I have a question about kitchen flooring. Do you do the floor before or after the cabinets are installed?
I do the floor first because it looks better to me. If I’m using an expensive flooring I bring the flooring a couple of inches past the toe kick and fur the rest.
This compact detatched accessory dwelling has an efficient layout with a vaulted ceiling that enhances the sense of space.
"I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.
Replies
It depends... are you a flooring installer ao a cabinet installer? When I'm doing the cabinets, I want to be there before the finished floor goes down. Why? If I slip with a cabinet or drop a screwdriver, I don't have to buy a new floor. When I'm setting ceramic or laying hardwood, I want to get there before the cabinets. I agree, the job does look better if you can run the flooring under the cabinets. But here's a comprimise... Have the cabinet installer leave the finished toe kicks off the cabinets until the finished floor is down. This way the floor can be run uo tight to the cabinets without having to be perfect and then the toe kicks can be applied over top, just as if the whole cabinet intallation had gone over. This usually keeps the cabinet and flooring guy happy.
On the last big kitchen floor i tiled, the cabinet maker came and installed only his kick bases for the cabinets to sit on, then we tiled, then he finished the job. Worked well except he dropped a hammer and chipped a tile. Oh well, it was only a small repair. As our motto goes, Thank God it's tile, hate to have to replace the lino!
Very wise response. I do both the floor and the cabinets myself so I'm wondering what other people do when given a choice. I kinda have a dissagreement with a fellow worker and am looking for a consensous.
If vinyl, floor first.
If hardwood/tile, cabinets first, but put a piece of vinyl on the floor of the sink cabinet and under the dishwasher, and arrange it so the back end of the vinyl is slightly raised (1/4" is ok) or just bend the back and sides of the vinyl up a bit. This way if a leak develops, the owner will see it before the joists dry-rot away.
BruceM
Do the cabinets first.......you or your client will thank you years down the road when you/they want to replace "that ungly floor."
Determine the thickness of the flooring material to be used and raise your cabinets that height. Run the flooring up to the units and finish with a "well installed" toe kick and/or trim.
The only advantage to laying the floor first is "time saved" for the installer. Running flooring material from wall to wall is easy if you know somebody is going to cover it with something.
Why should you worry if the flooring installer has to come back to replace a torn or broken area of flooring? Oh, that's you! I rest my case.
That's the way I look at it too. Cabinets first then flooring, but on ocassion it's done the other way around.
Ken Fisher
Hardwood Flooring Installation
Naples/Bonita Springs, Florida
View Image
Are you really thinking that you can find a consensus on any construction subject? My opinion, whith only three installations, but years of maintenance and repair, is put the floor first, and go all the way wall to wall. I could go into great detail about a slow leak that whent undiscovered because the tile kept the water under the dishwasher and cabinets. Also makes it much easier to move or replace cabinets with smaller units without having to replace flooring too. A long lasting tile floor could pretty easily outlast some other features in a house. And matching years later is not likely going to work very well. Just my thoughts, it's your job, do what you want.
Dan
I went through this recently, and am convinced that more people disagree about this than disagree about attic venting.
The only intelligent reason I've heard is that if the dishwasher leaks, the water should run out into the middle of the room if the floor is down first. While this may or may not be true (Depending on whether or not your floor slopes that way) It's the only one that makes sense.
Other than that, I think it's just personal preference.
I'm not completely worthless. I can be used as a bad example.
"Must be a regional thing."
IMHO, it all depends on the individual situation. If I've got $60,000 worth of furniture-grade cabinets installed before the flooring is laid, I wake up in a sweat thinking about runaway 150 lb drum sanders or that notched trowel stuck in the tile man's back pocket while he fits that last piece of limestone. ("Hey, wasn't ME!)
Having said that, in reality on most of my jobs, we do install the cabinets before the finished floor, since, in the case of hardwood, I will leave the sanding and finishing of the floors until one of the last things (right before the final painting). That way, most of the accidents (dropped chisels, mud caked work boots, etc.) have already happened and we can sand them off. In the case of tile or stone, we will sometimes install plywood to the thickness of the finish floor in the footprint area of the cabinets and let the tile guy make his mess before we set the cabinets. On the other hand, if the grout lines don't run perfectly parallel with the toe-kicks.................
Like I said, it all depends on the situation. Does that help to clarify things?
