What with all the hooplah lately to stop using incandescent bulbs in favor of the curly flourescents, to include sales and credits being offered, I wonder if any long time users of the flourescents have comments, pro or con. I have a four light fan fixture that needs a new bulb every month or so, due I’m sure to fan vibration, but would it really make a difference positively to replace the bulbs with flourescents? How does the light look? My wife hates traveling to motels with flourescent lights in their bathrooms, because they highlight her few gray hairs. I, of course, have nothing else but, so that’s not my issue. Is the advertised 75 watt equivalent actually equivalent in lumens? What issue is heat? Thanks in advance.
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Replies
I use them in one fan, but I don't use the kind that can dim - haven't seen too many of them available yet.
They will make more light with less heat. Light bulbs make 5% light and 95% heat with every watt they use. However, being in a recesed can will shorten their lives. They don't make much heat, but the heat they do make takes a toll on the electronics in the base.
Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Parenting has always been a mix of sage life advice and inexcusable laziness.
Thanks for answering. I don't what you mean about a toll on electronics,but I'm even more baffled about your signature comment on parenting. I use sage for cooking, and I don't consider myself to be a lazy parent. I guess I didn't get it.
Been using the fluorescent "bulbs" for maybe 6-8 years now. They've only gotten better and cheaper over that time.
You may have to try a few brands to find ones you like (I actually prefer the no-name stuff they sell at HD), and some folks don't like any of them, but most people can't tell the difference between the fluorescent and a regular incandescent.
The bulbs tend to burn "brown" for the first 30-60 seconds and take maybe 2 minutes to get to full brightness. Plus they lie a bit about the "watts equivalent". So I prefer to use a "75-watt equivalent" unit in place of a 60W incandescent.
For the smaller sizes (up to 75-100W "equivalent") heat is no longer an issue. (Used to be the ballast could overheat in an enclosed fixture.) We've had them burning in fully enclosed fixtures with no apparent problems or shortened life.
Don't know how they'd hold up to the vibration of a fan. Bear in mind that you can buy "rough service" incandescent bulbs (in limited sizes) for places where vibration is a problem.
The two problems the fluorescent bulbs still have are: 1) You can't dim them. Yes, there are "dimmable" units, but they don't really work. 2) Though they're smaller all the time, they still occupy more space than the equivalent incandescent (especially if you go up a size) and may not fit in certain fictures.
Like every other lamp, fluorescents have their good and bad points.
Many of the CFLs are far better than they were only a few years ago. That does not mean that they will all equally install base up, base down, base horizontal, what have you. There are still color issues with CFLs. Fewer than before, but, every time you need something special, the number of choices goes down. (Just try to get a peach/fleshtone in CFL.)
The number of shapes is still limited, so finding a lamp to fit a fixture can be, ah, interesting. Under a lamp shade, not so much--in a glass fixture, maybe a bit more. Chandelier fixtures--who knows?
Oh yeah, best not need a heat/sun lamp in CFL.
The worst "sin" CFLs have is the worst sin of "regular" T12 Fluorescents--when they buzz, they buzz until replaced (I've 7 of 12 from a case of "mock globe" fixtures that make some sort of noise--what a happy client, one would buzz like a wasp, the next popped like water in hot oil; another in the batch made the faintest of beeper rings . . . )
But, when they work, they work, and work, and work. I have one in the laundry room (in a bare ceramic base mounted to the ceiling), that's going on 5.5 years now. The one in the garage did not survive a 220 jolt when the can up the street failed, but, it was the only fixture energized when the pole colapsed in the can.
I use them everywhere I can mainly because I was sick of replacing bulbs. A few haven't lasted as long as advertized, perhaps because the ballasts went bad. Some come on instantly, others take a few seconds. I haven't had any that hum. They won't fit in some lamps, especially designer lamps with glass shades because the socket is the wrong size or is too deep, and the shade too narrow. The color is about the same as incandescents, but not as white as halogens. They put out much less heat, so they're good for enclosed fixtures if they fit. I use 150W equivalents in floor lamps, less in table lamps and wall fixtures. I don't have any ceiling fixtures in the living area.
Edited 5/21/2007 11:40 pm ET by Disputantum
I agree with the other kids.
I tried them several years ago and hated them. They just weren't up to snuff for diay-to-day use in certain locations.
Now they're what I use. If I replace an incandescent, it's with a CFL.
I even have them in the ceiling cans in the kitchen, where "instant on" and good light is needed. Not quite "instant", but good enough to not miss than nearly 1000 watts of halogen floods that we had before.
They last a very long time. The rated life is many times an incandescent lamp, tested under precisely controlled conditions. Experience backs that up. When they first came out I gave an extra I had to some friends building a house. Thirteen years later she emailed me to say the lamp had finally burned out.
