I am building a woodworking shop and was planning on covering the walls with MDF and particleboard. Is all MDF and particleboard that is sold today free of formaldehyde? Will I get sick and die from formaldehyde fume poisoning in my new shop before I finish my first project?
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Replies
Air it out and you are good to go!!
Not according to the ARB!"California Air Resources Board (CARB) UpdateJune 15th, 2007"The Air Resources Board (ARB) is developing an airborne toxics control measure (ATCM) to reduce formaldehyde emissions from composite wood products such as hardwood plywood, particleboard, medium density fiberboard, and also furniture and other finished products with composite wood parts.""The ARB evaluated formaldehyde exposure in California and found that one of the major sources of exposure is from inhalation of formaldehyde emitted from formaldehyde resin containing composite wood products. The International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC) reclassified formaldehyde from "probably carcinogenic to humans" to "carcinogenic to humans" in 2004, based on the increased risk of nasopharyngeal cancer. Formaldehyde was also designated as a toxic air contaminant (TAC) in California in 1992 with no safe level of exposure. State law requires ARB to take action to reduce human exposure to all TACs"The California Air Regulatory Board (CARB) voted 8-0 on April 26, 2007 to put in place the country’s tightest formaldehyde emissions limits from composite wood products. Implementation dates for the new ATCM (Air Toxics Control Measure) range from 2009 to 2012, depending on the board product. (See related story) The ATCM specifies a two-phase schedule (P1 and P2), with emissions ceilings and compliance dates for particleboard (PB), MDF, thin MDF and hardwood plywood (veneer-core and composite-core) (HWPW-VC, HWPW-CC). The regulation targets urea formaldehyde (UF), the most used resin for these products. It exempts structural engineered wood products made with lower-emitting adhesives such as phenol formaldehyde. Exempt products include PS 1 plywood, PS 2 structural panels, and ASTM D5055 I-joists. CARB studies estimate that composite wood products account for 5 percent of formaldehyde emissions.Industry Concerns
Costs, compliance, testing and certification requirements — and the over-arching question of enforcement — are industry concerns as the regulation heads for implementation. The ability to accurately and adequately inspect imported board and finished product is another concern. CARB commissioners directed staff to report back to them next year on the workability of the enforcement measures. CARB technical and enforcement staffers emphasize their long experience with consumer products. At the same time, the new regulation’s requirement of third-party certification is something new in the agency’s regulatory approach.Testing Concerns
Trade groups and manufacturers emphasize the potential for testing inaccuracies at the low P2 emissions ceilings. In agreement on P1 limits, industry and CARB are just 0.01 ppm apart for P2 particleboard limits and 0.02 ppm apart for MDF. CARB surprised HPVA and its members, Altman says, a few days before the hearing by shifting P2 compliance for HWPW-VC up one year, to 2010 from 2011. The decision was based on talks with overseas and domestic board and resin companies indicating availability of UF alternatives for veneer-core plywood. The emission caps will be telegraphed all along the enforcement chain of custody, from the board manufacturer to finished goods and from distribution to the retail level. Many in the industry feel that CARB didn’t fully consider the complexity of the finished products in writing the regulation. That could leave room for non-compliant products, domestic or imported, to slip through.CARB staff is now developing language to address modifications made to the rule as a result of the hearing and the preceding talks between industry and the agency. The agency expects to set a mid-summer 15-day public comment period to address these changes. Modifications included clarifications on third-party certifications, and the definition of architectural plywood. A new option was also added for reduced inspections of products that incorporate a chemical that binds to UF and cuts emissions.California Air Resources Board - http://www.arb.ca.gov/homepage.htm "
has anyone told them that this has been used for years without adverse effects? Leave it to our socialistic state to regulate it!
Air the house out and you should not have a problem.
Edited 7/23/2008 5:33 pm ET by frammer52
Sorry to deflate you but I have real world first hand experience with this. One does not need a genetic disposition to it either. One dose at rates well above safe levels is enough to sensitize some people it is true, others can and do get deathly ill from a long term exposure to much lower levels however.