I have limited experience with this but no problems. We installed plywood bases for the base cabinets and island then installed cement board and tile. We tiled up to the bases and everywhere else (ie under the appliances.) The advantages were that we knew exactly where the cabinets would be, we didn't have to worry about damaging the cabinets, the finish toekick board covered the rough edge of the tile and the cabinet installer had something to attach the cabinets to.
If you install the tile first how do you anchor the island cabinets?
As I think I mentioned in my earlier response, I put a solid in-fill of plywood to the thickness of the finished floor (tile in your case) everywhere there are base cabinets, including the island. Maybe this is unneccessary, but it makes me feel better. As someone mentioned in an earlier post, dishwasher leaks or over-enthusiastic mopping can lead to water problems under the cabinets. Before setting the finished toekick, I fill the joint between the finished floor edge and my plywood fill-in with polyurethane caulk and also caulk the bottom of the toekick after installation to lessen the possiblity of this happening.
Did you raise the cabinets to account for the thickness of the tile floor?
I drill the ceramic and put 2x4 down with screws. Then fasten the cabinets to the 2 bys.....
Floor first then I put the cardboard boxes the cabinets came in to cover the floor........
if you are on a schedule,the whole job needs to be analyzed, maybe a stone counter tops needs______ much time to be fabricated, in go the cabinets, right after the drywall gets sanded, .......
no turn left unstoned
floor. Jeff She's exotic ,but not foreign, like an old Cadillac......she's a knockout!
I'm with the floor first group.
The chance of banging an expensive box with a piece of flooring is too great.
Cutting boards to fit an odd sized base cabinet or octogonal island is a pain.
If the floor finisher is using an edger without a good dust collection system then the sanding dust ends up all over the cabinet doors.
Hard to fasten boards under a toe kick.
Edging under toe kicks is a pain.
Floor. Most of what I design has at least one curved wall and often more. The cabinets fit the tangents and cutting tile to that angle is a pain, plus you have to keep the mud and grout off the nice finishes. I think it'd be just as easy to ding a cabinet with a trowel as dinging a tile with a cabinet tool. My cabinet installers are generous in their use of moving pads beneath their tools on the floor.
It sounds as if most of the responders don't do any type of custom floor installations. I suppose you put the expensive border against the wall under the cabinets?
Johnny On The Beach...........
Whenever I do borders around the cabinets the kitchen designer comes in and together we snap two lines on my paper. One line,(orange) marks the outline of the box. The other line, (blue) marks the outline of the toe kick. We then move a piece of border around until the owner/ builder/ architect/ designer decides where they want it.
Either way, cabs after floor.
Sounds like you've answered the original question.......should the floor go down so the cabinets can go on top? That's what the young man wanted to know. Who would put flooring under the cabinets? Someone that doesn't install cabinets.Johnny On The Beach...........
Dude,
Do it however you want...If you do any of it.
I'm a floor mechanic and finisher. My floor builds in new construction are pretty high end, inlays, patterns, mixed species, yada, yada, yada. "Wood-Mode" are the cabinets of choice on most jobs. The install crew coming in behind me are first class, they've never so much as scratched one of my floors. The CKD/Wood-Mode dealer will actually wait until I get the floors in and the finish cures until he sends his install guys out.
There ya go, a concensus. Floor guy and high end CKD agree: floors first.
It amazes me how hard some old habits die.
This method (floors after cabinets) was started by the same type of people who inspired the "Are you gonna use them screws you dropped thread.
Tight wads.
Save 30-40 # of flooring! oooh $$$$$
The flooring installer is going to charge at least the cost savings in # ft. to make up for the MAJOR pain in the assss!
I used to work with a guy who would go to any length to save any thing. He is a great guy and a great carp. but I would love to have the wages he wasted over the years.
He once spent 45 min. picking the old roofing nails out of the gutters on a tear-off so he could re-use them. While every on else was using pneumatics. He routine ly made the helpers pull all the nails out of every usable scrap of lumber and stack it, only for a lot of it to be thrown out at the end of the job.
If he needed 24 studs he never ordered more than 24. the lumber yard would drive out to his jobs 2-3 times a week with small orders. He acted like sending back leftovers was a crime.
I guess my point is I have seen a lot of false economy in this business. Peole stepping over a buck to pick up a penny.
My job is hard enough without having to do things the hard way just to give the illusion of saving some one some money.
Blowing off steam....
Mr TDo not try this at home!
I am a trained professional!
"T"
I don't think we have ever disagreed on a subject. Great minds must think alike.
