Hello All,
I had a 2-story house built in 2004. It was spec’d to have TJI 11 7/8″ joists w/ 3/4″ plywd glue & screw (densgold) @ 16″o.c. Span is 15′-6″ on 11 7/8″. No standing water was on the floor for longer (so I was told) than a week. I unfortunately found, on a visit to the site after the frame & trusses were up, LP joists 11 7/8″. Per design I should have a floor that could easily support anything I place up there & then some… even on the lowest end of the chart from LP…. tight as a drum… 1/4″ of deflection or less. Beams & headers are oversized underneath the assembly… no sag or movement in these members are measureable… no foundation movement is present….
Here is the problem: The house is 2 1/2 years old now and it sounds like its 70 years old. When my wife gets up in the early AM her footsteps wake me up with the sound of snap crackle POP!! (she’s 115 lbs, I’m 237) all the way accross the floor diaphragm all day long… no matter whom walks on it… it POPS!! I work from home and my office is adjacent to this assembly on the first floor. All year round, especially in the summer months, as the house heats up from morning to mid day I hear about 200 or more pops and the same as it hits nightfall. This is an everyday occurance and on some days very un-nerving. I have called in the LP rep and they say nothing to help me fix the problem. TJI would have if I had them in my home. The floor was glued and I check that prior to cover-up and as far as I know their was no roll-off of the glue from the joist as there was almost no residual glue spotting on the first floor plywood or slag onto the webs of the joists. Also no ducting goes through the joists & holes are only 3″ max and at mid dimension of the web for plumbing (Pex & 2 1/2″ lines).
Not really wanting to rip up the carpeting off the entire second floor, removing plywood & joists…. has anyone any pearls of wisdom to part on to me that may assist me in resolving this nagging problem? Thank you in advance!!
Replies
Had a noisy tji floor once and it was all in the hangers at a flush beam. A few screws and some blobs of subfloor adhesive fixed it up.
Hope it helps Rik
Nope! The joists are direct bearing on beamline & top plate.
I've heard that the top cord of the LP joists separate as time goes by.. I wonder if that's the issue? Don't know... still fishing?!? Thanks for the suggestion.. any others?
You sure it's not her ankles?
Interesting..Nope! Not her ankles, toes, knees or hips. thanks though.
LOL..welcome to BT, land of quick wit and half baked schemes of world order.
We can be serious, as I am about to be..the TJ web is not glued well in the dado in the upper and lower members, I'd have to be there to tell ya how to fix the squeak(s), but a ribbon of glue and a few well placed nails might could begin to attack it.
"Humor... a difficult concept."
-Mr. Spock
J/K... yes tried the snap-off head screw technique... waste of time... squeeks still there. The pops occur along the whole plane 54'-0" long x 15'-6" wide. I wish it was an isolated incident, then I can really get on it but that size of an area... I call no joy.
The joists as they were described to me were the next series up from the base model of 11 7/8"... to quote the contractor...... hmmmmmm
Thanks for the input!! Very much appreciated!! Anymore?!?
You'l fit right in.
Looks like there are currently 5 series of L-P I joists. If you have the second then they are 2-1/2" flange. The top two series have 3-1/2" flange and believe me it makes a big difference. I didn't bother to download the span tables, but that's the next thing I would do.
As far as getting L-P to admit blame over the phone, forget it. You need to contact the builder and the supplier of the joists first, and have them bring out the L-P rep. It may not be their problem but they should come and find out. It's futile calling the 1-800 number talking about popping noises to some guy who wants to get you off the phone.
Yes... I agree. He just wanted to brush the issue under the carpet (pardon the pun) but how do I get them involved after 2 1/2 almost three years down the line from completion of construction? This is where I get foggy.... how to approach such a matter???
If the builder won't handle this as a warranty issue, or at least an investigation, then you probably need to find the L-P rep in your area and get him on the phone. Ask him if he wants to come check out the issue or if he wants your lawyer to call him.
Wanted to avoid that part... the 'L' word. Warrantee period is over. Will the contractor's ins. policy cover this at this late date under a structural defect or due to product failure?
