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Discussion Forum

Fluorescent lights and cold weather

JJV | Posted in General Discussion on January 14, 2004 09:41am

Hi everyone-

I’m hoping someone can set me straight on something.  My workshop is in a partially insulated, unheated 2 car garage.  I chose the dirt-cheap $25 8-ft fluorescent light fixtures for illumination (how clever of me, I thought-light the whole place for $100).  2 very cold winters later (I live near Boston), I decided that the humming and flickering in the cold were pointless so I switched out the ballasts and put in electronic ones.  They work fine, but I’ve suddenly blown out 3 of my 4 sets of tubes.  I replaced them with some different ones and less than 3 weeks later the ends of THOSE are looking a lilttle black, as though the tubes are on the way out too. 

Anyway, I looked on the ballast again and it says to use F96T12ES tubes, and I’m now using F96T12 CW/SS.  My questions are: was I wrong to think that all ballasts are interchangeable?  Should I just swap the magnetic ones back? 

Thank you in advance for your insight!

John


Edited 1/16/2004 2:22:51 PM ET by johnniev

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Replies

  1. User avater
    Luka | Jan 14, 2004 09:55pm | #1

    Why not get rid of the problem and put in banks of those cheap ceramic closet light fixtures ?

    Put the compact florescents in them.

    I just bought two packages of four each, 75 watt size for 1 dollar per package. That's 25 cents a bulb. I also bought two packages of the 100 watt size. for 2 dollars a package, or 50 cents a bulb. (The local electric utility company subsidizes them.)

    They DO last a long time. Plus, I have one on my porch. It has never faulted from being outside. Nor has it had problems with the cold out there.

    Yaaarg !¡!¡!  Hold still... While I smite thee ! 

    quittintime

    1. JohnSprung | Jan 14, 2004 10:02pm | #2

      My experience with compact flourescents is that many last longer than incandescents, but a good number of them blow much sooner, like a week or two.  It would seem to be a difficult QC problem, how much burn-in can you afford on an item that cheap?

      -- J.S.

  2. User avater
    BillHartmann | Jan 14, 2004 10:05pm | #3

    "My questions are: was I wrong to think that all ballasts are interchangeable?"

    Yes.

    I am guessing that the ES refers to Energy Savers bulbs.

    I looked in the GE catalog and they did not show any bulbs with an SS designation, but in a cross reference they did show Osram Supper Savers as being equivalent to the GE Watt Mizer so the SS might be super saver.

    http://www.gelighting.com/na/litlib/pr_consumer.html

    I would try and find the complete specs on the ballast and see what they say. With the brand and part number you can probly find it online.

    But do youself a favor and get rid of the cool whites.

    Go a bulb that has a CRI of 80 or better. SPX or Desinger 800 series.

    What you might want to do is go to an electrical supply house and get the bulbs and then matching ballasts.

    Also there are companies that just supply light bulbs, check the yellow pages.

  3. ravenwind | Jan 14, 2004 10:43pm | #4

    I have no idea about the balest but i understand that flor bulbe dont like the cold weather there the long tubes or the twist bulb type.  there is a flouresnt bulb fixture at h depotthat says cold weather use but dont know if they work. I have 8 lights /ceramic utility type, and right now im using 75 watt reg bulbs where i need light fast and bright and flor twist bulbs where i just need light that seem to get brighter as they warm up / near door and towards back of garage / i gave up on the long bulgs a long time ago .   one point to make / if the garage is heated they will work fine .               but that can be a huge cost .               dogboy

  4. WayneL5 | Jan 15, 2004 01:37am | #5

    Fluorescents generally don't work below 50°F unless you get special ballasts rated for cold weather.  These ballasts take what are called high-output lamps.  It's what you'd see in a commercial application outdoors.  High output lamps have a different pin configuration on the end, so you can't mix up high output lamps with standard ballasts and vice versa.

    From experience I can say that standard fluorescents really don't work in the cold, just like the spec says, and high-outputs really do.

    You can often get much better pricing on lamps from an electrical supply house that deals a lot with contractors.

    1. JJV | Jan 15, 2004 05:00pm | #6

      That's what I put in-ballasts rated for 0 degrees and above.  (Lately, here in this area, even that temp rating has been challenged.)  I have seen high-output lamps (ones rated for freezers and the like) and they do indeed have a different pin style. 

