I have a toilet flushing problem which I hope someone can assist me with.
We have two toilets in our two story home. The first floor toilet is the type with the tank nestled quite low behind the bowl. The one is a Kohler. The tank top is just slightly above the toilet seat. The upstairs toilet has its tank above the bowl so this is probably the older of the two. The tank on this toilet appears larger as well. This one is an American Standard. We bought this bungalow two years ago so we do not know how old either are.
Here is the problem. The first floor toilet works fine. You press the handle, water runs into the bowl and most, if not all of the water, goes down the drain before you can hear the flapper close. No problem here.
The upstairs toilet is another problem. After you press down on the handle, the water rushes into the bowl, but all of the water does not go down the drain. All of the water in the tank does drain down, but the water level in the bowl remains at the level it was prior to the start of the flushing cycle. Consequently, most of the refuse remains in the bowl together with the tissue which usually floats.
Holding the handle down does not work either. The flapper does have a slight tendency to close early, but whether or not it is kept open does not seem to be the cause of the inefficient flushing. I believe that the culprit is the fact that the water never totally leaves the bowl during the flush cycle as the Kohler does. This could be the way it was designed when these above-the-bowl commodes were made. It could also be that this drain is constricted in some manner which would restrict the flow of water down the drain.
I can provide photos of this toilet if anyone finds this necessary.
Any help would be tremendously appreciated.
Regards,
Phillip
Replies
You say that the water goes from the tank to the bowl, but the level in the bowl does not change?
???
Is this what is happening the; the level in the bowl goes up and then slow returns to normal, without going through a stage where it goes low first?
If so there are 2 potentinal problems. A partial clog in the drain. Most likely within the loop in the toilet. You an try reaching back into it. But you might not be able to get it. Best removing the toilet and turning it upside down.
The other is that the jet is blocked. In the front bottom of the bowl is hole. That is suppose to shoot out a strong jet of water to get a syphon flow started.
Look at that when you flush and see if you are getting a lot of water out of it or not.
Mineral diposits can block it and I have heard of the "cleaning cakes" getting flushed down and blocking it.
Bill,Thanks for your input. And, I agree. There must be a clog in the system. Shortly after we bought this bungalow, the sink (in the same upstairs bathroom) would not drain. So, after several 'hints' by my 'financial manager', I went up and disassembled the stopper. When I pulled it up, attached to it was the nastiest brown thing I had ever seen come out of a sink drain. Needless to say, that was the problem. This bungalow is over 90 years old and I firmly believe that the previous owners did not believe in maintenance of any sort. I have several stories, but I'll spare you. Anyway, I believe that tomorrow I will rip the toilet off and get to the heart of the matter.I really appreciate your input.Regards,
Phillip
Before you take the toilet out, you can try a toilet plunger and/or a closet auger. A toilet plunger has an extension like a horn to seal in the drain hole.If you do pull the toilet, I have a couple of suggestions as an old house owner. 1. Check for cracks - it you have them replace the toilet. 2. Examine the closet flange carefully. It should be secure to the floor and sit on top of the finished floor. Sometimes people at floor layers but don't raise the closet flange, which will result in a leak. 3. When you have the toilet out, clean out the whole drain line with a plumbers snake/auger.
Bryan,Thank you for your input.I did try the plunger, but we have one of the old-fashioned ones which does not have the extension such as you mentioned. Perhaps I should run to Lowe's and get one before I take the toilet off.And you can rest assured that I will do all that you mentioned once it is off. As for leaks, this toiled has never leaked since we have been in occupancy. I have a plumbers snake but find that it is difficult to get it to make those 180 degree bends, but I will certainly use it in the drain pipe once the toilet is off.I really appreciate all of your suggestions and I will follow through and report back.Regards,
Phillip
Some plungers have a horn that folds up inside for use on shower drains. But the horn is very important for toilets. I just had to plunge one about 50 times to clear the clog.