How 'bout you come on down (or up), (or over) to the West. Pa. area and we'll help good 'ol Jeff J Buck get his glue down floor project finished while his back heals up?
One vote for floor first.cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
Yo, Adrian. And you're a cabinet maker, right? So why do you favor it that way?
Whatever you do, please make sure the cabinets will all be at the same level as finish floor when done. My "L" kitchen, previous owners put flooring under just one leg. The corner has ductwork in the wall, so that's a 2' x 2' square bump out, no counter space. The other leg (the one with a dishwasher on its last legs) has cabinets & counter about 3/4" lower. I'm not looking forward to replacing the dishwasher - I keep hoping it'll hold out until a planned remodel late this year/next year.
BTW, I'd do floors first. Anytime I've seen where it's been furred out beyond/behind finish floor(unlike my house), I've never had it flush enough to prevent problems moving appliances, etc.If everything seems to be going well, you've obviously overlooked something.
I have done it both ways over many years, and never thought there was a right or wrong. Now, I'm faced with tearing up an old floor under the cabinets while the cabinets remain. Any slick ideas on how to cut the floor under the toe kick?
What kind of flooring are you removing?
I'm removing 2 1/4" oak strip flooring and replacing it with wide plank hickory. From some of the suggestions so far, it sounds as if cabinets first is the way to go to avoid this years down the road.
DLJEFFERSON,
Any relation to Thomas?....anywhooo....how to remove the floor when you want the cabinets to remain?
Attach one end of a heavy line or cable to the cabinets. Attach the other end to the ceiling rafters above. Go into the basement or crawl space. Using a sawzall with a long blade cut the ends of the floor joists off. This will effectively remove the floor and leave the cabinets.
Sorry........... thought this subject was getting a little stale.
Great Idea Man!!!
That will save me soooo much time!!!
ROTFLMHWAO!!
I love this place!
TDo not try this at home!
I am a trained professional!
"T"
Are you serious? Cutting the joists off is time consuming!! And you use a heck of a lot of blades!!
I'm cynical today. A ground hog has dens all over the place, next to the house, in the beds, under the sex shop, everywhere. I spent all night filling the holes up with a hose and standing by with a 12 guage. Neighbors think it's hilarious.
Thanks for all the input. I'm going to continue to do the floors first .
"people stepping over a buck to pick up a penny"-- that is a riot or maybe its just friday night and I've been sunburned in the a.m. and rained on in the p.m. all week........no that is a riot, thanks for the laugh.
Johnny.....I install floors...I install cab's......I've installed way more cab's than I have floors.......I install the floor first.
The odd piece of flooring can be left out in back.......base cabs can be easily shimmed and screwed to the back wall. If the floor is ceramic over cement board.......easier to install first than hope someone remembers to shim everything up so the dishwasher still fits. Same with the recessed fridge........stove top with height requirement for vent hood.....etc.
Cab's that are to be saved while the floor redone would simply be unscrewed...set in the dining room.....while the floor properly replaced...then cab's reset. No big deal, just doing things right. Jeff She's exotic ,but not foreign, like an old Cadillac......she's a knockout!
Jeff.......you gotta help me here. I do many more custom remodels than any other type of building and am always faced with "saving" what's already in place, that includes kitchen/bathroom cabinets and 'built-ins' in some houses. Some people just like the old style cabinets and don't want those pieces touched.
Perhaps there's a difference out here on the left coast, but I can't remember re-doing a floor that was under a cabinet or built-in. And, I suppose that has influenced my construction practices of cab's first, then floors. I am, however, interested in your perspective of 'cabs................ unscrewed, set in dining room, floor replaced, then cabs reset.' Many times, I have wished I could remove a cabinet just to get it out of the way but have not figured a way to move a ten foot long base cabinet with a tile countertop and keep it intact. There's got to be a way to handle this situation...................can you help?Johnny On The Beach...........
Not sure what I'd do with the tile counter top.......the cabs are easy.....relatively speaking! Just go in reverse. Usually...againg I say.....usually not glued......just screwed.
For the counter top......maybe look at from underneath.......find a seam......pop those tiles.......bust it loose......then replace the damaged tiled after it's all said and done?
Who knows.........I've never had to save an unsavable counter top......or have just told the customer......gotta buy new...Buy hey...Al least we're saving the cab's. I did sub a tile floor where the cab's stayed....but were rearranged.......the corian top was simply site cut with a straight edge....and shoved back that 1/8th inch when the corian guy came to fix/fill. Worked very well.
