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Discussion Forum

Footings or no footings (Wisconsin)

Timberwerks | Posted in General Discussion on September 26, 2004 05:09am

Hi Guys

I will be building a 30′ x 60′ work shop on my property very soon, I go for the permit in October. My question is, will I need to pour footings for this size building or will a slab meet code requirments? A friend of mine said being in Wisconsin a snow load rating for this size building may require me to have footings. I can’t call for answers until Monday so I thought maybe someone on this forum would have some insight.

 

Thanks

Dale

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Replies

  1. FastEddie1 | Sep 26, 2004 05:22am | #1

    Wisconsin?  Nah, you don't need no stinkin' footings.  Just be sure your slab is thick enough to reach down below the frost line.

    Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!"  Then get busy and find out how to do it.  T. Roosevelt

    1. Piffin | Sep 26, 2004 06:04am | #3

      Ed, You have heard of frost protected shallow foundations haven't you? 

       

      Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

      1. FastEddie1 | Sep 26, 2004 05:23pm | #13

        Ed, You have heard of frost protected shallow foundations haven't you?  Oh, sure.  Down here we berm about an inch or so of soil against the slab, and that usually keeps the frost at bay.  I think I had to scrape frost off the windshield 6 times last winter.  But ... in Jan or Feb of 92 they actually had an ice-snow storm here, shut down the city for 2 days, musta been about a half inch of ice under 2 inches of snow.

        Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!"  Then get busy and find out how to do it.  T. Roosevelt

        1. User avater
          CapnMac | Sep 29, 2004 10:10pm | #32

          in Jan or Feb of 92 they actually had an ice-snow storm here, shut down the city for 2 days, musta been about a half inch of ice under 2 inches of snow.

          I remember that.  Austin-San Marcos-San Antonio got hit with rain, then freezing rain, and snow afterwards.  The whole state was a miserable mess, from DFW south.  From about Waco south, sleet/snow/winter mix occurs on a once-per-decade sort of frequency.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)

      2. ed2 | Sep 26, 2004 06:51pm | #16

        sure, we put down comforters under the slab

    2. JerBear | Sep 26, 2004 02:01pm | #5

      I like your style.

  2. Stuart | Sep 26, 2004 05:26am | #2

    I don't know about a 30 x 60, but I have a 24 x 40 garage in Minnesota that was built on a slab about ten years ago.  It hasn't tipped over yet.

  3. Sasquatch | Sep 26, 2004 06:08am | #4

    I recommend a concrete pad that is 50" deep.  This should solve your footing issue.

    Les Barrett Quality Construction
  4. User avater
    Taylor | Sep 26, 2004 02:18pm | #6

    Well I'm in Joisey. When we bought our house, there was carpet in the garage. Ok, a little cute, sez we. Then last spring clean-up we decided to get rid of the moldy carpet.....Yup, you guessed it, the slab is disintegrating. I'm guessing there's nothing underneath but clay. Got someone calling today to give an estimate on replacing it and maybe the whole garage.

    My one consolation is that the PO retired on a Lucent pension. Heh.

  5. WorkshopJon | Sep 26, 2004 02:37pm | #7

    "My question is, will I need to pour footings for this size building or will a slab meet code requirments?"

    Timber,

    Why don't you just go down to the inspectors office, introduce yourself, tell him what you're planning on doing, and see what he has to say....and listen.

    I've heard Mequon has tighter codes than where I live (Richfield ~15 miles away) But here, a floating monolithic slab is all that's required for that size outbuilding.

    BTW, Didn't you post a similar question over in KNOTS about 1.5 years ago?  Still have yet to break ground.......

    WSJ

    1. User avater
      Timberwerks | Sep 26, 2004 03:02pm | #8

      Yes, that was me. That was when we first bought this property. Things got busy and there was time needed to do other things and the shop was left go until now. I do plan on talking with the inspector on Monday but I thought I would get the ball rolling here over the weekend. The plat survey was just done and next week I'll go to Cedarburg lumber and have them draw up the plans. My permit meeting will be October 11 if all goes well I hope to break ground that week. In the mean time all my tools are in storage and I'm taking a break from furniture untill the shop is done. Now I'm cutting trees and splitting/selling firewood and sawmilling to pass the time and keep money coming in. 

      Take Care

      Dale

      1. WorkshopJon | Sep 26, 2004 03:28pm | #9

         My permit meeting will be October 11 ..."

        Timber,

        You actually have to schedule a meeting?  Out here, just walk in, and sketch out a rough drawing in front of the inspector, pay your ??? $40. fee (I forget the exact amount), and start building.

        "Now I'm cutting trees and splitting/selling firewood and sawmilling to pass the time and keep money coming in. "

        Just curious, What are you milling?

        WSJ

        Edited 9/26/2004 8:30 am ET by WorkshopJon

        1. User avater
          Timberwerks | Sep 26, 2004 03:43pm | #10

          Yes, permit meetings are the second and last Mondays of the month. And there needs to be at least three other people other than me applying for permits or the meeting will be set back to the next date. I need three sets of plans, 3 copies of site survey, floor plan, elevation drawings, foundation drawings etc all this for what is an oversized garage.