      I guess I'm confused because I bought a 4' fixture with a pull chain for over my tablesaw.  This fixture is rated for cold weather.  I put some regular old lamps in it and it's worked fine for 2 years, so I guess I thought the ballasts would work too.  They seem to do ok; I'm just concerned that I will be replacing lamps every month or so.  I figure I'll have to wait to see what happens with the new lamps.  If they blow out then I'll just remove the electronic ballasts, put the old ones back in, and head off to an electrical supply.

      I should probably just bite the bullet and insulate the ceiling, and heat the place up-that would end this problem...

      Thanks to everyone for your input.

      1. DaveRicheson | Jan 15, 2004 05:36pm | #7

        Electronic ballast are rated to near zero degrees, but are not high output ballast. Match an HO ballast and an HO lamp, and you won't have any problem. HO lamps have bi-pins, but a retangular colar around the pins to prevent them from being installed in a standard bi-pin socket. HO lamps generally go in fixtures with push in type sockets. The lamps (8') run about $8.00 to $12.00 per bulb. The HO ballast are two to three timesthe cost of the electronic ballast. By the time you match the ballast, the lamps, and the lamp sockets, it would be cheaper to buy new fixtures.

        BTW don't confuse single pin lamps with HO lamps.

        Dave

  5. 4Lorn2 | Jan 16, 2004 06:52am | #8

    In addition to the cold you might be getting poor lifespan on you lamps, tubes, because of the way you are using them. Florescent lights are best used where they can be turned on and remain on for an extended period. Always on is the ideal.

    The problem is that the greatest amount of wear occurs during starting. Particularly in cold conditions and if the ballast must 'restrike' many times as when the tube is very cold and/or worn already.

    The issue is that every time a florescent starts a portion of the mercury and other chemicals, that allow the ballast to start an arc the length of the tube, is used up. Primarily by being sequestered away from the starting process by condensing on the cold tube near the warming filaments. This becomes obvious as the dark bands at the ends that tend to indicate the end of the service life of a florescent tube.

    Because of this I try to avoid using florescent fixtures where they will be turned on and off frequently. Hallways, bathrooms, garages, if not used primarily as a shop or laundry center, are IMHO poor uses.

    I sometimes, if the HO will go for it, install two lighting systems in a garage/shop. One using conventional incandescent bulbs with the switches nearest the doors so that for short term use they are the primary lighting and a set of florescent lights over benchtops and work centers for when the HO wishes to use the shop for an evening.

    You might consider adding a few incandescent light fixtures on a separate switch placed where they would be the primary light for short trips. This would allow the florescent lights start/ stop lifetime to be reserved for when you intend to spend a considerable period in the shop.

    Compact florescent are less prone to these problems. Their much shorter strike path, lower overall volume and built in electronic ballast all allow them to warm up more quickly and strike with less loss in colder temperatures. That said they are not totally immune to wear at each start.  They seem to be an intermediate between the long tube florescent and the incandescent light.

    Florescent are not the only lamps with this problem. Halogen lamps also wear quickly if run for short periods and not allowed to come too operating temperatures.

     A few tips that I have found to help increase the longevity of these units: Try to buy quality long tube florescent lamps. Try to find lamps which are consistently stored on their side. Good luck on the last point as they do tend to store easier vertically.

    When you install new tubes turn them on and allow them to run for several hours so that they can come up to operating temperature and the filling has time to be evenly dispersed through out their length. Use them only when they can be left on for a few hours. If you can, try to avoid using them when coldest.

    1. moltenmetal | Jan 16, 2004 03:35pm | #9

      Hey 4Lorn1, you're not so alone- I did something similar.  Compact fluorescents for cheap, bright light throughout the room, and halogen accent lights on dimmers if you want to give the place some "atmosphere".  Both options provide far more energy -efficient light generation than ordinary incandescent lights. 

      As far as cold weather goes, I have a compact fluorescent in my porch light.  I did have one die quickly, but put another one in and it's been working great, lasting well over a year so far and still going strong- and it was 30 below last night (I didn't try the porch light at those temps...).  Agree on the quality control being a bit iffy- both of the compacts were cheap-o Chinese "Globe Manufacturing" units.

      1. edwardh1 | Jan 16, 2004 04:43pm | #10

        to me the compact fluorscents dont put out as much light.

        maybe their rating system is wacko.

        1. UncleDunc | Jan 16, 2004 07:23pm | #11

          They're certainly not as bright when you first turn them on, but they do get brighter as they warm up. You may be right about the advertised wattage equivalents being too optimistic, though. Wouldn't be the first product ever sold by means of systematic lying.