The color is unnatural, but getting better. They are better than hotel fluorescents. Hotels buy the cheapest, lowest Color Rendering Index lamps available. The screw in fluorescents you can buy now are somewhat in between the cheap hotel fluorescents and an incandescent.
I would not use fluorescents in a bathroom because of the light quality and because they are not dimmable, but for general area lighting, supplemented by incandescents where color is important, such as a kitchen or dining room, they are fine.
Pros -
1) Less energy & less heat
Cons -
1) CFLs rarely last as long as claimed
2) They emit radio and power line noise
3) They get dimmer as they age
4) Can cause weird color rendition
5) Most can't be dimmed
I'm hoping CFLs are a passing fad, and we will eventually get more efficient and much longer lived LED lights at the same prices.
<Cons -1) CFLs rarely last as long as claimed
2) They emit radio and power line noise
3) They get dimmer as they age
4) Can cause weird color rendition
5) Most can't be dimmed>One more con that you missed. The Mercury in the bulbs! When they become law to save energy, the governments better mandate recycling of them too!
You are right that the mercury in CFLs is an issue. (I still haven't purchased any CFLs for this and other reasons.) But there are certainly much bigger toxic polluntant risks in any home.
Here's an article written by a professor from Harvard on the issue, though the comments below it seem to reasonably dispute her analysis of risk:
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2007/05/ask_treehugger_14.php
But, the levels in the bulbs are going down due to pressure from a number of groups including Walmart.
http://www.prnewswire.com/news/index_mail.shtml?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/05-10-2007/0004585479&EDATE=
Here's a decent summary of various vendors' efforts:
http://www.ecogeek.org/content/view/610/
Even after the mercury level is lowered, people will still need to recycle these things to avoid exposing garbage men and contaminating landfills with mercury.
Unilike batteries, old thermometers, etc., CFLs contain mercury vapor which quite easily disperses into the air as soon as the bulb breaks.
Basically, if you break one, leave the area immediately, get a NIOSH-rated mask and then clean it up without vacuuming, and wipe down the area with a damp cloth. For an adult, the exposure effects from one broken bulb will likely be minimal, but for a small child, this could be a problem.
As usual, new product releases always pre-date the health warnings. To be safe, I'm just going to buy LED lights once they become more readily available.
Edited 5/22/2007 12:46 pm ET by Thaumaturge
The potential danger from the minute amount of mercury (5 mg or about .0004 ml) present in a CFL is being overblown. Yes, certain compounds of mercury are highly toxic, but the metal itself is not particularly dangerous. A broken CFL might release a bit of mercury but the vapor will quickly dissipate and a normal cleanup with soap and water will take care of the rest. I'm NOT suggesting we throw these bulbs in the regular trash pickup, but stories of HAZMAT guys in space suits and homes evacuated over a broken bulb are just silly. What ever happened to common sense in this country?
A question I have is what is in regular fluorescent tubes?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluorescent_lampNeon and/or argon with a dash of mercury. Current through the gas produces UV light, which is converted to visible light by the fluorescent coating inside the tube. The color of the lamp depends on the makeup of this coating.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
My point was how much difference is there in the mercury in cfl's and tubes? We see all the gloom and doom about the cfl's and their danger, is it that much more than the tubes people toss in the dumpster?
Tubes have more mercury in them.And yes they are treated as hazardous waster for commercial users. It is just the number of residential users have been relatively low that they have not been included.There are newer lower mercury tubes and are not hazardous waste. But insome areas there are still "controls" on them in high volumnes.A couple of weeks ago there was a news story about the cleanup of a CFL where the state (Maine?) suggested a $2000 remdeial company. They have not said that is not necessary.In that thread I posted some more information..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Here in LA it's mandatory for all flourescents, both tubes and CFL's.
-- J.S.
"Here in LA it's mandatory for all flourescents, both tubes and CFL's."
What is mandatory???? Are there no regular lite bulbs in LA??????
I used to live in Calif back in the 60's. When they legalized being gay, I left. Cause I knew they would soon make it mandatory.
RECYCLING is manditory. Is here too, in theory. In practice I'm sure a lot of them go into the garbage, but it's probably still a net reduction in mercury emissions since there's a lot of mercury in coal.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
The Ontario government has announced that by 2010 incamdescent bulbs will no longer be available. As far as the the gays go, I hear they moved to California.
Have a good day
Cliffy
Will everybody have to trash their designer and antique lamps? And the ones that use minibase chandilier bulbs?
As previously noted, candelabra-base CFLs are appearing, certainly in B10 and G10-G16 sizes; however, they are not clear, which is a terrible detractor for people with real crystal fixtures.
<!----><!----> <!---->
Phill Giles<!----><!---->
The Unionville Woodwright<!----><!---->
Those are the questions that have been in the paper lately. I don't know but I think I may hoard a few bulbs away. I will keep them in the garage attic with the 4 gallon toilet!