I build for a client whose entire family was sensitized by staying in a manufactured home for one winter in Oregon.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
There's a beer in the Dominincan Republic called 'El Presidente' which I first experienced while sailing tugboats for Crowley Towing out of San Juan. Stuff has a nice brisk tang to it, and the natives serve it ice, ice cold. Just the thing when it's 95ºF and yer twiddling yer thumbs dockside for 2 days while the molasses barge gets filled up.
Yuh. That 'tang' is from the formaldehyde they use as a preservative to lengthen shelf life in that hot climate. You wanna talk about the hangover from hell...?
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
I will be the first to admit that some of the environmental sensitivity stuff is overblown.
But that does not detract from the facts in a lot of the cases. I used to think it was all hooeyy until I worked for this family and then also got sick from being in a house with new carpet that tested way over the amounts allowed.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
The family must have had a predisposition to it. I have lived in a mibile home, double wide, that had a smell from it for about 30 days after purchasing it. When you open it up the smell disapates, rapidly.
If anyone should be alergic it is I. I am alergic to just about everything you can think of.
I am not saying some people aren't alergic, but most homes if not all, have some involved in the making of the home. Like I said, open the house up, install fans and it disapates rapidly.
Just because you didn't get allergic to it doesn't mean others don't - it just means that there is one substance that your immune system doesn't overreact to.
I spent a year dipped in formalin doing research with no ill effects. Fast forward 10 years and OSB laid me out, even though it was on a ROOF, which is pretty much as well-ventilated as you can get. How do I know it was the OSB? Later when laying a floor I was wheezing and on benadryl until the OSB was covered with tar paper and finish floor.
Nope. Family lived in the home 6 months. Moved out, left every window and door open for 1 YEAR, had EPA test the home and the levels were way beyond healthy levels. 2 years later EPA tested again and it was still over safe limits. Family ended up with life long serious health issues and won a major $ amount law suit against the manufacturer.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
You know I was helping my partner unload some new plywood
a month or so ago and I had a pretty serious allergic reaction.
Well I didn't die or anything but full on sneezing, running nose,
watery eyes- the works.
Now, I have hay fever but that's about it.
I'm gonna have to say that stuffs not good for ya.
Back before the stuff was regulated I got very sick while crawling baseboards in a 6000 ft. house . All nylon carpet I was sick for several weeks and remember feeling ill late the first afternoon I laid the base board.
I would feel better when I was at home or outside the house but once back inside I would get nauseous again.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
We sent the stuff back, and ordered plywood
not from China.
No problem with the new stuff.
I am curious if you know who the manufacturer was.We lived next door to a LP OSB plant when daughter was a baby.
She was almost a crib death statistic. Wive suddenly got an urge that she needed to go check on her and she was not breathing and blue face.We have always believed it was LP and the gasses from the plant. They continually played games with the EPA - having things running nice and clean when the inspectors showed up, but dumping during the night and other times. They ran that game at both the Kremmling and Delta/Olathe plants until pressure from EPA and local citizens finally closed them down.Overall, frammer is right that most materials are now made with appropriate controls, and ageing quickly dissipates the junk thru offgassing but there are some companies who's corp philosophy seems to be to flaunt the rules and get by with whatever they can, people be damned.Tjhat is one reason I speak out against LP whenever I can. They have had so many product failures because I believe they have formulas that can only produce long lasting product by using excessive toxins. They have to adjust the outputs when they are being inspected so the product that rolls out is not the same one day to the next. We could buy lifts of "seconds" all day long at that plant during the week after an inspection.
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Unfortunately I do not.
I do remember that the manufactured home was a top of the line model , purchased from a plant located here in Oregon . The owner was a Chiro and had knowledge and awareness of the effects of formaldehyde prior to the situation. Part of his case was that he researched the manufacturer for exactly this reason had been assured that the modulars they produced were safe to then applicable EPA standards.
Once the situation was uncovered for what it was and he started his lawsuit it became something of a class action suit against the manufacturer, as other cases were found that involved the same manufacturer.
