? for owners of tankless hot water
I’m in the Northeast (New York) and currently have a 40 gallon gas hot water heater. Am thinking of going tankless mainly to recoup some of the “floor” space so I can then install a water softener unit. Right now, the hot water heater is kinda in a “corner” and the back is against a concrete base of a fireplace, the left side is a regular 2×4 wall, the right side is “near” the furnace. I can’t put the water softener in front of the hot water heater (okay I probably could, but it would make replacing the hot water heater a chore because I’d have to disconnect the water softener, etc.)
What I’d like to get is a Bosh Aquastar 240 FX NG and “mount” it on the cement base of the fireplace that’s upstairs. (it’s a cinder block base). The CURRENT hot water heater has I believe a 3″ duct that goes into this cinder block base and up the flue, and the furnace has maybe a 5″ or 6″ (never really measured it) duct into the cinder block base and up a separate flue.
Now, I have 3/4″ copper pipes for water supply. NG is at least 1″ (maybe bigger?) coming in (obviously it’s reduced to what appears to be 1/2″ for the furnace and hot water heater and dryer).
Ceiling height in basement is 7′ however.
According to website it looks like I’d have to go with a power vent option and possibly cut a hole through the foundation (not sure what that is exactly called, but it’s a wooden beam that goes on top of the concrete cinder block walls in the basement)? Or somehow finda way to put a 4″ vent into the chimney?
Is it “legal” to mount one of these puppies on the cinder block wall of the fireplace? (I can’t imagine why it wouldn’t be, but just asking).
I’ve heard that unless you crank the hot water (on the “appliance” that you’re using) that it won’t trigger the unit to heat the water? (ie, it needs a minimum gpm flow before heating the water?) Then, this unit has a certain max. gpm it can output at a certain water temperature, yes? Enough supposedly to run two “major” items at a time? (don’t usually run two showers at a time, but it does happen. but lots of times run dishwasher and washing machine at same time)
Side note: i do have access to the current hot water heater (if the “front” were blocked) by walking around the furnace to get to the “right” side of the water heater. It’s just that the duct for the furnace is about 4-5′ high, so I have to duck under it, and you’d probably have to tilt the water heater to get it out (if you couldn’t get to the front of it). In case that matters.
–Kevin
Replies
You might have a good reason for going with an expensive Tankless option. You should be aware that they are expensive but if you need the space, it might be your only option. Beware that they give limited heating capacity so you have a definite limitation on the flow rate of hot water they can generate. If you live in a cold climate, that rate will likely be smaller in the winter.
Bill
Hmm. I think I've pretty well researched the GPM issue. Shower takes 2.5 and the 240 can supposedly delivery a 60 degree rise at 5.3 GPM.
My concerns are about venting (just checked the clearance spec's and I should be fine). IF I can't vent in the flue, I have to vent outside, but supposedly code doesn't allow for ANY vent (this include gas dryers too?) to be within 4 feet of any opening? My whole house has nothing but windows around it. don't know if I could even find such a spot for it. Not sure how difficult it is to 'expand' the pipe opening to use the existing chimney flue.
And "combustion" space. It says the 240 needs like 1,000 sq. feet with 8' ceilings. Yet they say you can install it in a closet?!!! (pretty big closet if you ask me). Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but my whole basement isn't 1,000 sq feet.
--Kevin
My guess is that expanding the flue will be really difficult and or expensive if it is in a chimney. Be careful with the gpm, where do you live. If you live in areas that get 40 degree water in the winter, your showers could be pretty cold. I suggest you carefully read the paper at http://www.stateind.com/new/Tankless_WhitePaper.pdf. It should give you some help with the performance and cost issues.
I am not surprised that you are finding the tankless literature confusing...I have found it to be full of half-truths. For example, they are easy to install...however, you are seeing the joys of having to put in a huge vent. They also say you can save up to 1/3 of the energy...not true when compared against high performance storage water heaters. Even if it could, it would save less than $80/yr...with that savings, it will take a long time to justify a $600 heater. Furthermore, they tell you that the unit is designed for 20 year life but none have much of a guarrsntee. I could tell you that all of our heaters are designed for 35 years but that would mean nothing without a guarrantee.
Your application...shortage of space, may be the only time I would recommend one but if you can not vent it, I think you are out of luck.
