I have started to build a new home in central N.C. The guy i got to dig and poor my footings tells me that I don’t need re-bar in my soil type in this area. I have never heard of such a thing. I opted to use 2 #4 re-bar run continuously through out the footings and 3 #4 re-bar in the garage entrance footing. I also increased the footing size from 16×8 to 20×10. The county aproved plans did not call for re-bar. Should I also put in some down rods in every corner ? When I built my last house in south Florida, it required #5 down rods in every corner, both sides of every window and door opening and many other random areas. Can someone tell me if this is the regional norm or am I over worrying? THANKS 96 1340
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by doing the math calculations most houses do not need rebar in footing due to weight, BUT. the building codes require 2 #5 no matter what. Rebar is cheap, now is the only time you can do it, you cant put it in later.
Out here I can use (2) #4 continuous in a typical 16" x 8" footing for a two story structure. I use #5 anyway because I like the way it makes my arms feel as I bend it.
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Judging by this question and the one about framing costs, you need some good local assistance with your project. It sounds like you are an owner-builder who isn't clear on the building details or the costs. We get posts like this here frequently, and here are the standard answers:
1) We do not know what it will cost. Someone near you may be able to give somewhat comparable info, but it really doesn't apply that well even if they're one town over. Your circumstances, your plan, your lot, your personality... all those things will affect the prices that the guys you hire will charge you. And, one guy may charge a certain amount for something and do an A+ job, and another guy may charge less (or more) and do a C- job. What you need are good, solid bids from reputable tradespeople in your area to perform the work you need done. When you come in here and ask for a price, the standard answer is $99,550.17. It's an inside joke, a way of telling you that there is no way you will get a meaningful answer.
2) We do not know how it should be done. The foundations I do are monolithic footing and stemwall with lots of rebar in them. Never heard of a down bar myself. I'm in a seismic zone. A lot of this country is not, and there is no rebar. A lot of people are using block for stemwalls, or basement walls, or precast walls, or whatever. Only someone very local to you will be able to comment accurately--like a good foundation contractor working with an engineered plan set.
This is not to say that you can't get some idea of what to go for from reading this site, but don't ask us to tell you how to build your house. The fact that you started it means you'd better be ready to finish it. I doubt there is much relationship between FL and NC in terms of building. You will be best off with a designer, contractor, architect.... someone.... to consult for you locally as you build.
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I can't wait till he gets to the rough wiring!
Where do I need to locate the electric meter, how high should the meter be, does the utility provide the meter base or do I, is 200 amps enough power, can I put a subpanel in the kitchen or a bathroom?
What's a Ufer grounding electrode, are multiwire circuits a good idea, should I run nothing but AWG 12 for branch circuits, should I combine lighitng and receptacle outlets on circuits or not?
And on and on....
Try Rex Caludwell's book. Get the local power company specifications. Hire a local electrician as a consultant.
Cliff
the meter need to be no higher than the average man looking straight at it.. 2+3=7
should I combine lighitng and receptacle outlets on circuits or not? no, if you pop a circuit breaker, you still have light to get out. 2+3=7
On a question like this, you should be asking your architect. Or was this a mail order design?
Like David said, you are off to a funky start. You get plans, submit them to the county, get another opinion from the mason, then ignore what's on the plans, what the county seemingly allows and what the mason told you, and you substitute what you want in terms of the rebar and ask a bunch of other people you don't know what's the right thing to do... Likewise, you started construction and don't really know what the cost should be. .This isn't exactly a professional way to build a house.
You may get it done, but unless you figure out what you want, and what is really necessary you are going to wind up with problems. Contractors aren't going to want everything in a state of flux as you make up your mind, and change orders are expensive.
No offense intended. Good luck.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
I've heard concrete subs tell me all my life that rebar is not needed.
I've also seen plenty of cracked footings.
IMO. only a hack will pour a footing or a wall without rebar. it's cheap' it's easy, and it does a lot of good.
