Foil stories and R value claims
I brought the following over from another insulation thread to start this thread:
I was checking the Classifieds of a new small weekly paper for my area and found this ad for super, fantastic, unbelieveable insulation:
SAVE on HEATING COSTS- P2000, NEW high-performance Insulation, R27 performance one inch sheets- Versatile- quick, easy installation- tested, approved amazing!!
I dealt with a round of bubblepack foil covered insulation promotion from 1997-2000. The material now has pretty well no general usage in building here but is still sold in small quantities from hardware stores for wrapping pipes, etc. During that period, every time I saw a claim of high R, it was higher than the last one. The last one I saw was R16!! The stuff got better as time went on. I thought “Jeez, if I bought some now for my retirement house, it might be R 70-80 by the time I was ready to use it!! Great stuff!!” From the above ad, seems my thinking was right- foil + 1″ expanded polystyrene is now R27 and 2″ (from their manual) is R48.
Replies
Heard another foil anecdote today:
True slab-on-grade construction with RFH but only foil bubble pak as sub slab insulation. This in a part of Canada with about 8000 HDD. The owner has now disconnected the radiant floor and installed hot water radiators to help reduce his heating bill.
IIRC, you don't believe those R50 ICF claims either.
Oh ye of little faith!
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
They may be believable in your area but not in mine!!! LOL
When evacuated, multi-layered, mirrored surface insulation modules for between studs (or whole wall sections of the stuff) become commercially available, I might bite.
The claims of the radiant barrier shysters make my life real fun.I should record my spiel about it and just play it into the phone the 4 or 5 times a week I have to answer that same question.Sometimes it's hard to grit the teeth and go through it one more time... almost makes me wanna sue those guys for wasting my time. I'd think they could be sued for false claims, but I suppose they have probably worded things carefully enough to avoid that..-------------------------------------
-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
Radiant Design, Consultation, Parts Supply
http://www.NRTradiant.com
Sometimes it's hard to grit the teeth and go through it one more time
John Straube, from the U of Waterloo (and an extraordinary building scientist along the lines of Joe Lstiburek) said in a post about foil insulation at Greenlist/EBN about 5-6 years ago "It all keeps me ungainfully employed!"
... almost makes me wanna sue those guys for wasting my time. I'd think they could be sued for false claims, but I suppose they have probably worded things carefully enough to avoid that..
In a phone call about noon yesterday, I was approached about possibly doing the same. Caller offered to buy the appropriate ASTM standards. They are consulting with a lawyer also.
Very excellent! I don't know about Canada, but down here in the US I thought there were supposed to be very strict rules about R-value claims. Either they aren't as strict as I thought, or no one has bothered to sue yet..Take them to the mat (um, no pun intended), experienced!!!-------------------------------------
-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
Radiant Design, Consultation, Parts Supply
http://www.NRTradiant.com
>>"The claims of the radiant barrier shysters make my life real fun.
Here's some empirical data from a LA study. Indicates, at least in relatively mild climate, the stuff is better than nothing (though that may have been from carefully detailed installation that reduced infiltration). Also disproves any wild claims about R value for the stuff.
Apparently performed not as well as FG that cost about half as much.
Enjoy.
http://www.dnr.state.la.us/sec/execdiv/techasmt/programs/residential/reports/Zoo_Project_Final_Report.pdf
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
Edited 5/21/2006 11:24 pm ET by philarenewal
They may be believable in your area but not in mine!!! LOL
Pretty sure that claim got run out of town everywhere. I first heard it from a Habitat project leader. Almost lost my tongue, biting it to keep from laughing 'cause I wanted to hear about the rest of the house.
Here's a guy in Vermont who used (5/16" aluminized bubblepack) as his sole insulation in a rather unusual (extremely low mass) house. http://www.sover.net/~triorbtl/cottage_1.htm
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Edited 5/19/2006 8:24 am ET by VaTom
Here's a guy in Vermont who used (5/16" aluminized bubblepack) as his sole insulation in a rather unusual (extremely low mass) house.
Whew, I guess it takes all kinds to make the world go 'round!jt8
"The difference between greatness and mediocrity is often how an individual views a mistake..."-- Nelson Boswell
Be pretty boring if we all liked the same things, wouldn't it?PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
The Nova Scotia Home Builders' Association has issued a warning regarding the P2000 insulation product. I'm sure they would send you a copy if you requested it.
Also, we specialize in ICF construction and I never tell people it has a R50 rating.
Experienced,
You'd probably need a soil testing lab to find any trace of that aluminum foil after a couple of years in the alkaline environment underneath a concrete slab.
Ron