I wish you success,
Bill
I'm not an expert on tankless, but I did install the same/similiar model Aquastar in my own home. If it's the exact same model, (think mine was 240 FX?) it comes with power vent built in. BTW, there not too expensive, I got mine off of Ebay for about $600 including shipping. For gas line, 240 model requires 3/4" gas pipe minimum, may require a bigger line if over a certain length in run. In use, no problem supplying two fixtures/appliances at once, but it is a measure of temperature rise that counts, not just temperature. Example, The warm setting on the washing machine is quite a bit less warm, (more luke warm) in winter than in summer.
As for mounting on fireplace cinder block, unable to help you there, might give a call to your local building inspector. Mounting surface should be non-combustable, though, such as sheetrock, etc.
hope that helps a bit
GC
As an aside, we recently significantly improved our hot water situation by buying one of those high efficiency front loading washers. It is really amazing how much less water they consume. In addition, they have a super-spin cycle and have cut drying times by 40%. I figure our savings at around $15/month. This is a problem you can attack two different ways, either generate the hot water more inexpensively, or utilize it more efficiently. As both the cost of water and heating the water will rise significantly in the near future, this approach made more sense to us.
Which one did you buy (hi-efficiency front-loader)?
There was a recent thread on best brand / how bad maytag sucks, I didn't pay too much attention but my washer crapped out this weekend. Trying to decide if premium price is worth it for front loader even though don't have budget for it...
remodeler
FWIW, I put in a smaller Aquastar in my home 10+ years ago, and in general I've been very happy with its performance.
That said, it has NOT been maintenance free. Every couple/several years I've needed to fix/adjust/or less often, replace something. I'd expect their reliablity is even better these days, but based on my experience, I wouldn't recommend them for people who want a maintenance free heater. Their tech people have always been very helpful--though not available on week-ends. <G>
It's true they are not supposed to turn on until a certain flow is met, but mine no longer functions that way, and will turn on at much lower rates. Not sure I want to fix that. <G>
HTH
Thon
Kevin,
Just because the existing water heater's 3-inch vent pipe enters your masonry chimney at a 3-inch thimble does not mean the flue inside the chimney is necessarily 3-inch. Pull out the pipe and examine your flue. You might have an 8"x8" flue tile in there that could handle the Aquastar. But of course you may not.
I have the Bosch 125BX (I think - the one with no pilot). Mine has the power vent adapter out through the wall, which I think is somewhat unfortunate since one of the nice things about gas heaters is that they work without electricity.
It seems to have no trouble raising the water for our shower from the cold temp (45ish, I think) up to a proper temp. It takes a bit more fiddling during the shower because the temp you get is dependant on the flow rate, and the flow rate is dependant on where you set the shower valve. Turn up the hot, and it gets hotter, but after you use up the water between the pipe and the heater, you get a slight loss. Takes a bit of getting used to.
Note that these heaters take a lot of air to run. My installation required two 6" screened openings to supply the makeup air, and there's no option to feed directly from outside air.
I also have to worry about the heater freezing, since there's no standing pilot.
I had an Aquastar for a couple of years until it broke one last time and I gave up on it. It wasn't a terrible experience, and you certainly have a situation for which it might be a good solution.
As far as minimum flow, yes, that is a quirk. The shower and appliances all worked fine, but if I went to a faucet to wash my hands the heater would not come on until the hot water was turned on full blast. Then it was too hot, so the cold water needed to be turned on full blast. Then water splashed all over. I got tired of explaining to my guests how to get it all to work.
But, it certainly was nice to take a half hour shower and not loose temperature.
The final time it broke the thermostat went bad and I got steam out of the shower. It melted the CPVC pipe and I had to rip out walls to replace my water piping from the basement up to the second floor bathroom. The contractor who sold me the unit (who was an idiot) could not fix the water heater. So, I put in a conventional water heater. I think my experience is rare, though.
Well we had a home show over the weekend here so I got to ask several vendors (including the Controlled Energy people)
Basically the ONLY reason I need the 240 (as opposed to the 125) is due to the fact that 50% of the time there are two showers running at the same time. (and I'm not even married yet with kids).
I asked about the 4" venting and yes, no way around that. BUT they did say they can mount it on vinyl siding, providing they use a wood "platform" (or whatever you want to call it) to shield the vinyl siding, but that there was a good possiblity I could use the current flue (only one way to find out). A free estimate/inspection was offered by all the vendors so when we thaw out up here I'll take them up on it.
