the long run.
As GC, in most states, you're the epicenter of culpability if this goes South on you.
Edited 12/11/2006 12:13 pm by Notchman
How did your friend get caught up in this if the owner contracted directly for the stucco?
He got caught up simply because he was the G/C of record on the Certificate of Occupancy and when the claim circumstances came about two years after the fact and the stucco guys were gone, he was the one left standing.
His own attorney and the Oregon Contractor's board both told him his undoing was not having a written waver by the HO.
It's a trajedy because he's one of the finest builders I know around here; first class worksmanship, attention to detail and a quiet and honest guy. (Meanwhile, some of the hacks seem to get away with murder...or close to it).
Probably another case where being a good builder/craftsman over being a good businessman was his undoing.
Check with your lawyer if you need to, but your insurance company probably has it right. You're a bystander in this one and the issue is between the HO and the floor guys.
You should be evaluating the damage and working up your bid to fix it.
You probably also want to put these floor guys on your "Do Not Use.......EVER!!" list. - lol
You need to get a definitive opinion from the fire marshall as to the cause that makes it clear that the subs negligence was the cause. Or get your insuance company to hire a fire investigator to provide such an opinion.
There you go. Sounds good so far.now you still have a job of managing customers expectations and getting them back in their home
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
so the floor clowns insurance guy was here this morning and said hes not so sure his guys are at fault. He wants to blame the osmo polywax product. it may be "more volatile then a normal finish" he says. I mentioned that after reading posts here that i found that this was a common occurance with all kinds of finishes. He chose not to understand my argument. "we'll be in touch" he said with a wink (no shi#!) as he walked out the door. slimeball.
He's just dipping and bobbing - nothing a good uppercut to the jaw won't fix
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I don't guess prospewro ate this one, since I just replied to it...;)Really, if I lived in that much fear of my own insurance company, I would go self-insured or look for another option. There is a reason for having the policy, would you not agree? Yes save it for the big ones, but how bigh does it need to get? Burn down Windsor Palace?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
>>Really, if I lived in that much fear of my own insurance company, I would go self-insured or look for another option. There is a reason for having the policy, would you not agree? Yes save it for the big ones, but how bigh does it need to get? Burn down Windsor Palace?
Honestly, I would notify my insurer if I had either (a) an obvious situation where I was at fault, or (b) was served with a lawsuit or claim for binding arbitration. There is no option for going self insured in Washington, and no way to be legally in business without insurance. Savvy clients know that they do not even have to pay you if you are uninsured.
In the OP's situation my first call would be to my lawyer. If he says notify the insurer, then I would do that. A claim, right or not, could either cancel me or put my premiums so high I would effectively be out of business. I think this one's between the HO and floor guy anyway.
It's not "living in fear of the insurance companies"; it's knowing that, with all the exclusions in the policies that they have an immense amount of wiggle room....very little is covered if you read the fine print......I know of no Contractor's liab. policy that will cover any kind of mold claim.
David is absolutely right; liability insurance is little more than a requirement for licensing and a single claim, honored or not, is cause for cancelation.
I've only been licensed here for 15 years and never had a claim. but have been dumped (non-renewed) twice simply because I either had too many subcontractors, too many employees or my volume of new construction (custom homes) was too high (maximum two in one year....big deal).
In the past 5 years, my annual premiums have increased over 800%....and I'm certainly not alone.
The Contractor's Liability Insurance issue for the small operator has become little more than an extra licensing fee for no more good that it does, or protection it provides.
And even if I could legally self-insure myself, if I had that much cash to put in trust, I'd just back off and fulfill my lust for building by doing HFH projects or something.
A standard Homeowners policy is much more likely to cover damages as described in the OP, if it were the fault of the OP.
One thing common to all the Contractor Liab. policies I've had, currently have and that are held by others, is that ALL subs, when submitting their proof of insurance to a G/C must list the G/C as an additional insured.....WTF is that about?! And failure to present those documents at my annual Ins. audit....cause for cancelation.
It's gotten to the point that I've retracted my operation to just me and one employee, I've restricted my work to renovations, remodels and additions and I use no subs, period. (pays better and I get more sleep).
I've got a ton of work ahead of me working on vacation homes on a boat-access only lake where no one screws with me and this next year, my Ins. premiums will drop back to (sorta) within reason.
I figure insurance at about 2.5% of gross. What range are you in?
Mine got closer to 5% in 2005....it's about 2% now....and should drop a bit in 2007.
"The Contractor's Liability Insurance issue for the small operator has become little more than an extra licensing fee for no more good that it does, or protection it provides."The way you guys describe it out there, it sounds less like licensing and more like legalized extortion/protection rackets
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
From what I read, it's not just a regional thing, although there may be some pockets of sanity.
N.W. Oregon, about 4%, Different companies have dropped me 3 times in the last 5 yrs. (Absolutely no claims against me ever for anything).
Latest caper was wanting to almost double my premiums because I installed windows and doors on a job!!