Leet me tell you what I think is causing some of the stink.start with my prejudice against LP. I think they have a crooked corporate structure and are VERY practised in avoidance, and they have laid a lot of poor quality deficient product on the marketplace over the past 20-30 years. A LOT!Had to get that discalimer out of the way first.this could be a LP manufacturing defect, but I don't know how you would prove it.But my instinct is leading me to another point -
You mention that the specs on the plans were for TJI. It is common for notes to say "...or equivalent" which would allow the builder to use the LP product, but if they substituted without your knowledge and approval, there may be basis for a lawyer to pursue the builder. May be...But this springs another issue to mind. If they substituted brand, they may also have been the kind of outfit that felt free to substitue grade level on you. Maybe where a 235 was called for they used a 135 instead in the same height dimension. The design of these trusses varies with material, size of chords, thickness of web, as well aas height.so your homework is to find out from plans specificly WHAT TJI was specified and WHICH LP trussjoist was used and if they are equivalent in the books
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Very good points Piffin.
To be honest with all parties... I drew the plans and built the house in the next State over.... hired, I thought, a quality contractor keeping track of the details and all. I specify TJI ONLY.. as I always do. I was told the lumberyard couldn't get TJI but their supplier was LPI and that's what he could get. After staying a few days in town... I found out the plant for TJI was not a mile from the lumberyard.... in a word... very disappointing.... could have picked up a lift on the way out to the jobsite.(haha) I think the contractor had our home & a 4000 sq. ft. going at the same time so he was being pulled in a few directions... although I can't manage him from 360 miles away except to say... its in the plans and these documents were more complete than most want these days... Anyway.... anymore thoughts from anyone? Thank you very much... this is good!!
What were the weather conditions when the sub-floor was glued and screwed down? How dry was the framing? How cold was it? How long was the glue exposed before sheets were laid down?
I'm a big fan of screws, but when lumber shrinks it doesn't matter if your sheet goods are screwed or nailed, you can still have problems. If the adhesive failed, you could have a slight movement of sheathing all over the place.
"What were the weather conditions when the sub-floor was glued and screwed down? How dry was the framing? How cold was it? How long was the glue exposed before sheets were laid down?"
aside from the last point, are we to lay sub floors only on the best of days, when all is dry, and have the roof on before the next rain fall hits.
my point is good construction adheasive is meant to be applied in all kinds of weather ( "wet and frozen" lumber.) otherwise 90% of the houses here in BC would be "popping". perhaps wrong glue, but it sounds like perhaps problem with joists is more likely.
Thanks for your reply!
If memory serves construction started in Feb and the second floor started to go up in march of 2004. In that year of our region of the country weather was highly inclimental. Rain, drizzle, cold & we even had freezes. It is possible that the joists were wet a bit before sub went down. I love screwing floors too... ringshank has never really been my favorite and the fastening of the sub is only as good as the glue behind it.... screws are your best insurance for adhesion. I have heard experiences where the glue "tootsie rolls" and rolls off the joist as sub goes down.... it does come down to temperature & precipitation. As stated before I actually saw hardly any glue on the first floor plywd... so I have to assume that the glue is there. Also the screws can glance off the web of the joist creating a squeek bu these are not squeeks.... definately pops.
I called the contractor one day as they were placing second floor walls up and they had ice on the second floor. Then it rained the next day and cleared that up. As per se... I can not tell you exactly how long the structure was exposed to the elements. To explain my personal viewing of the site... I went in on a Saturday(Feb) and the first floor walls were up and then in April after taxes... remember that day and the trusses were up and sheathed. We were told that settling would occur and that 'noises' would occur during that time. If I could only record the noises in the living room/dining area... it sounds like a symphony of pops!!
Where I work the weather is wet 6-8mths of the year and material is just going to get wet.. fact of life here. Glue works best in Arizona... hahahaha
So our dreamhome is talking and the answer could be equivalent to about, what, 60% of the cost of construction.... might as well go rent a D-9 and a 40yarder and get it pushed off and start anew... dissapointing... and I'm in the industry!!
All your comments and questions are very sound and we thank you for your assistance.... any others... any suggestions... sounds like to me more and more that the carpets coming up and the ceiling is coming down.
The builder's written warranty, if any, may or may not hold up if there is a structural defect. As far as I know, that's governed by state law. At least it is here...
If you are unwilling to be firm and insistent on this, nothing will happen.
TRIMSPA BABY!!!Welcome to Breaktime
Home of
The Aristocrats
That is just rife with complications....
Whos my Daddy et al..
There are different series' of 11-7/8" I joists. Which ones did they use?