We are looking to replace the flooring in the kitchen. It looks like the cabinets are on top of the tile. In other words the entire space was tiled and the cabinets were installed on top.
To put new flooring in do we have to rip out the cabinets?
What is the ‘standard’ ? Cabinets first then flooring or flooring with cabinets on top?
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Replies
Do a search to find other threads on this topic. I would hardwood after cabs are in, to avoid expansion issues with flooring and cabinets affixed to flooring.
Dustin
"What is the 'standard' ? Cabinets first then flooring or flooring with cabinets on top?"
I'd say it's 50/50, both ways have advantages/disadvantages. Some people like to save material by not going under the cabinets. Others feel the floor will outlast the cabinets, so they cover the entire room.
You might get lucky and the tile doesn't run all the back. Sometimes, they run the tile just past the toekick, so the cut edge is covered.
This has been discussed several times before, but after today I'd say it depends on which you think you'll replace next--the cabinets or the floor. We removed cabinets today and were planning on putting the new ones in on Thursday. Pulled the first old base cabinet and there's a "hole" in the floor because cabinet was put in first and flooring fit around it. So after we pulled out the old cabinets, we ripped up the old flooring--a layer of partical board with vinyl glued to it, then a layer of luan with no glue vinyl. And a ton of staples yours truly gets to remove or pound flat tomorrow.
I just remodeled my kitchen, and ended up removing all the old flooring, installing the cabinets and then laying hardwood floor up to the cabinets. Looks great, really happy with the job. Then my wife says, "I think we need to move the island 6" closer to the range and refrigerator." Moral of the story: Make darn sure you have the cabinet layout you want before laying the floor. Or grow longer arms.
You can check this by pulling out a bottom drawer in one of your cabinets - or the pots and pans drawer on your stove. You should be able to see how far the tile goes under the cabinets. I recently put a hardwood floor in a kitchen where the cabinets were already in place and just used two pieces of the flooring to provide "runners" for the stove to slide on.
One thing you need to make absolutely sure of is that there is enough clearance to install (and remove) the dishwasher. Dishwashers typically slide into their hole and are then raised into position and leveled with the leveling feet. In a few cases, I've had to remove the leveling feet and use blocks and shims to get the dishwasher in it's final position - not a fun thing to do - lol. In the kitchen I just mentioned, the tile counter end caps extended far enough that I had to remove the leveling feet and it was still difficult to get the dishwasher into it's place.
The moral of this story is that you may want to "mock up" the cabinet and countertop and see if you'll be able to install and remove the dishwasher before you do the final installation.
Checking that the dishwasher will fit is especially important if the countertop edge treatment has an overhang of some type the extends beyond the bottom edge of the substrate. Like the tile trim pieces that are sorta "L" shaped (I can't think of the names right now) or a wood edge banding.
My point exactly, Bryan. For some reason, this problem often gets lost in the shuffle and the installer gets stuck trying to shoehorn the dishwasher into it's hole.
I'm doing some work for a customer remodeling her new condo and yesterday afternoon we were talking about her marble kitchen countertops. I'm not involved in this work but I measured the opening at 34" between the flooring (which extends into the dishwasher ipening and the bottom of the plywood countertop base. In my experience, this won't be enough clearance so I suggested that she have the counter guy slide the dishwasher in before he actually installs the marble. Better safe than sorry, right? - lol
I hope you're kidding about putting the dishwasher in first. The dishwasher will be the first appliance that needs replacing. Can some of the sub-flooring be cut out underneath the dishwasher?
Bryan -
Oops, my post was a bit misleading. I meant that the new dishwasher should be test fitted before the marble goes in. The plywood substrate is in so the opening size is known. It would be a simple thing to see if the dishwasher will fit - or if more clearance is needed. If she needs more clearance, the counter could be raised, or the flooring cut away, or maybe both.
It's a moot point right now, anyway. Yesterday, she told me that the counter folks had assured her that everything would fit. I have my doubts but I'll keep my big mouth shut. - lol The counters go in today and I'm plumbing out the sink early next week. The dishwasher will be delivered and installed after I do the sink and I think I'll make sure I'm absent when it goes in........or doesn't - lol
For a ceramic floor in a kitchen, we boost the cabs with wood filler blocking, so the cab bases sit up at finish floor height. The tile is run safely to the line under the cabs so that toekick boards completely cover the tile.
Thus done, looks as if the tile is run under the cabs.
Only removal of the toekicks will tell for sure. The cabs we use all have solid bottom floors, so there is no way of looking down from within the cabs, as to what's underneath.
That said, if when you investigate, you find that tile was run through, your tile contractor can cut the existing tile with a cutter, to that back-of-toekick line, and remove existing flooring to the cut. Then, on with the new tile job!
Good luck.
Gene Davis, Davis Housewrights, Inc., Lake Placid, NY
In a new kitchen I always run the flooring clear under an island, but rarely under perimeter cabinets. Instead I carry it a few inches under the tow kick and fill in under the cabinets for a uniform level (if hardwd or tile).
In a remodel, if flooring was run to the walls, I sazall back to a point behind the toekick, put in new flooring and re-install the toekick.
Andrew
Architect/Builder
got to chime in here.
'g'reen building starts with building for longevity. as in, build it right, once, and it will last. if you are remodeling a kitchen how can you not run hardwood flooring throughout.
are these cabinets going to outlast the floors??? absolutely not. some other poor contractor will have to come in and lace hardwood to exisiting.
these are not dollars we are talking about...these are sense.
58350.13 in reply to 58350.12
'g'reen building starts with building for longevity.....
Green Building also includes careful management of resources. Kitchen floors get changed A LOT more frequently than cabinets. And you';re sure not going to replace the flooring that is under cabinets that are staying.
But even if the cabinets are being changed, there is little (or no) advantage that I can think of to having the flooring run clear to the walls, except for being able to move the location of the refrigerator.
Andrew
If given the choice, I always run the flooring solid all the way thru under the cabs. The main reason sooner or later that dishwasher is going to be switched out, and then its a real pain in the arse. Secondly if their is ever a leak from sink or dishwasher I don't like the little bathtub effect that's created by just running under toe kicks and blocking on back wall.
The extra expense I feel is minable, some people think their saving money by doing it different, but if their is a problem I want to be able to see way before alot of damage has occurred.
Sorry DANUSAN11,
You lost me...the last time I ran hardwood flooring clear to the wall, it was the leak you mentioned that buckled the flooring under the sink cabinet, forcing a complete tear out of both cabinets and flooring. So, exactly what was gained ?
Andrew
flooring first absolutly
a good cabinet installer will scribe cabinets to the flooring at the ends of a run
if the flooring is vinyl, the cabinets will hold the edges down, ceramic tile? makes the tile job easier and neater same with hardwood
only exception is floating laminate, do not insatall cabinets ontop of a laminate floor
really removing the cabinets is not that a big a deal and will aleviate alot of problems later, like dishwasher height for removal later for service or replacement
i would definitly remove the countertop and base cabinets and place the new flooring under them
caulking is not a piece of trim
Edited 5/23/2005 8:25 am ET by steve
In the building trades, the flooring is usually the last step. The Flooring usually gets cut around obstacles, with the exception of wooded door casings, they get cut, and the flooring goes underneath them. If you wanted a hardwood floor layed in your kitche, I recommend a floating floor, to be installed over the existing tile, cut the doors if necessary. Good luck