Yeah, that windows and doors thing cracks me up every time I have to apply for a new Ins. carrier! Grrrr!
By the time the pile of applications is winnowed down to the handful that will accept you, you're just premium shopping.
Makes you wonder just what the heck they think happens when buildings get built, some angel appears from nowhere and installs those items?
"...legalized extortion/protection rackets..."
No lie!
I don't think we know enough about this situation to make the assumpotions you do. You are probably right, given what we have read, but past experience teaches us that rarely is all the information out in the first couple of posts.For something this big, you are darn right I would be notifying my insurance. The call might be along the lines of, "I don't think this is anything that will directly impact me but here's the scenario - when do I make an official report on this..."
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
You may want to retain a public adjuster or even a lawyer to negotiate with the subs' insurer. Typically, the insurance companies (yours, the subs and maybe the homeowners) will get together, compare estimates and agree on a price for the structure, contents, loss of use, etc. Problems may crop up with the scope of coverage, where the HO policy may include more ( such as contents or loss of use) than the builder's risk or general liability policies, which may be limited to bricks and mortar. There are firms that devote a significant amount of their business to providing estimates to insurers after fire or other losses. They typically use estimating programs to come up with a number to repair or replace what was damaged. Their estimates may vary (a lot). In some locations, keep in mind that the whole structure may have to become compliant with new codes, which can add to the costs.
At the end of the process, the homeowner is entitled to be made whole and your job is to make sure you don't have to pay any of it.
These guys have been a nightmare for both myself and especially the homeowner who now gets to spend Christmas in a hotel instead of in his finished remodel. Any advice as to dealing with subs insurance companies?
Ugh, I just had an awful thought--many (too many) insurance policies do not cover water damage that is "incidental." Now, there's a "work around" in almost no insurance company will "tolerate" mold, so flooding can incur a clean-up, jsut not for the "correct" reason why.
As to the "how to," that gets complicated quick. What you may need is a big giant sit-down with all the insurance people, HO's, yours, flooring clowns', etc. Your's because it can be good for them to be there to say, "Nope, he ain't got a dog in this hunt"--but also because they might have done this before, too. May be you just find a competent floor guy (which might take a three-way arm wrestle to sort out), and he does the work for you, same as the original bunch, and you get paid by [insert name/s selected by arm-'rassling].
Might wind up the floor guys can only "afford" their screw up, and the HO insurance has to kick in for water clean up (or for housing expense). Could be all sorts of ways--insurance work is weird that way sometimes.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Jpeaton
I worked in a shop down in TX that didnt have dust collection. One time we had a sanding disk in the table saw to S4S some wood, all the sanding dust would just drop to the bottom of the inclosed base table saw. We were forcing this through to get the job done which expedited the whole senerio.
On this particular time when we were cleaning up we pulled the sawdust out from under the inclosed table saw and found a smouldering pile!
The sanding disk, which is no different then a drum sander, caused the sawdust (by way of friction) to heat up enough to cause it to ignite!
I'm sure this is what Splinty was refering to with her late husband Ian's work with floor sanding. Couple that with the fresh finish and you had a disaster waiting to happen.
I'd go after the floor guys for this.
Doug
My floor finisher, the bag on his drum sander says in big red letters, "Do not leave bag full--risk of fire".
My floor sander bags go further than that: "Empty bags after each use-avoid the risk of spontaneous combustion" also in big red letters
Ten or twelve years ago, we had the floor finishers redo a bad job in a new house. they finished on a Sunday and left he bags of dust just outside the door under the eaves.
My partner and I both went in to work that day.
Mid-afternoon, we smelled smoke, searched and searched until I saw wisps of smoke rising into the soffit from the bags.
So we caught that one and learned a big lesson. We might have lost the house.
Now floor finishers on my job take the dust away with them every day without fail.
Ron
Jason, this stuff needs to be printed and shown to any adjuster that comes, my god, these guys were idiots. They either got lazy on this job or have been lucky forever.
I teach a neighbor boy on the ins and outs of woodworking -- last step of our end table is to finish -- we both read the warning on the cans and I explain to him the hazards of spontaneous combustion. I make a big deal of taking the rags out to a joint bucket filled with water. Next morning, smell the fruits or our labor - poly drying - my wife calls me at work saying the shop is full of smoke. We left one rag on a shaper table -- not only did it burn the rag but it burned my palm sander --
Despite us doing what we should of done - we did not double check
No major damage - but is it a lesson -- you would think one tee shirt could not make that much of a mess
Any resolution to your nightmare yet?
Hope it's going your way.
This vacuum caught of fire after vacuuming oil based poly dust from the 180 screen sanding while refinishing a hardwood floor. Glad it was in the back of my truck and not in the house.
The hazard is finishes derived from linseed oil. The spontaneous combustion of rags soaked with linseed oil is a fairly well-known hazard, but I suppose few would think that sawdust might be similarly hazardous, just because it received a linseed oil finish some years prior.