Bryan,Thanks again. That is what I am going to try firs thing in the AM. The plunger that we have did nothing but give me a bath. After I get the new one tomorrow, I'll be happy to 'operate it' 50 times if it will keep me from having to remove the toilet. Time will tell.Regards,
Phillip
You might want to try a "closet auger" before you pull the toilet. The closet auger is a plumber's snake that runs in a special curved pipe so that it's easier to get started down a toilet drain. You should at least be able to partially remove the plug, though if there's a hair brush or some such stuck in the gooseneck that may not dislodge, meaning that the toilet will reclog fairly quickly.But it's worth a shot.
If you try that closet auger, be very careful not to get it stuck in the toilet's P-trap (it's built-in to the toilet base). If you do, the only way out of the problem is going to be to pull the toilet anyway.
Make sure the tip of the auger snake has no rear-facing loops or projections that could hook on anything when you try to pull it out.
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
I work in a hotel where we clear half a dozen toilet clogs per day. My advice is to try a good plunger (with the horn) and if that doesn't work go buy or rent a toilet auger. 99% of the time this will get it. If the problem returns every time someone makes a do-do, then something is lodged in the toilet and the solids are catching on it. A lot of times we find toothbrushes in there. They are impossible to get out, even if you pull the toilet. At that point, the bowl is a loss and must be replaced.
There was a thread, a few months back, that suggested using a hot wire to snag plastic stuff caught in the gooseneck.
Dinosaur,Thank you for your thoughtful advice.Yes, I can see that the closet auger has a hook on the end which can hang up in there. At this point, I have not gotten that far. I have been plunging madly followed by large buckets of hot water. And, believe me, I will try the closet auger if everything else fails because I do not cherish the thought of dismantling that toilet.Thanks again,
Phillip
Dan, Thanks for the input.Last night I looked up 'closet augers' and found that they are different from the normal, everyday 'snakes' which I do own and did try last evening. I just don't believe that it even made it out of the trap. I think it just curled around in there because it came out looking like it did just that. In addition, after a few feet, I could no longer get it to go any further which told me that it was hitting the inside of the trap and never made it into the drain pipe.This AM I bought one of the plungers with the horn on it and hit it about 40-50 times. Lowe's only had the cheap, plastic plungers and I found that it was not very sturdy. This plunger was was pretty flimsy, but that is all they had.Anyway, I followed all of that with a large bucket of hot water. After dumping in the bucket of water, I did get a good 'slurp' and the end. If I get a 'failed attempt' from the boss, I may have to opt for the closet auger.Thanks again,
Phillip
A closet auger isn't very expensive -- 20-30 bucks. It's a good thing to have around. Also, of course, be on the lookout for a better plunger.
Dan,Well, I just got some good news from the boss. She said that 'the material moved just fine with a satisfying follow through', which I interpreted as a 'thumbs up.' She also told me not to get overconfident which means my status is still 'on call 24/7'.But, seriously, conditions have improved. Yeah, I could use a better plunger, but until the next 'test', I can relax. And I can well see the value in having a closet auger on hand.Thanks again,
Phillip
Phillip, there's not a delicate way to say this.Feminine products that state they're flushable --- aren't.I've had to clear several clogs due to them in the 1927 house I had. (The final solution was to let the source of such clogs clear one.)So you might mention this to the boss.A hefty dose of lye on a regular basis doesn't hurt either.Good luck,Leon Jester
Leon,I hear you, man, but I'm on 'Meals-On-Wheels' as it is. I've been in harms way before, but I'm not too sure I'd survive to tell about it again. So, I'm not gonna push my luck. And I hate drinking lye anyway. Ha, ha ...I do know what you mean, and she would if she had to, but I can just hear the conversation she'd have with her mom. Nah, I'll fix ten toilets before I have to endure that. I thought you guy's were on my side? Grin. Now, if we were talking about my x-wife, well then, that's a horse of a different color. She probably has her own 'Wally The Plumber' business. Talk about 'plumbers *utt'.I feel much better, thank you.Regards,
Phillip
I do know what you mean, and she would if she had to, but I can just hear the conversation she'd have with her mom. Nah, I'll fix ten toilets before I have to endure that.
If you're on a muny sewage system, just tell her the city Buildings Department dropped by and threatened to fine you x-gazillion dollars for flushing Tampax and Kotex into the city's wastewater treatment facility. (This is perhaps wishful thinking in your city, but there are some municipalities that have actually instituted similar bylaws.)
