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Flooring Problem, Suggestions?

bwbuilds | Posted in General Discussion on June 11, 2009 10:45am

We recently completed an addition in a very upscale neighborhood that included installing about 400 square feet of brazilian cherry / jatoba flooring intended to match the existing floors. The entire floor was sanded and refinished during the process to blend the old and new, and apart from the minor color variations that we expected, the finished product was nearly flawless… All was well for about two months, then we get a phone call that there are spots in the floor. Immediately assuming that we had managed to screw up the finish somehow, we called on the reps for our flooring and finish materials to tell us what we did wrong… Neither had a good answer, so I did a little digging and came up with several detailed accounts of how brazilian cherry can contain resin pockets that will appear through the finish as “milky drops”. Even better is that the wood flooring association doesn’t consider it a defect, and is very difficult to prevent. Supposedly, its a rare problem, and neither of our product reps had seen it more than once before. 

So, here’s our situation… Our client does not like the finished product, it doesn’t look good, and there’s apparrently no way to fix it without replacing boards, and most of the flooring has at least some spotting…

What do you do? Eat the cost of replacement? Tell a good customer that the poor appearance is natural, not a defect, and tell them they’re on their own?

These are the days that I wish I were in another business…

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  1. calvin | Jun 11, 2009 10:54pm | #1

    Has the customer been kept abreast of the situation and dealings with the suppliers?

    Who suggested the flooring?

    How much can you afford to lose in this transaction?

    Will the suppliers help you on supplying new product at cost?

    Best of luck.

    A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.

    Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.

    http://www.quittintime.com/

     

  2. Hudson Valley Carpenter | Jun 11, 2009 11:40pm | #2

    so I did a little digging and came up with several detailed accounts of how brazilian cherry can contain resin pockets that will appear through the finish as "milky drops". Even better is that the wood flooring association doesn't consider it a defect, and is very difficult to prevent.

    Have you shared this recently found information with the client?  I'd print it out and send it to them, with a cover letter telling them where it came from and how you discovered it.

    It seems to me that the supplier is on the hook here, completely.  Unless the supplier notified you, prior to the purchase and installation of the flooring, that there was a possibility of this problem arising, I believe that it's on them to make it right. 

    I'd make those points to the client too.  It's not that I would refuse to be part of the solution, just not at my own expense.

  3. YesMaam27577 | Jun 12, 2009 02:11am | #3

    Last winter, I installed about 600 sq ft of Bruce Engineered flooring, in "Brazilian Cherry". The customer bought the materials on his own, so when this same problem appeared, I didn't have a dog in the fight.

    But it was the weirdest looking problem I've ever seen in a hardwood finish. Depending on where the light was coming from, the spots looked bluish or milky white -- or they vanished (based on the light). Almost looked like someone had spilled a drink or something.

    In my case, there were only a few boards, near the middle of one room. And the engineered product is a click-lock product. So I made a little bit of money doing a little bit of work. If it had been lots of boards of real hardwood -- ouch!

    Politics is the antithesis of problem solving.
  4. wallyo | Jun 12, 2009 02:47am | #4

    A couple of thoughts come to my mind;

    First educate them to the problem with the info you found get the reps over to talk it out face to face with them.

    Second inform them that you could tear it up for a fee, find out if the supplier will provide material at cost and all that, but base on what you found out there is no guaranty it won't happen again. And you will have to charge for labor.

    I wonder if rubbing the brazilian cherry down with something like lacquer thinner will lessen the marking? The same you do when gluing teak.

    Was the finish water based or oil based the second time around ?

    What was used the first time? Might be an oil based could lower the risk of it happening again.

    Did flooring and finish come from the same supplier? If so and the finish is not compatible the supplier is at fault?

    Call the rep for the finish in see what they have to say.

    I look at it the same way paint is warranted, paint is covered not labor!

    I guess what I am getting at is it a compatibility issue between finish and wood that they should of warned you about.

    Keep us posted on how it goes.

    Wallyo

  5. brad805 | Jun 12, 2009 03:03am | #5

    When I was researching finishing my Brazillian Cherry I discovered some discussions of this problem.  Several suggested Bona Traffic to avoid the problem and my floor finish sales rep suggested the same.  I am not a pro, nor have I put down enough to know if there is any truth to this.  I can say mine has not shown any such problems and it is been almost a year since it was finished.

    Brad

    1. bwbuilds | Jun 13, 2009 02:57am | #11

      The finish is Bona Traffic applied over the recommended Bona sealer... I kept digging on the internet and it seems that it's nearly unavoidable if it wasn't noticed before the sanding took place and won't generally show up until after the foor is finished if it has been recently sanded. . We looked it over pretty well and didn't see any before sanding/sealing/coating... Supposedly they try and cull through lumber while grading and pull out boards with obvious spots...

      I guess we'll just have to explain it all to the homeowner and see where we are... It is a natural product after all...

      Thanks for everyone's two cents...

       

      1. brad805 | Jun 13, 2009 03:40am | #12

        That is interesting.  If you find out anything more, please share what you find.  I have quite a bit more to finish and I sure would like to avoid any extra sanding time. 

        I think it is humours that they suggested they cull for this defect.  Those production lines move so fast I'd be surprised if they could spot it unless they look closely.  I'm guessing you might know a thing or two, and you didnt see obvious defects.  I would not be surprised if there might be one or two in the plant that cannot find the coffee shop.

        Best of luck sorting this out.

  6. User avater
    EricPaulson | Jun 12, 2009 03:46am | #6

    From the point of a consumer, someone in a position of authority should have done the legwork to become aware of this potential ahead of specing or installing this product or any product for that matter.

    Tell them of they can't live with it to either stop looking at it or sue you.

    Or try to come up with a win win.

    Good luck. I would try sanding and refinishing.

     

     

    "When the spirits are low, when the day appears dark, when work becomes monotonous, when hope hardly seems worth having, just mount a bicycle and go out for a spin down the road, without thought on anything but the ride you are taking." — Sherlock Holmes, 1896

  7. bd | Jun 12, 2009 02:47pm | #7

    Ain't Sphere a finishing expert? Maybe if you prodded him, he'd have a suggestion. I can't address this to him on my Mac, the options just don't come up. Possibly shellac before finish coat?

  8. Dudley | Jun 12, 2009 03:53pm | #8

    I did not know this -- I put 400 sf of unfinished B Cherry down (yrs ago) and it does not have any of the spots you spoke about.

    Wondering could the installer see the spots as it was being installed - if it is very rare -- this might be your out

    1. wallyo | Jun 12, 2009 04:38pm | #9

      DudleyThere is something similar that happens with fir. I had two interior fir doors sanded, oiled and a water based poly on them. All was fine then the finish dried and there were milky splotches. Tried again the same. Was told by the door rep that fir gets a fungus sometimes, the splotches don't show till after you finish the wood. Had it happen to an exterior door just a year ago also. All were brand new doors couldn't not see anything till the finishing was done.I still have the first set of doors.Wallyo

    2. YesMaam27577 | Jun 12, 2009 05:48pm | #10

      >>"Wondering could the installer see the spots as it was being installed -....."(I'm not the original poster, but...) As i mentioned in an earlier post, I installed a few rooms of Br. Cherry prefinished engineered flooring last winter.As I intsalled it, I looked at each piece for defects (since it had been bought at Lowes). Although there were some pieces with edge damage, and a couple with blatant finish problems (missing the finish altogether), there were none that displayed this milk-blotch problem. Not at the time of installation.The HO called a few days later, and complained of the blotches.

      Politics is the antithesis of problem solving.

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