          I will be milling Ash and pine very soon. A friend of mine Lance Wallace http://lancerigging.com/ will be milling some Walnut soon. He has thousands of bf of Oak, Ash, Walnut, Maple all milled and dried. I use an Alaskan Mill and Lance has a Woodmizer. If you ever need milling done let me know. Or log splitting and firewood.

          Dale

          1. VaTom | Sep 26, 2004 04:20pm | #11

            I use an Alaskan Mill and Lance has a Woodmizer.

            Being your thread, it isn't really a hijack.

            Uh, you get paid to use your Alaskan?  A friend recently bought one, along with Stihl's largest.  Interesting tool, but it's awful slow compared to the 4 Woodmizers I've hired.  Unfortunately he won't let me experiment with filing angle, preferring to buy several different ground chains.  The speed, or lack thereof, would preclude my hiring anybody with an Alaskan, or at least paying enough for the operator to show up.

            Allen, my friend, talks about portability and being able to get to the log, etc., etc.  But there's so much stuff to haul, he wants to park close.  Am I missing something obvious, other than initial cost?  By the way, I watched Will Malloff use his double-head to slice a walnut log a loooong time ago.  Was very impressed, bought the book, planned on buying the unit.... until I saw a band mill work.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!

          2. User avater
            Timberwerks | Sep 26, 2004 04:37pm | #12

            I actually use the Alaskan Mill for my own lumber. Since I tend to work with large slabs this is the perfect mill for me. I use a Husqvarna 3120 and it works pretty well. I like the Alaskan Mill because I can get into difficult areas that a larger mill can't, more portable. In the Spring I will most likely get a Lucas Mill http://baileysonline.com/Mill-2.htm This is also very portable and does cut at a fast rate, it will also do cuts that a Woodmizer can't. With the Lucas mill I will contract doing milling for others but It will be more or less for milling my own lumber. I will still use my Alskan Mill to, you can't beat it for cutting large slabs.

            Take Care

            Dale

          3. VaTom | Sep 26, 2004 07:31pm | #17

            I will still use my Alskan Mill to, you can't beat it for cutting large slabs.

            Yeah, that's something I've considered.  Custom beams in particular. 

            "Need a 50'er?"  Well, I might be able to find a tree.  Interesting niche, unrelated to normal bd ft pricing.  Currently have the capacity for 22', IIRC.  We found it workable to reposition the Alaskan rail down the log with minimal degradation in the cut.  Why they don't include at least 4 lengths of dog screws I'll never know.  I'm pretty sure mine aren't the only trees with taper.  

            Thanks, I've been buying all my chainsaw stuff from Bailey's for several years.  You've seen this?  http://www.sawmill-exchange.com/   Includes Lucas. 

            Recently I've had trouble getting anybody to come out with their bandmill.  Not work I particularly enjoy or want to do for others, so I'm not going to put in a lot of money, but I'm thinking about it. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!

          4. User avater
            Timberwerks | Sep 27, 2004 02:57pm | #19

            Yes, Baileys is great to deal with. I also get a lot of supplies from http://www.madsens1.com/ The large saw dawgs are great http://www.madsens1.com/bigdog.htm I have them on my 372 and 385. Another good place to visit for all around info like saws, milling, logging is http://www.forestryforum.com/

            Take care

            Dale

          5. WorkshopJon | Sep 26, 2004 05:29pm | #14

            "I need three sets of plans, 3 copies of site survey, floor plan, elevation drawings, foundation drawings etc all this for what is an oversized garage."

            Timber,

            Glad I don't live in Mequon, good to see your tax dollars and permitting fees hard at work, LOL.

            Have you decided on a GC yet, or is this a DIY project?  Anyhow, given I've been through this myself not too long ago, if you need advice, keep posting here or e-mail me through through board.

            Also, since you and your buddy seem to own "sawmills" any leads on 24' x 12" 4/4 red oak.  I need 2 planks. and anything over 16' seems impossible to find out here without paying a super premium.  Also,  have a highly distressed large box elder (~30" dia) (one of like fifty) that I plan on cutting down.  Should potentially yield some real "interesting" patterns.  What do you think?

            Jon

          6. User avater
            Timberwerks | Sep 26, 2004 06:43pm | #15

            Hi Jon

            I'll talk to Lance and see what he has. I know he has Oak but I'm not sure of lengths. I am looking for a concrete contractor. The framing I will do my self since I was a carpenter before I started in furniture. The Box Elder will give you some nice wood for turning and some furniture projects. Box Elder is not the greatest for all projects but the grain and colors are perfect for turning projects.

            Dale

          7. WorkshopJon | Sep 28, 2004 01:12am | #20

            I'll talk to Lance and see what he has"

            Timber,

            Seriously, if he has 24' lengths, I might be interested, no rush though.  BTW, I know box elder is a crap wood, but I'm still amazed by the blood red colors I see whenever I cut one down.  Given how bad the condition of the one I referred to was, it has to yield something interesting.