If you're on a private septic system, tell her how much it will cost to install a new septic system ($10- 15,000) when those same items plug up the filtering sand in which the drain tiles are laid. (This is true. Period.)
Then explain how much more pleasantly she could spend some of that money at the mall. That usually gets instant attention from most women....
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
A friend from long ago used to refer to that type of debris as 'sewer trout'. Being a fly fisherman, I was not pleased to hear such terminology, but I did get the point. In all honesty, the days of female disposables are past so that was not the issue. However, as to the habits of the previous owners, I cannot be certain. At any rate, I am pleased to say that after all the plunging with that cheap plastic plunger, the water does in fact, swirl down to the bottom of the bowl and then make a nice, loud slurp at the end. And, that, was music to my ears. Beginner's luck, I'd say.Thanks again.Phillip
Cool. Enjoy the rejuvenated throne....
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
Phillip, since the plunger worked...Do keep an eye out for a really good one. One that is not flimsy.On the best ones, the "horn" is not real easily folded back inside.When you go to use it...Keep water in the bowl.Make sure it is seated well. Keep it sealed. Do not just stab back and forth at it. The pull is just as important sometimes, as the push. Things can sometimes be dislodged if you slowly push the plunger down until it is as far down as it will go. Then quickly pull it up, creating as much suction as you can.I got a toothbrush out that way, once. Got a matchbox car out that way, another time. Cleared many clogs, and never saw what it was, because it ended up going on down after it was dislodged, as well.If it is stubborn, make good use of both the push and the pull. Work slowly, instead of just stab stab stab. A hint... Successful work is not measured by how much water ends up all over the bathroom.; )
Are we there yet ?
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Luka,Thanks for the good advice. Yes, I know I have to get a 'real' plunger. If Lowe's would have had one I would have bought it. Guess I'll have to go to somewhere else to get one. I have no doubt of their value.As to the 'push and pull', I had no idea that the pull could be of any value since my plastic wonder would not spring back after the 'plunge'. I had to physically pull it back open afterwards - each time! Anyway, it did work. And, so I was not able to go stab, stab because of this which worked in my favor.I have no idea what was obstructing the flow, but this bungalow is about 90 years old, so who knows.Regards,
Phillip
If you pulled it open each time, then you were pushing air each time.You need to get the good one. Then make sure there is plenty of water in the bowl.Once you get started, keep the water in the bowl.If you work it right you can end up getting rid of the air in a couple pushes, and from that point on, push and pull water. You'll be able to tell when you have gotten rid of the air, and have a plunger full of water on the upstroke. Keep it that way.Just keep water in the bowl. You can usually push the toilet flush handle just enough to let water run in the bowl, without starting the flush cycle completely.That water will auger what's in there, a lot faster than a bunch of air. Especially if you are making use of the pull as well as the push.Most people just get in there and stab and agitate. Expecting it to work right away, or not at all, no matter how they do it. Then give up when it doesn't work, and they have made a mess.Just like any other job, if you take your time, pay attention, and do it right, it can work faster, better and more efficiently. And can save a lot of headache when you really didn't have to pull the toilet after all.
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What Bill said. Most likely it's a partial clog (often a hairbrush or some such stuck in the "gooseneck" of the toilet bowl), but in a few cases this symptoms is due to clogged jets around the edge of the bowl and/or at the bottom that don't let the water in quickly enough.
The best way to diagnose between the two is to rapidly pour a large bucket of water into the bowl. If the water level goes down smartly and ends with a satisfying "glug" then there is probably no clog. If the water level rises and then slowly falls you have a clog.
Dan,Thanks for your input.I took your advice and dumped a large bucket of water just as you suggested. Nothing. The water level did not change so I have to believe that there is an obstruction in this drain. I know precisely what your are referring to by the 'satisfying glug' because I've had that happen when I've dumped a bucket of soapy water after mopping up.I also noted that water does flow quite rapidly from the jets at the rim of the bowl. So, I guess it's safe to say that these are not clogged at all.You and Bill were right on the money about it being clogged in some way. So, tomorrow (I can't wait), I'll rip it off and see what I can find.I truly appreciate your time and expertise. And, I will report back to both of you will my results - which you both undoubtedly both already know.Regards,
Phillip