Now, for the combustion air. I was told that the 240 most definitely needs the 1,000 sq ft with 8' ceilings, BUT if you don't have that they can install a 4" "intake" with backvent thingy (so it doesn't freeze in the winter) to makeup for the air.
So I guess I'll just have 3 places come over look at things and take it from there.
An alternative (at least to my space problem) is I just saw that Lowe's has a small water softener unit (they don't list who makes it though) that looks kinda "short" and squatty that I could more easily fit in elsewhere.
Here's hoping I can get a tankless (filled up hot tub last night and ran out of hot water before the thing was even done.). Guess if I can't get a tankless I'll have to get an in-line water heater from Jacuzzi.
Although I DO find it odd that there's only a 5-year warranty on the 240. (doesn't give me a warm fuzzy when they say it'll last 15-25 years and then only warranty it for 5)
--Kevin
I hear a lot of people complaining about the capacity of the 125 unit and accordingly move over to the 240.
I encourage you to rethink that.
The 125 starts up at .5 GPM. The 240, I believe, requires .6. That's 20% more.
How often is the second shower going to occur at the SAME time as the first? Simply suggesting to your guest that they start up their's as soon as you finish yours is in my opinion a better course of action than building up an over capacity situation and the corresponding consequences. Note: I did not say the washing machine and diswasher at the same time. Your washing machine may have it's own booster heater as does most dishwashers.
40 degree incoming water? When I lived in Michigan, we got 55 degree all year round. Unless you live up there by Dave Thomas in Alaska, I would verify that.
I used the 125 (with pilot) and had great experiences. It did bug me a bit about the relatively high flow needed to wash one's hands. But that was the ONLY thing that bugged me. I also found that that problem was minimized by a faucet that did not aerate as opposed to one that did (less splashing).
In the past, I was far more bugged about not having enough hot water to provide for the second shower (as the tank had been rather depleted by then). I never had that problem with the 125, even though I had a double headed shower.
In reality, the tankless units require a small change in lifestyle to make them what they should be. Some people can make that change, others need a couple of 70 gallon beasts in series.
But don't ever compromise on the venting. Especially if it's being mounted inside of your living envelope. When talking with your building inspector, you'll find he's a bit more focused on the make up air necessary. The 240 uses quite a few BTU's. Without that make up, you'll pull combustion gases out of your furnace.
Not to derail the main point of the question, but if you already have a boiler as your source of heat, it's worth considering
utilizing that as your source of hotwater by adding an indirect hotwater heating loop and a well insulated storage tank.
(Many use a hotwater heater tank for this purpose.)
Aquastars draw quite a bit of BTUs when they are running dispite the advantages of running only when there is demand for hotwater.
The advantages have to be weighed very carefully if there is a boiler in the house already.
No boiler present.
I'm waiting until the winter passes through (which looks like it'll be a while) and then have some of the vendors come out and get their opinions.
I suppose other options are to get a 125 unit and use a small 20gallon holding tank? in the event that I need to run two showers at the same time. (I think most "normal" families of 4-5 would use two showers at the same time providing they can). I know when I was growing up, my sister took a shower in her bathroom at the same time I had to use my own bathroom.
Or I just get a 50 gallon hot water heater and slap in an in-line hot water heater on the jacuzzi tub. If I can't get the Aquastar
(but I'd REALLY like a tankless one).
Also, can anyone tell me the "average" cost to have a 125 or a 240 installed? I see the 125's are about $450 (for the unit). The 240 I see new on Ebay for about 700 or so.
At the home show one of the vendors said the 125 installed for about $1000??? (I know labor is high, but even at $100/hour do they take about 5 hours to install?)
You can order any model through Lowes.
This info came from CEC (?), the supplier, and the prices are ok.
This, ofcourse, is only if you are installing it yourself.
You will probably need to get a permit if a plumber gets involved for the gas line work.
Based on information I've gathered, installing a sediment filter before the unit is not a bad idea.
It took my plumber about 9 hours to do my install.
Granted, it was a custom fit and he had to modify a number of lines. And in the middle of his work, he had to stop and wait for me to install the backing plywood and 5/8 sheet rock. It was his first tankless install and he did a very nice job.
If it is going to cost $1000 installed, that is about 2 or 3 storage heaters. Why do it? I do not understand the economics?
Bill
If you use pressure balancing valves, you won't get shot with cold water. The pressure just drops at the shower head as the pressure drops from the other appliance drawing off hot water.