This all occurred prior 1982 or so as that is the year we built his new house. This was just about the time the seriousness of the sensitivity issue and health issues were coming to light and actions were being taken to bring the levels down.
The house that was built for the family could contain nothing that was manufactured with formaldehyde. The list of common building materials that couldn't be used ran over 6 closely typed pages of materials.It was amazing to me just how pervasive the applications of the formaldehyde were.
I remember things like no nylon anything, no plastics/plastic laminates, no fiberglass shower or tubs, no drywall, almost every paint/finish available at the time, no PT that couldn't be sealed off, some concrete additives, no plywood, no particle/press board, no vinyl flooring goods and only one specific brand of fiberglass insulation. It made building the house an exercise in the use of historic materials and methods.
Shortly after that the allowed levels of the gas emissions and content of formaldehyde in materials were severely reduced for all building materials. While todays domestic products still have the problem to some extent it is nothing like it was during the 70's and early 80's when walking into a new house or manufactured building would be enough to bring tears to anyone eyes. On the other hand I know carps who suddenly developed allergic reactions to Western Red Cedar, can't even be around the stuff if it is being cut sanded etc. so I do know that it is a mystery why some react to environmental components are toxic to some but not to others.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Mary was born in '84 so the safety level standards were in place by then. LP knew exactly what they were doing in trying to skirt things.I get a severe reaction to Port Orford Cedar after using it for years, suddenly I can't tolerate it. It is a sensitivity reaction and not an alergy. A lot of people use the word allergy for a lot of things that it does not apply to, but the results of an asthma reaction can actually be worse than some allergic reactions.but the thing with allergies is that they can get worse unpredictably or disappear altogether not always with rhyme or reason
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I agree sensitivity and allergic reactions aren't the same. I also have personal experience with several chemicals that have caused reactions , but not consistently , same with allergic reactions.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
So teh question is where do we find the good stuff and how do you determine it is UF free? I hate MDF with a passion and don't use it but soem people really like the fact that is 1/2 as expensive as Poplar which I woudl rather use.
The MDF buggers are the worse. For cabinet boxes I prefer to use 3/4" baltic ply anyone know if this stuff is gonna kill 50 years from now?ML
I don't know about now , but we were able to locate information clearing houses back then that had lists of all the "approved" (meaning tested for content) building materials.
I would bet that a quick google on the subject matter of chemical sensitivity to building materials will bring up hundreds if not thousands of places with information. The problem is sorting it all out.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Count me among those highly allergic to western red cedar.
And on the other side of the coin, I worked for American Air Filter Corp.,way back in my youth They manufactered fiberglass filters of every imaginable type. I worked in the spinning department where UF was sprayed on the f/g blankets as we spun tem. I later worked atpulling those same blankets and feeding them into the 450*F curring oven. Still later I was the oven operator or one of the rollup/ packagers at the other end of the oven, handling the curred media.
We all suffered some type of respiratory destress at some time or another, but none of became sensitized to the stuff. I'm not sure if any developed cancer from the high level of exposure we recieved. It is likely that many that worked there much longer than me may have.
That stuff was so thicKin the air in that plant that your eyes would burn sometimes, and there was a blue haze hanging around the ovens.
Yet, I am not overly sensitive to UF out gassing from wood products some 40 years later.
Don't get me wrong. The stuff is bad, but sensitivity is an individual thing. Some will experience adverse effects at very low exposure levels, others, like myself,are not bothered at all by four or five time the levels emittied from wood products.
CARB is right. We should all ditch glued wood products and instead build structures from blocks of straw and manure. The second ingredient gives off some ammonia for awhile, but the greenies at CARB will be so orgasmic they won't even notice.
Couldn't agree more. Not sure how they can justify their existence.ML
All this information is interesting but means little , there seems to be no , repeat no, regulations on plywood and products from China and other countries .
The USA wants us to have the ability to remain competitive with our business practices so they allow it to enter with no regulations enforced .
To our knowledge the sheets are to be stamped made in China and that they may contain formaldehyde and it may cause cancer , have any of you seen this information ?