Your soil there is clay. That is expansive and plastice when it gets wet. You definitely need the rebar. Learn to mis-trust anyone who tells you to lower your standards. Standards for construction are already low enough in Carolina and Georgia
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"Should I also put in some down rods in every corner ? When I built my last house in south Florida, it required #5 down rods in every corner, both sides of every window and door opening and many other random areas. Can someone tell me if this is the regional norm or am I over worrying?"
Down rods for WHAT?
Purely guessing maybe you are building a concrete block house?
The type of constructions makes lots of differences in the details.
Likewise so does the location. Some areas are hot and dry, other hot and wet and other cold and wet. Some areas have hurincanes, other tornado, other floods, other earthquakes.
So there is a variation is what details are needed in different parts of the country.
And did you make provisions for attaching a the grounding electrode wire to the footer rebar. Current electrical code requires that, but different area have adopted different versions.
Bill, he is reading but not answering.His other thread is requesting costs to frame, so I assume he is framing this, and the verticle rod is for corners of block wall for a crawl space. He is excavating and pouring a footer on a lot that has approx a three foot drop. So if all my assumptions are right, he should use ladder wythe in the courses in addition to the verticle rebar. He'll be pouring some cavities anyway to use anchor bolts.
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I like your and Piffin's answer. Do I need rebar in footing/foundation system? Tell me what the footing sits on first, and what's sitting on it second, and I could probably answer. Otherwise, the OP is asking for an answer at Delphi, or he might as well.
"A job well done is its own reward. Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"
Ufers' are in the 2005 NEC, but not all localities have adopted that portion yet.
Out in the boonies, where I am, the local inspector reccomends adoption of everything, and since knowone will argue with him, he gets his way. In Jefferson Co. the ufer clause will be adopted in August, I think. It met a lot of resistance early on, from builders who thought they had to have an electrician on site durring the foundation stage.
If he has already poured the footings, chances are he did not stup out any thing for a ufer connection.
Oops!
Dave
Although NC has adopted the NEC 2005 UFER grounds are not commonly used in residential construction - at least not in the counties and municipalities in which I build.
If I understand what I have read that the 2003 first made Ufer's mandator and 2005 was modified to read that is was required if the rebar was "available".There was one discussion a month or two ago where someone inspector was making him add a Ufer after the fact.
I bet that was a PITA.
Lucky me, our BI and EI are the same guy. Footings on residences get inspected prior to the pour. Accessory building, they don't care.
dave
I have seen only one installation where the ground was tied to the rebar. This was a pad for an emergency generator. The stranded grounding conductor was clamped to the bottom rebar of the pad. Given that the pad had very shallow footings and was on a thick base of gravel, I can't image that there was too much actual conductivity to the earth. There is a discussion of ufer grounding that I found interesting at:http://www.iccsafe.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=11;t=000927
I live and build in the Raleigh area. NC code does not require rebar unless soil conditions warrant it and then only when specified by a soils engineer. There is sandy soil, red clay, gray clay, silty, etc, etc soil all within 30 miles of here and each have different bearing capacities. Part of being a builder includes being able to recognize soil conditions by color and texture and doing some basic tests. So, do you need rebar? Depends. I'd estimate that 80% of the houses here don't get rebar in the footings, assuming it is a crawl space house. Basements often do. Building inspectors determine if conditions require a soils engineer.
Here, most foundation plans will say something like "2000 PSF soil bearing capacity is assumed" - hence the reason that rebar is not specified on the plans.
Down rods? what are those? - obviously I can guess, but you get my drift...
The width of footers depends on what is going on top of them and again on soil bearing capacity. Solid masonry houses require wider footings, for example. Also, all the footer guys I know around here use a 20" width as a minimum, just based on the common bucket size on their excavators and backhoes. Did you pay extra for the 20" footing? :-)
The thickness of footers depends on how tall the house is to be. Your 10" thick footers will take up to 3 stories. Let me guess - it's a one story house? :-)
Another thought is that 10 years ago 2500 PSI concrete was the norm (code minimum) but now 3000 psi is the norm - or at least for custom houses (thinking over to the Pulte thread).