>If it is going to cost $1000 installed, that is about 2 or 3 storage heaters. Why do >it? I do not understand the economics?
I suppose some people get sucked in by the endless hot water. I don't see this really being true because the only instant-ons that make sense to me are gas, and if you have a gas tanked hwh you nearly never run out of hot water.
I dished the $500 out for the aquastar for one reason: Floor space! juggling the hwh space, furnace to the attic, and taking out a closet gave me enough reason for an add'l full bath. The thing is amazingly small. I prefer the the tanked variety though all things being equal.
remodeler
"if you have a gas tanked hwh you nearly never run out of hot water."
I don't understand this statement. I regularly run out of hot water on my 40 gal. gas tanked hwh. Unfortunately, floor space doesn't allow for a 50 gal., and my amazingly adept 1 yr old means I can't crank it up so a little goes a long way. So what do you mean here? Is there something I could change so that I 'nearly never run out of hot water' ?
I consider a tankless about every year for the last 5, then I remember all of the negatives I've read about here, think about trying to vent the darn thing properly, and resign myself to never having enough hot water.
When you get ready to replace you heater do some checking of the specs. Some units have larger burners and higher recovery rates than others.
>"if you have a gas tanked hwh you nearly never run out of hot water."
>I don't understand this statement. I regularly run out of hot water on my 40 gal. gas tanked hwh.
I'm sorry to hear that. This is just my experience. I grew up with electric tanked hwh and it seemed there was never enough hot water to finish a shower. and with a 40-50 gas hwh over the years it has always seemed like it lasted forever.
-but- I have a baby due in june and if I still had the tanked I might change my opinion on that. I've been a bachelor 'till a year ago.
and my unrepentent opinon on tankless - the ONLY value to owning one is the saving in floor space. On all other counts they suck. I can't tell on the utility cost yet. My 125 has adequate pressure / flow yet does not have the volume of hot water to appliances my old tanked had.
remodeler
Just a few random and disordered thoughts. What about a pre-conditioned or post-conditioned storage tank? In pre-conditioned, water could be brought to a higher temp by ambiant air, say from 50 to 70 degrees in the wintertime which would reduce the heating load on the point-source heater. I've often been tempted just to run a loop of copper up into the attic during the summer to extract and pre-heat water with that energy. Definitely cheaper than a full blown solar hookup. Conversely, one could put a well insulated electric 40 gallon tank after the point-source heater. Set the electric at 120-130 degrees, and you have a big buffer which would cut down on rapid temperature changes, but also the economy of having the water actually heated by gas and not electric. Perhaps even a 6 or 12 gallon model that runs on 120V would be sufficient as a buffer tank. I currently have my electric wrapped in 2 of those blankets and I suspect there is negligible storage heat loss.
" Why do it? I do not understand the economics?"
Depending on the lifestyle of the users and the cost of NG/LP, a tankless water heater will pay for itself in energy savings in a few years. I've never heard of one that cost $1k, mine cost about $700, as I recall.
At best a tankless heater will save 33% of your annual water heating costs. Since the average person spends $150/yr to heat water with gas, that means you may save $50/yr. It will take a whole lot of years to pay back the investment. Then you also have to consider the costs of the required annual maintanence calls as well.
I still do not understand the economics!
"At best a tankless heater will save 33% of your annual water heating costs. Since the average person spends $150/yr to heat water with gas, that means you may save $50/yr"
I don't know where you got these numbers or what your personal experience is with a tankless water heater. You may be right, but I estimate that I save more than 1/3. More like 50%, just my estimate. Never had to have a service call yet, though I have only had mine for 2 years. Not really a whole lot that would require service, a gas valve, an igniter and a flow switch. With the exception of the flow switch, not any different from any other gas burning appliance.
I get my numbers by using the Energy Factors published by the Department of Energy. These allow one to calculate the expected annual cost of operation. Comparing the best of the the tankless water heaters vs. the best of the storage heaters you get an Energy Factor comparision of 0.83 vs. 0.64 which translates into an annual cost savings of about $45 using average energy prices. I don't know how you come up with 50% but I don't believe it is consistent with the published data by GAMA and DOE. (Remember, you have to compare the tankless heaters against the new storage heaters for a fair comparison).
Every unit I have looked at has recommended an annual servicing by a trained technician. Just because you have not had that done does not necessarily mean it is not necessary for good long term performance.