Have a good day
CLiffy
I think there's something about "people in grass houses shouldn't store thrones". But I guess your house isn't grass.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Around here the coppers fly around at night with infra red cameras to find the grass houses. They usually find those at the same time they find the ones with the electricity bypassing the electric meter also.
I 'm the third little pig, the house is brick.
Have a good day
Cliffy
Cliffy, you're thinking Ontario is the centre of the universe, again LOL!
I do believe that the missive re: incandescent lamps was federal.Quality repairs for your home.
AaronR ConstructionVancouver, Canada
Nope, Cliffy's right: among the long list of "green" initiatives recently announced by McGinty, conversion to energy-efficient lightbulbs was one of them.
<!----><!----> <!---->
Phill Giles<!----><!---->
The Unionville Woodwright<!----><!---->
No, everybody here knows Toronto and the Maple Leafs are the centre of the universe! If the CFL lites is federal, great. That Dalton had a big thing a few weeks ago about how Ontario is leading the pack blah blah blah till somebody told him we are way behind Australia.
Have a good day
Cliffy
PS Too bad about the Canucks. I thought they might win the west, I even took Luongo as my goalie in the pool!
When they legalized being gay, I left. Cause I knew they would soon make it mandatory.
Stupid sentiment.
Edited 5/22/2007 8:28 pm ET by edlee
US Army's fourth general order: "Everything not forbidden is mandatory."
It's the treatment of all flourescents as hazardous waste that's mandatory -- it's illegal to put them in the ordinary trash. The city schedules special drop-off events where you can take them and any other hazmats you have such as motor oil or paints. The requirement may come from the state rather than the city, I really don't know. The state legislature is considering a ban on incandescents, currently scheduled for 2011.
-- J.S.
On the noise, I think now that electronic ballasts are part of the Energy Star rating, this isn't as much of an issue. Bulbs have to meet max RFI levels. From personal experience, we put CFLs about everywhere we could in our house. The only RFI I've noticed is a brief turn-on thump in the room where the baby monitor receiver is located.
I use a X-10 modules and relays and CFL ballasts definitely put a lot of noise on the power lines. In my shop I can always tell when one of the ballasts is about to fail because the X-10 light switch for that area stops working right before the ballast blows.If you crack one of the CFL bases open to look at the ballast, you'll see its a cheap circuit board stuffed with cheap parts. There is no RF shielding or any filter to keep noise off the AC power lines.
If I put a CFL in a fixture with a dimmer switch what happens? Will it work and just not dim, will it mess up the bulb if the dimmer is used, will Canada send me an award? Outside of the gates the trucks were unloadin',
The weather was hot, a-nearly 90 degrees.
The man standin' next to me, his head was exploding,
Well, I was prayin' the pieces wouldn't fall on me.
The end of the universe as we know it. Or maybe something will catch fire.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
The dimmer will dim and the CFL will act dumb -- you'll end up with dim and dumber, and you'll be $5 poorer when the bulb dies.The ballast has to be designed to work with a dimmer. AFAIK, only Phillips sells CFLs that are advertised to work with dimmers.
And they don't, really. They just aren't as apt to catch fire.
Also, the "dimmable" CFLs are way bigger than the standard ones -- won't fit many fixtures.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Edited 5/23/2007 3:22 pm by DanH
And they don't, really. They just aren't as apt to catch fire.Also, the "dimmable" CFLs are way bigger than the standard ones -- won't fit many fixtures.
You've said that twice now, but does that make it so? Hard data please.
Check out PAGE 6 of this pdf file.....dimmable CF's, that use a CONVENTIONAL incandescent dimmer (you don't need a pricey ballast-dimmer). I have a friend, a professional builder, who really likes them and uses them in his kitchen (cans), so I'm going to buy a few to try them out. They run about $7 at the supply house.
http://www.litetronics.com/Catalog/harmony.pdf
Regards mercury, etc. All technologies seem to have some negative environmental side-effects, as even LED's will (pollution by the semi-conductor industry is a problem!). It's a matter of balance and degree. IMHO :-)
Me, I use CF's a lot around the house. But in my kitchen cans I use 50PAR20 halogen floods. Nothing like instant, very bright light, for cooking and cleaning up. My 53-year old eyes aren't quite what they used to be.
Ed
Have you actually TRIED dimmables? They turn down to maybe 50% brightness, with intolerable flicker below about 75%, then turn off. Technically that's "dimmable", but not worth the effort.And have you compared the size of a dimmable to the "comparable" incandescant bulb? Much larger, and not able to fit into most fixtures (though they might work out OK in cans).
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Have you actually TRIED dimmables?