As to cutting a floor inplace......how about a toe-kick saw? Kinda like a jamb saw...but turned on edge. Tool Crib has them......might be on the Amazon site.
What kinda floor has to come out? Wood...just cut away. Tile...send the helper down with a face shield and chisel....if that don't work....bigger helper with bigger hammer! Then toe-kick saw the sub floor out.......of rent a big tile popper machine.
I still vote for counter top replacement. But...where there's a will there's a way! Maybe loosen the whole damn thing......then use a whole lotta roller supports...all the way to the dining room! Stranger things have been done. Jeff She's exotic ,but not foreign, like an old Cadillac......she's a knockout!
Replace a dishwasher in a kitchen where the flooring was installed AFTERWARD, then you tell me.
Floor first!
Ted W.
A wise man once said no more than required by law.
i installed my flooring after the cabs what I did was built up the area under the DW and made allowances for the toe kick and countertop at 36". Just adjust for it not biggie. Since its my own house Im gonna take the DW out and tile under it and replace it.....No biggie Darkworksite4: When the job is to small for everyone else, Its just about right for me"
no Johnny....you just buy a tape measure. Cab's pretty much come out from the walls at a predetermined distance...so it's all pretty easy to figure. Jeff She's exotic ,but not foreign, like an old Cadillac......she's a knockout!
The nice young man at Home Depot told me that professionals alway put the cabinets in first. This makes it impossible for any one to steal your appliances once the floor is laid.
You guys are professionals aren't you?
I thought so.
Next question!
TI'm not the ring-leader of this circus.
I'm just one of the clowns!
First of all, when the option is present, I ALWAYS choose to have the hardwood installed first, TO THE WALLS. This presents a better base for the cabinet installation, eliminates the problem (as previously observed) of dishwashers that suddenly fail to be removable after the hardwood floor has been installed afterwards, and also pre-plans for future remodels. Additionally, it is faster (and faster means cheaper) for the hardwood installers not to have to cut around all the cabs, and saves having to fuss around with installing toe-kicks afterward, or shimming the cabs up to the assumed height of the hardwood.
Secondly, when I have the hardwood installed first, I schedule the finishing after cabinet installation, painting, etc. That way I don't have to worry about little nicks, etc. For the few times that I am working over a finished floor, I do a two-step floor protection pricess that allows me to do a considerabl;e amount of work without damaging the hardwood or finish. I first apply a layer of red-rosin paper (taped to itself, but never to the hardwood), then lay down 1/8" masonite, again taping all seams (to prevent dust and debris infiltration).
We should always be careful to consider that we may have to take precautions to protect all the sufraces that we are working on, over, etc. A little prudence in this department pays many times its cost.
I vote floor first.In addition to all the other reasons posted,when it's time to re-model the area,no ugly patching.
Over the years I have had a gallon of milk spill and run under the cabinets, smelled for months. Was unable to remove the dishwasher for repair, had to remove countertop on that one. And had a undetected water leak that ruined the cabinets, that one cost the insurance company 25K. These three things and more could of been avoided had the flooring run under the cabinets. So when the new kitchen went in..... Thats Right! The tile went in first.
Edited 7/6/2002 4:36:08 PM ET by bigdog
So, does cabinet over/after floor work with rougher-textured materials like slate?
DonH
Oh, cripes! The CABINETS FIRST! For all the reasons mentioned before and common sense. As a homeowner I would not want to pay for any flooring that would just get covered up, and I will most certainly replace the flooring before my cabinets (unless I win the lottery), all the rough edges around the bases get covered by quarter round, and it's easier for the tradesmen as they explained. The only exception is the center island we have - that was put down after the floor was laid.
As for making it "impossible to steal the appliances"...are you for real? The flooring should extend underneath the appliances - it should be possible to slide them out for maintainance, cleaning and replacement. If they are built-ins, the issue wouldn't matter anyway.
I love how everyone sees issues from only their perspective. It's entirely situational. Sometimes there's more than one right answer...
>As a homeowner I would not want to pay for any flooring that would just get covered up
If the floor is tile, this could easily be penny-wise and pound-foolish. You'd rather pay a tile setter to scribe and cut tiles than to lay them whole so they extend under a cabinet? Not me. And if the cabinets follow a curve or non-right angle, that could be plenty of cuts.
>I will most certainly replace the flooring before my cabinets
If you put down cheap vinyl, probably. But if it's a nice tile or granite or limestone, not so likely.