Do yourself a favor - go get yourself a NC residential code book. It's about $65. Here is a link http://www.ncdoi.com/OSFM/Engineering/engineering_contacts.asp Do a search on that page for "book sales" or similar. Be aware that the current code book will be out of date for houses permitted after July though (I think it's July...) Get the real thing - not some generic from a book store. Don't worry, it's not written in Chinese - just engineereese. :-) After a few 'intro' chapters, the chapters are laid out in the order that you build the house so it's not too hard to find stuff. About 1/2 the book will not pertain to what you are doing, so you are already half way thorough it when you buy it :-) Use the codes as a minimum set of standards, and don't expect building inspectors to catch all code violations.
You are gonna have to depend on your tradesmen some too. No way you can learn all the building, plumbing, electrical, HVAC code even in a few years.
Same thing in Va. Very few use rebar.
Shell:
Let me ask you this... I have read here at BT and in construction mags about expansive clay soils in Texas, etc, post tentioned slabs and the like. While we do have some bad clays here (light grey or light orange) that require engineered footings, generally, red clay is considered a very sutible footer subbase and to my knowledge is not expansive. Soils engineers are pleased to see red clay, as am I, and no rebar or other special provisions are necessary.
What are your thoughts?
BTW - I looked at your profile. A number of years ago, I lived in VA Beach for about a year....
You may be right Matt, but here in Oklahoma we invented red clay and let me tell you were the foundation repair capitol of America. We have had the same foundation repair commercial running for as long as I can remember.
Rebar is required here but still there is foundation failure. A builder in nearby Sapulpa a few years ago was putting rebar in as required, getting his inspections so he could pour, then pulling the rebar out before pouring. He said the rebar wasn't needed despite the local code and it was saving a few hundred dollars per house. Cost him much more than that after the suit.
I agree with Piffen, there already is to much degrade in the quality of homes nowadays. I like to build "Code Plus", it's just a better way to think. Labor doesn't change if you substitute to the next better grade of framing. And spacing 16" o.c. when 24" o.c. doesnt' add very much. So why wouldn't you at least add a few more rebar to a footing.
It's just a better way to think.
Edited 3/21/2006 9:09 am by jagwah
Sounds like rebar in footers should be required in your area for sure.
if it's clay
It is expansive.All it needs is water. Some more, some less
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I am from Ontario, Canada. Some times people are forced to build on engineered soil, in this case, rebar is mandatory in the footings, the size would have to be determined by an engineer. In another case, if you are going 3 stories, you need to step up the footing size, and the foundation wall width, and install rebar. Plus, remember, footings should be poured on un-disturbed soil, that is, if it rains after you have built the footings, you will have to scrape/dig out the loose soil in the footing forms.
I break concrete everyday. a concrete clyinder in compression will break at 3000 psi. a concrete beam in triple point loading at 700 psi. the concrete beam is closer in reality to a footing. why would you not put rebar in a footing.. 2+3=7
Hey ! Don't get me wrong, I don't know the cost of rebar, but, if you have , sure, put it in. Here, in Ontario, Canada, the Ontario Building Code is just a standard set of rules, and municipalities are aloud to improve upon it, and make it their local requirement. We have a book that also illustrates better building practices, which exceeds the code, and some builders adhere to it. To be specific, if the engineer says "install it", then of course... Personally, I would place rebar in the footing at least.
Basically, concrete is great for compressive loads and lousy under tension. Rebar is placed in concrete to add tensile strength. It will also help hold things together if a foundation cracks.
Check your building codes for rebar requirements. They will tell you how much you need, what size you need, and how it should be spaced.
Heck of a name....