Well, I just told you that I haven't tried them. I looked at my friend's kitchen , this is a new product, and they looked very good to me (though I don't think I want them in my kitchen, as my post says). No noticable flicker and they dim down fairly low (the manufacturor spec's are to 15% of full value). Maybe you're looking at an older technology.
As for size, I looked at the link I posted and the sizes they describe are very close, maybe 1/4" longer than the non-dimmable spiral CF's I'm using now.
Definitely bigger than A-lamps though, I'll grant you that.
Ed
His he using dimmable CFL's (ie edison base) in his cans or is his using cans that only take flourscents and have built in ballast..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Bill,
The lamps are medium screw-shell , self-contained, and they are indicated in the pdf link I posted.
Available as accessories are a back reflector and a snap cover (about $3) that convert them in effect into R-30's.
Ed
Edited 5/23/2007 8:41 pm ET by edlee
I looked at a display put on by the state energy conservation folks, probably late last fall. They had operating displays of the various CFLs, including a dimmable. Was talking to one of the folks presenting and she lamented that a decent dimmable was still unavailable (as proved by the miserable example they had on display).Now, maybe something has come out since then, but I haven't seen it.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
You have to pick and choose the colour you want: We've settled on Philips Daylight where a bright (very bright !) blue-white light is needed and Philip's Marathon Sunlight (the "Sunlight' is important, 5000K, they make several other colours) where a light that matches outside would be nice (like a dressing-room, or a vanity light where make-up is applied). These are good value because they're 10,000 to 12,000 hour bukbs with a 7-year guarantee (we watch the cost/hour).
We havbe various other bulbs, mostly Sylvania and other Marathon bulbs around the house, for a closet with an opaque fixture, it just doesn't matter to us what bulb we're using; bring on the bargans.
We're beginning to experiment withe the next generation of CFLs that have the incandescent-like shell and with the B10, B8, and G10 replacements - wait a year.
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
I can only add one point to all the others.
Our garage door opener was going through bulbs about every three weeks. I tried garage door opener bulbs, fan bulbs, rough service bulbs and every bulb my hardware store carried. About 6 months ago a put in a noma 13 watt CFL bulb and it is still working.
Have a good day
Cliffy
When we bought our house, in 1999, the power co. was offering a special on those bulbs. I bit, and just this year had to replace a couple of them - most of the others are still fine.
They work much better in a vibrating fixture - thanks to a hint form somebody on this forum, I put them in my droplights, too.
They are available in several color temperatures - you may have to try a few to get ones your DW likes - you can put the rejects in out-of the way spots, so they won't go to waste.
I'm down to just a couple of fitures without them, where they just won't fit. It's a painless way to save quite a few watts.
I have tried only a few. I have one that's been working fine for at least 8 years (it came with the house), so longevity seems to be pretty good. I just bought a no-name at HD that was billed as being the equivalent of a 55 watt incandescent. It's dimmer than the 40 watt bulb it replaced. The color is billed as being similar to incandescent bulbs. It's not; it's rather sickly.
The best color rendition I've found is from a set of GE circline bulbs that claim to closely mimic incandescents. IMO, they live up to the claim. They've only been in a year, but I expect them to last a looonnngggg time.
I also bought a fluorescent that is designed to replace the small interior floodlight bulbs. I haven't installed it yet, so I don't know how it's going to do.
For those of you that have bulbs that closely mimic incandescents in color, how 'bout some brand names for the rest of us?
George Patterson
I've been using CFL for quite a while. My results have varied. A few of the CFL's didn't last any longer than an incandescent, but then others have lasted for years.
I've got a 2-light fixture in the utility room where I've put a CFL and an incandescent. The CFL gives me more light (60 watt bulb restriction on the fixture) and the incandescent gives me instant on (the light gets flipped on and off a lot). I can't remember how long ago I put the CFL in, but on a little piece of tape I make a mark every time I change the incandescent. IIRC, there are 14-16 marks so far. And sometimes I'm a little slow changing the burnt out incandescent, so the total would be higher if I changed it as soon as it burnt out.
I've got another one in a table lamp in the LR. That outlet is on the main light switch and that light gets a lot of burn time. It has probably been going strong for 8-10 years.
But anyway, when I first starting buying CFL's, it was to put them in the long-burning lights. The lights that see hours of burn time every day. From there I started adding them to areas that needing more light (like the utility room) where a 23w CFL would be below the 60watt restriction, but still provide equiv of 100w of light.
jt8
"One of the true tests of leadership is the ability to recognize a problem before it becomes an emergency." -- Arnold H. Glasgow
I was trying to get some info about the CF's that Home Depot was selling and I ended up talking to someone at the manufacturor, then I looked them up online.
They actually seem to be an interesting company trying to do some innovative engineering.
http://www.tcpi.com/default.aspx
Ed