            As far as a concrete sub goes, the sub who did mine was real good.  NO cracks at all after two years.  Don't know his name, but could be tracked down easy enough.

            Jon

          8. User avater
            Timberwerks | Sep 28, 2004 02:13am | #22

            Well I talked to the city of Mequon today and building on a slab is no problem. I also talked to Lance and at this time he has nothing in that legnth. He will keep me posted if anything comes up. If you happen to find a suitable Oak for milling let me know and I'll talk to Lance about milling it for you. I did find a concrete contractor that I think will work out. I'll keep you posted.

            Take Care

            Dale

  6. Virginbuild | Sep 27, 2004 07:16am | #18

    I would build footings 1 foot below recommended frostline depth and use 2" blueboard under the pored concrete floor.

    Virginbuild

    1. Piffin | Sep 28, 2004 01:37am | #21

      Why is that? For a frost protected shallow foundation, it is more important to use the foam panels around the perimeter, and to be sure that excellent drainage exists to keep water from abiding in the underlying soils. 

       

      Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

      1. gdavis62 | Sep 28, 2004 04:12am | #23

        How does the logic of a frost-protected shallow foundation work with a stand-alone unheated garage?

        If I were to do a garage of this type on a monolithic slab, I would only do it on a site with some good natural drainage.  A natural little mound would be perfect.  We would strip the duff and topsoil, and then dig more for a slab with a 12x12 haunched edge all the way around, and all the crete would go atop 6" of clean stone below.

        Then I would do some curtain drain work at the driplines to get the roof water away from the place.

        We've done some concrete-floored storage sheds like this.  My digger and crete guy calls it an "Alaskan floater" slab.

        1. Piffin | Sep 29, 2004 02:16am | #25

          Micro -

          Logic is this

          A FPSF relies half on good drainage and half on good insulation. If there is no retained moisture in the soils, then there is none to freeze, expand, and heave the foundation around.

          The other half of it is that even when some moisture exists, if it cannot freeze, it will not heave and daMmage the foundation.

          so - even if there is nop heat supplied in the building The native heat in the earth is radiating upward and using foam sheets more or less horizontally under the soil at perimeter will trap enough energy to keep soils there at the footing from freezing.

          As to doing it also under the slab, that is great too, for same reasons, but less necessary. As a general rule, a closed structure here will run about ten degrees warmer than outside, more moderate with fewer swings in temp, so th efrost does not penetrate as far under. But I assume like virgin build that there will be some heat in the building since the stated purpose of the building is a shop which would need some heat. 

           

          Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

          1. gdavis62 | Sep 29, 2004 05:05am | #29

            Missed the piece about the heat in the shop.  I thought it was a cold one.

      2. Virginbuild | Sep 28, 2004 07:25am | #24

        Hi Piffin,

        I feel honored to receive your reply, you give a lot of good guidance to us all. I agree with your comment on this case too except I would do the whole area under the floor because it is being built as a shop. I am thinking the shop will be heated and the floor will be a lot more comfortable if long hours are spent in it when winter temps get down to zero. For just a few more bucks the comfort level will be increased significantly.

        Keep up sharing your good knowledge Piffin, knowledge shared is one of the most beautiful things one can give to mankind.

        Regards,

        Virginbuild

        1. Piffin | Sep 29, 2004 02:22am | #26

          thanks. i diodn't disagree with foam under slab, but the perimetre protection comes first, IMO. Th efoam under slab is for cost savings and comfort re heat, but the perimeter foam is important to keep the integrity of the foundation, as i was expressing to Bob Dylan above. 

           

          Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

          1. Virginbuild | Sep 29, 2004 04:45am | #28

            I agree with you Piffin, the thermo break is an important first step.

            Virginbuild

  7. User avater
    Timberwerks | Sep 29, 2004 02:36am | #27

    Well I'm waiting for a bid from the concrete contractor hopefully it comes in soon. I will be using foam under the slab and the shop will be heated with forced air and a wood burning stove. One I get the specs from the contractor I will post them and see what you guys think. From what I know so far it will be a 6" tapered slab on 10" of gravel.

    Dale

  8. Shawzall | Sep 29, 2004 05:29am | #30

    There are slab designs for cold environments.  Prep your site then lay rigid foam down. By pouring over the rigid foam board you prevent frost creep.  On the slab edges dig down anadditional 18 inches and insulate as well. This addition 18 inches gives the edges of the slab more support to carry heavy loads. Use the rigid foam on the vertical to act as your form with a 2x8 on the exterior and stakes to hold it in place. You can also run rigid foam four feet away from your slab to prevent  any frost from creeping under.

    1. Piffin | Sep 29, 2004 06:48pm | #31

      That four foot perimeter has become a sort of standard.

      The University of Maine did a study on the subject, partly to find a way to keep light posts in parking lots from toppling over from frost heaving. The plows kept parking lots clean of snow so the frost could go deeper due to radiated heat loss, and I'm sure the heavy compaction of soils added to convective3 heat loss as well.

      They settled on placing a horizontal perimeter four feet out and 18" down to keep frost from wearying the post foundation. I can't recall whether this was with 1-1/2" or 2" EPS 

       

      Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

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