          1. JohnSprung | Jan 16, 2004 11:31pm | #16

            I wonder if those wattage equivalents include UV which is outside the visible spectrum, or if they somehow weight the two green spectral lines of the mercury in a way that doesn't correspond to the sensitivity of the human eye. 

            -- J.S.

      2. User avater
        BillHartmann | Jan 16, 2004 07:32pm | #12

        I have a pair of Panasonic CFL on a pole that forms a yard light. They are on a photocell. The first set lasted 3 years, working down to zero, and one went out.

        When I replaced them I did some reverse engineering and saw that the one that failed had a mechanical failure. That was probably caused when I smaked the pole with the bucket on an excevator.

    2. User avater
      BillHartmann | Jan 16, 2004 07:38pm | #13

      I don't buy that.

      While you basic premise is correct and the life times will be reduced unless he is turning the lights on for 5 seconds and then off for 55 seconds, 24x7, they aren't going to fail in weeks.

      Either it is a mismatched ballast/bulb, a bad ballast, a batch of bad bulbs or something similar.

      In my garage I have the orginal "bare bulbs" and added several strip fluorescents and keep saying "one of these days" I am going to wire them on a separate circuit, but haven't. They have been like that for over 20 years and I think on the same set of bulbs.

      1. 4Lorn2 | Jan 17, 2004 07:08am | #18

        My reply was more of an overview and possible long term plan for those planning garage shops or other areas where both long and short term use are expected. I was less concerned with solving this particular case.

        I would suspect his drastically reduced lifespan to be, in addition to the possibilities you cite, to be something fairly simple. A mismatch between the lamps and ballast, a bad tombstone or not seating the lamps completely would all be common causes of extremely short tube life.

        Even something as a combination of failing to properly ground the fixtures and cold can cause a fixture to continually restrike. Lamp life can often be measured in days in these cases.

        You could throw in low line voltage, a loose connection within the fixture, bad neutral connections or gremlins and bad spirits to the possible causes. Hard to troubleshoot without being on site with some test equipment. Sometimes just looking at the situation can give valuable information. Lots of variables.

  6. fireball | Jan 16, 2004 08:04pm | #14

    You might have better luck going to T8 ballasts and lamps.The company that I work for often subcontracts work from Honeywell to go into school systems and replace all of their T12 light fixtures with T8's,and also reconfigure their HVAC controls.The T12 lamps are 1 1/2" in diameter,the T8's are 1" diameter,and the newest generation of T5 lamps just coming into use are 5/8" diameter.If the schools don't save 20% on their electricity Honeywell pays the difference.The T8 lamps last longer,are brighter, and have better color rendering.As for the lower starting temperature I know we've used them in grocery store coolers and freezers,but I don't remember if the fixture ballast was special or not.The supply house counterman would be the best guy to ask.I haven't put a new T12 fixture in anywhere for a long long time now.

    1. DaveRicheson | Jan 16, 2004 10:55pm | #15

      I have six 4' fixtures for my shop that are electronic ballast  and use T8 lamps. they are better than the T12 at low temperatures, say 30 to 55 degrees, but below 30 i can't see much differance.

      I am replacing all my T12 lamps with T10 long life  full spectrum bulbs as I can afford them, for the very saving you referred to.

      Ever work for Authur Electric in Cincinati OH? They do a lot of HVAC control wiring for Trane Corp. I can't remember the local number, but they did three schools here last summer. Used a lot of helpers out of local 369, only one or two journeymen.

      Dave

      1. fireball | Jan 17, 2004 06:14am | #17

        Hi Dave,

         I've never worked for the outfit that you mentioned.When we get these school jobs I don't mind the HVAC portion of it,in fact it's kind of interesting to figure out how to control old boilers and roof top units with a Honeywell microprocessor.What I DREAD is the ballast changing portion of the job,it is so monotonous that not too far into the first day you want to scream.Working with my elbows above my shoulders for 8 hrs. sucks anymore.I can do about 25 fixtures a day,but we have guys that can do 40 or more.It's not something I try to excel at.

        Barry

        1. DaveRicheson | Jan 17, 2004 05:57pm | #19

          Authur Electric did all the HVAC control work on an upgrade in our building last year. I spent four months on a 5:00pm to 3:00am shift watching/ expiditing that job.

          We are currently relamping the same building with T10 full spectrum bite bulbs. We are only replacing the weak ballast as we find them. I agree 100%. That job sucks.

          Dave

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