And as we compare the "best" vs the "best", you would have to consider that you cannot buy the best storage water heater for $400, and that you would have to have any water heater serviced anually, if you followed that manufacturuer's recommendations. Maintenance for the two options are not different. You certainly cannot buy "2 or 3" storage water heaters for the price of an Aquastar 125 model.
My savings estimate is based on how much I spend on my gas bills taking into account how much my furnace has been running over that same period of time, before I had a tankless and since I have installed a tankless. However, as I said in my original post on this, that it does depend on how you use hot water. The way I use hot water makes the tankless save me more than if I was home and used hot water frequenly throughout the day. I use hot water for a few minutes each morning most days of the week. Maintaining a 40 gallon tank of 140 or 160 degree water in a 55 degree basement for the other 23 1/2 hours was a waste. Based on my usage patterns and my lifestyle, my $600 (I checked my records and the cost was just over $600) Aquastar will have paid for itself in about 6 years. Will it last that long? I bet $600 that it will. Other people's milage may vary. The cost you referenced is not realistic and the government generic comparison values are just that, not based in reality. To be fair, use real numbers.
Edited 2/28/2003 8:06:37 AM ET by Tim
For true energy numbers you have to look at the energy lable for the appliances your are considering (the yellow tag on the appliance tested for the dept of energy). I cannot find any 50 gallon water heaters with 150 annual cost on them in my area so I wonder where that number was found. My local gas company figure is currently about 235 annnually which is general what well insulated units are showing on the yellow tags. My latest unit is a tkd-20 direct vent with out side combustion air (paid 1200 for the unit, not installed) with the tax credits installing it my self it cost about 700. It will take me about 3.5 years to pay for difference, 50 gallon with stand is about 350. This unit is my 7th unit and I have not had any major problems (1st unit was bought in 1981 for my boat.
I have filled my hot tub and taken a shower the only noticeable difference was a slight reduction in water flow. I can not talk about the aquastar system from experience but have often heard complaints about quality and service from other owners. I have owned the takaki, rinnai, and copeel (no longer in business and I think I miss spelled it was my first for the boat)
As to servicing, My furnace people include checking it with the furnace annually for an extra $10, "Do you drain that tank twice a year"
Remember if you need to replace your waterheater reduce the cost of buying a tank from the tankless, I often here why do it from plumbers who do not intstall them nor have they ever, I would think they would want to the plumbers here who have learned how can install them it about the same time it takes to install a direct vent tanked system and they are charging 300 more for the tankless install.
ps I am a energy anylsis for the gas company and a general contractor who specializes in energy efficent houses
Dual,
You said "For true energy numbers you have to look at the energy lable ..." I disagree with this. If someone was considering buying a car like yours and asked you what kind of fuel milage you get, would you tell the actual miles per gallon you get while driving this car or would you tell what the sticker on the window said your milage might be? Would you trust the governmental bureaucrat's "test" data numbers or actual usage numbers from someone using the appliance in their home?
The sticker on the window or on the water heater, or anything else is not real; it is estimated values for comparison only. Actual usage from a real installation is the only data that IS real. The rest is just guesses.
The nonsense about $150/year suposedly came from the energy sticker someone read at the homestore or something like that. A slanted argument against the tankless water heater.
"ps I am a energy anylsis for the gas company and a general contractor who specializes in energy efficent houses".
So do you sell energy efficient houses based soley on your claims of energy efficiency or do you refer them to people who live in energy efficient homes that you have built and have actula results to brag about? Or owuld you rather them not? Real people's energy costs is where the rubber meets the road.
The price quoted was "about" $1,000 for an Aquastar 125 WITH installation.
Yes, I've seen the 240 on eBay for probably around 700-800, but obviously WITHOUT installation.
--Kevin
Nor shipping!
Home Despot carries the Aquastars. They are just as reasonable a price and all the advice you can stand from a guy with an apron.Jack of all trades and master of none - you got a problem with that?
We are using a TK1 tagai tankless to supply all our hot water including heating our 1200 square foot house hydronically. I personally plumbed and vented this( I am female). It was simple. We had used the system the first year in the house with an electric hot water tank until I could get the tankless hooked up.
Comparing last year's costs to this years( this year we are in the house full time, last year only part time), we have cut our costs in half. I can shower all I want , run all the appliances and never run out of water. I will never go back to the tank.