While we are all willing to offer advise on specific problems, the guys here get annoyed when they feel that someone not qualified to GC a project is trying to do so w/ a constant stream of free advise from them. In other words......like calling your dentist and asking for advise on how to do a filling/root canal/extraction.
In construction there are no "NORMAL SITUATIONS"....all house/site combinations are unique, and should be addressed as such by competent local professionals.
That being said.....
Rebar is not always there for "normal conditions".....it is there to reinforce the footing as a beam should some of the soil beneath it "washout". Kinda like insurance.
I'm with piffin and others that say "do it". Rebar can only be added to the footings now.
10 X 20 footings might be overkill......but hey. You seem to want to err on the "safe side", that's good.
"down rods" or vertical reinforcing (rebars in a conc filled block core to create a "pilaster") are normally used for tall...8'+, or long...30' + walls, or to address lateral pressure on a wall (such as a site that slopes down to the house"). Might be overkill...but you should ask your foundation guy.
When in doubt....Like it says on blueprints........"local codes shall prevail."
What I was asking in my original question was, Is this a regional norm (no re-bar) and should I go with what I'm familiar with back S. Fl. (lots of re-bar)? I'm not a licenced G.C., but I am a licenced A.C. contractor in Florida. I've also worked as a carpenter during the winters in Fl. when AC work was slow. I built my last home in Homestead,Fl after hurricane Andrew and did everything myself from the form and steel work all the way to building the kitchen/bathroom cabinets (draws,doors) included). The only things I didn't do was the block work,plumbing, and pulling of the wire. I did bend and install all the E.M.T. conduit for the entire house. I even put the metal roof on the house and wrap around porch. I did not list my previous endeavors because I wasn't asking, "Am I capable ?" . I was just in shock at the extreme differences in the codes in this new region. While I was waiting for my plans to be drawn up and county approval of the plans I took a job framing to become familiar with local building practices. Thanks for your info and time and I am going to put plenty of re-bar in even though it isn't required. It's very cheap insurance. Thanks 96 1340
Copy that 961340.......
Don't know about the "regional norm" part, however even though there are only 50 states in the US, there are over 2,000 code enforcement districts.
Each local district/township/county operates based on it's inspectors' familiarity w/ various versions of any one of a variety of codes- CABO, BOCA, IBC, etc etc, then there is the additional "layer" of codes that come from the state "fire prevention codes", and EPA codes, and OSHA codes, etc, etc.
What flies in one area, might not even be able to own wings in another.
When in doubt....find out (which you did), but when it comes to doing things the correct, or "code+" way.....let common sense, and your inspectors opinion, guide you.
Good luck w/your project.
10 4
I live in NC, and as far as I know, excluding rebar isn't region-normal. There are earthquakes here, for example, and a big fault-line around Greensboro, iir.
I just happened to have the earthquake book at hand, and the big one in your area was Charleston, SC, Aug 31, 1886. The Richter magnitude would have been in the 6.5 to 7.8 range.
The geologists say that an earthquake there would produce higher intensities of shaking over a larger area for a give magnitude than here in CA. Buildings there aren't generally designed for seismic loads. Earthquakes may be less likely there than here, but if one happened, it could be a lot worse.
To build for earthquake resistance, you need both rebar to hold the concrete together, and tie downs to hold the ends of the shear walls onto the concrete. Ordinary anchor bolts thru the mudsill aren't strong enough for that.
-- J.S.
That's why I like the buildings I do...we get those tie-downs automatically...there's no choice...fully connected building by default.
>> That's why I like the buildings I do... <<
What type of buildings do you build?
http://cloudhidden.org . Also, http://photos.itsa.info
Not only are they good for earthquakes, the dome shape performs much better in high wind.
-- J.S.
we do lots of additions near or around your area and we usually use (2) #4's with no downrods. steel isn't required by code unless the engineer or architect calls for it in the plan, which they usually do.