Up to 100 times the safe level of Formaldehyde have been registered from the Chinaply . The EPA apparently an agency to be concerned said they had had no indoor air quality standards in the past only out door environmental concerns of air quality . It is interesting enough that the FEMA / Katrina trailers have been closed by who ???? EPA I believe , hmmm double standards .
The bottom line is of course money , when Joe homeowner goes to the big box for a few sheets of nice plywood he can get domestic Birch or Maple for like $55-60 a sheet or Chinaply for about $35 per sheet and it looks good .
A fellow cabinet maker ran a job with about 20 sheets of a china core product and came down with a lung condition that now prevents him from working in a shop any longer . This stuff is real , like a bee sting not everyone will get sick and die but some will , and as long as the distribution continues to blindly lead consumers to buy by price without the required hazard warnings harm will be done .
The worst part in my mind of this whole mess is the fact that China does not allow the junk to be sold there , it does not meet their health standards , imagine that !
Every time a ship full of chinaply comes to dock someone makes a million dollars , hey it may even be Amerikan dollars who own the Asian mills.
One mill called Columbia forest products has come out with Fromaldehyde free product and says it costs no more to produce .
dusty , who boycotts chinaply
Edited 7/23/2008 11:34 pm ET by oldusty
Edited 7/24/2008 12:39 am ET by oldusty
Yet one more reason not to use Chinaply. I tried it on one job and told my lumberyard never again.It will wrinkle like a Ripples potatoe chip and th e top veneer is so thin you barely touch it with sandpaper and it is gone thru. Good thing that job was a paint finish
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Formaldehyde, at the levels you could possibly experience, would only be a problem if you have a genetic condition that sensitizes you. Hard to know if that's the case, but the condition is pretty rare.
Just heard on the news that folks that got put up in manufactured housing supplied by FEMA after the big blow are suing for exposure to foumaldehyde.
Let's not confuse the issue with facts!
And FEMA won't pay, can't sue the gov. without their approval.
I guess you could sue, but you would never collect!
Put the OSB up, then immediately paint it with shellac, Kilz, or Binz.
You should have no problems.
Trying to reason with someone who just wants to argue or insult, is not a reasonable pursuit.
Click here for access to the Woodshed Tavern
Couple of thoughts.
A few years ago somebody asked about formedahyde off-gassing. After quoting from a book I had about the hazards, (copyright around 2001), someone else posted that the info was out of date, and he had worked with manufacturers to reduce the amount in finished panels.
Anyway, I think Luka has the key if you are worried. Paint or seal the surface. That was the recommendation in a different air quality book I had checked a few years back. But I wouldn't use Kilz. I've gotten pretty looped using that stuff in an enclosed space. (Probably OK once it is dried). Binz is what the school system uses so as to not affect the students.
My wife has been clinically tested that she is allergic to formeldahyde, (along with a lot of other chemicals). Yet we used 1/2" particle board as a temporary finished floor in our house. we stickered 23 sheets in the shop for about 30 days, cut it into 2'x2' squares, and laid it like tile with a 3/4" wood strip in between. 3 coats of varnish, and cranked up the heat to "cook" the nasties out. She has had less problems with that, than with even 2 or 3 year old carpeting.
Tried some wheatboard shelving on a shop project, but it molded when the humidity got real high.
Bowz
>> Is all MDF and particleboard that is sold today free of formaldehyde? <<
No.
There is an MDF called "Medex" which is formaldehyde free - only reason I know that is because of some museum work. Needed to have a form'de free surface for display of old silver. Google "Medex" and look for the dealer nearest you.
There are some other brands / manufacturers, but Medex was specced and that's what they got.
>> Will I get sick and die from formaldehyde fume poisoning in my new shop before I finish my first project?<<
I doubt it.
What is your current house subfloor? Sheathing? Roof deck? If any of these are OSB - chances are, it is not formaldehyde free.
Jim
About a month ago I loaded about 6 sheets of OSB into my van where it got stored it overnight. I jumped into the van the next morning and almost passed out behind the wheel. I now have great respect for an issue that I never took very seriously.
Now that they cleared that issue up ....what's your next question?