Jill
Economics have little to do with it in my opinion.
I have 2 teens, an 11 year old (that avoids the shower) my wife & me. Every freakin morning 3 out of 4 of us take a shower. My wife, one son, the other, and then me. Add to that the dishwasher or the washing machine and the water flow can run out the 50 gallon we have. I get a lot of cool showers.
I have no continuous WH yet. But the last one is 25 years old so the time is near. But in 3 years I'm back to just DW & the youngest. I can't see the water load being that large at that time. 5 years ago it would have made sense. Despite the benefit I probably won't make that change. We'll see...Jack of all trades and master of none - you got a problem with that?
You will be better off financially by buying a tank-type heater. If you run out of water using a 50 gal then a 75 gal would seem to be a logical choice. If you are convinced that the tankless sales pitch is right for you, then do it...but remember there can be challenges installing them and they do recommend annual maintanence by a trained techician.
I'm not ready yet but come summer I'll probably be in the market. Not sure yet.Jack of all trades and master of none - you got a problem with that?
Two main reasons:
1) Floor space
2) I have a 5.5 x 36 Jacuzzi (yes, it's actually made by jacuzzi) bathtub, that I can never fill without running out of hot water. coupled with the fact it'll take about an hour for the hot water heater to recover.
--Kevin
be aware that WH costs will nearly double this summer due to new design requirements
Tell us more.
Starting this summer all water heaters must be manufactured in a manner that prevents them from igniting flamable vapors outside the water heater. Manufacturers are hesitant to give us pricing yet. I am seeing estimates of 15% to 100% price increases depending on the method used to meet the standards and the manufacturer. The cheapest price increase will probably be the best design. It seems like this method will be the most reliable and trouble free. But we will see.
on July 1st. new design regulations will go into effect which will increase the cost of gas water heaters. While the pricing is not yet known, I believe increase will not nearly double the price. But there will be price increase on units made after July 1st which means units that reach the field in late July or early August will probably be the new design.
Bill
Kevin,
I have an Aquastar 125 made for LP with a power vent option.
To answer you questions:
The clearance to combustibles on the "back" of these is 0, so if you have a suitable means to mount it to a cinder block wall, it is legal and safe to do so.
The flow required to fire the unit is very small and adjustable. Out of habit, I turn the hot water up until it gets to the faucet, then down as necessary.
I use mine regularly with two showers at the same time with plenty of hot water, though transients require adjustments more so than with a tank water heater.
The 125 is vented with a 5" gravity vent or a 4" power vent. Download the installation manual for the 240 and see what it says.
Thanks for the information. I think I saw that the 125 can provide 3.5 gpm at 55 degree rise?
You must have a water saving shower head (I'm not sure what my Moen showers are at). I think those will crank the water down to 1.5 gpm? I think standard shower head is 2.5 gpm?
Generally speaking, washing machine and possibly dishwasher might be on at same time (but almost never wash in "hot" except for whites, and the washer fills fairly quickly). Dishwasher is a Whirlpool and I always use the water heat option (kill those germs).
My main concern is two showers at a given time.
If the 125 will work for two at a time (generally neither of us take "hot" showers at a time. I suppose I could measure the water temp and see what happens).
I'll give the guys at CEC a call (they're just across the "border" in Vermont).
--Kevin
I think concerns with on-demand gas water heaters not being able to keep up is ignoring the fact that most folks already don't use hotwater
from several sources at the same time with conventional heaters.
We wouldn't start a load of wash and step into the shower if we know the shower will turn colder while the washer is loading hotwater.
Many homes, with the way it is piped, will not allow hotwater to run simultaneously from many outlets no matter how large the conventional hotwater tank is.
Same thing with showers - how many actually see two used at the same time with conventional hotwater heaters ?
We already have usage habits that are suited for switching to on-demand without having to adjust too much.
I don't remember the specific numbers for the temperature rise at flow, but its good enough. One shower head is a Speakman, rated at 3.5 GPM max, the other is a new Shower Massage type and it is definitely low flow, until I get around to "fixxing" it.
The biggest problem that I have found is that if your in the shower and the washing machine starts to fill with hot or warm water, you will get a shock of cold water and will have to do some adjusting. Then, if you still in the shower when it stops filling, well this is why they make anti-scald valves. At a steady state with two "normal" hot water using devices in service, the 125 can barely keep up, but it can keep up.