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Discussion Forum

Forming garage stemwalls

andy_engel | Posted in Construction Techniques on March 2, 2009 02:08am

I’m planning to build a garage, finally. The frostline is 42 in., and the site is pretty flat. I figure a 16 in. wide x 10 in. thick footing with an 8 in. x 48 in. stemwall will do the trick for the foundation. Here’s my dilemma. First, I don’t want to hire it out because I like doing the work, and there are only about 6 people on the planet I trust to work on my jobs. And none of them are concrete guys.

So, I’m thinking that I either use 3/4 in. Advantech and make my forms, reusing the Advantech for the second floor deck because my grandparents were Scottish and it’s genetically difficult for me to spend money, or I use ICFs. I’ve done a couple of ICF foundations, and know that would save a ton of time. But it’s that money thing again. But the Advantech forms would take a bunch of time I don’t have, and waste quite a bit of bracing lumber.

Anybody got a better idea?

Andy

“Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.” Robert A. Heinlein (or maybe Mark Twain)

“Get off your dead

and on your dying feet.” Mom

“Everything not forbidden is compulsory.” T.H. White, The Once and Future King

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Replies

  1. User avater
    McDesign | Mar 02, 2009 02:34am | #1

    I'd do the ICFs in a heartbeat.  Re-using the old form sheets for flooring is always a dusty mess.

    If you place carefully, you can skip bracing - I have, with a 4' high 20x32 addition.  We used a line pump though, so it wasn't a huge amount of flow volume.

    Forrest

  2. brownbagg | Mar 02, 2009 02:37am | #2

    dig the footer the width you need to a depth you need, that be 16 inch wide by 58 inches. drive some scrap rebar the elevation of the footer top. drop your rebar in the hole and then pour your concrete, vibration till th etop of the rebar poke his head out.

  3. User avater
    Matt | Mar 02, 2009 02:59am | #3

    You might want to look into a frost protected shallow footing.  A quick Google yielded this web page. 

    Personally, for a regular stem wall situation I would dig and pour your footings, and then come up out of the ground with 8" block.  Then fill the foundation interior with stone and place slab.   That would be the cheapest way.  Here masons get ~$1.50 a block and the 8" block themselves might be about the same price.    Labor is probably more where you live though...

    BTW - we wouldn't even bother forming the footings.  Depends on your soil type though.  Footings for that application should be 8" thick x 20" wide.

    Personally, I think using ICFs for that application would be a waste. 

    1. andy_engel | Mar 02, 2009 04:05pm | #11

      I'd love to do frost protected shallow footings, but the IRC only allows them for heated buildings. I don't intend to heat this all the time.Andy

      "Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein (or maybe Mark Twain)

      "Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom

      "Everything not forbidden is compulsory." T.H. White, The Once and Future King

      1. andy_engel | Mar 02, 2009 04:16pm | #12

        Thanks for the replies. Lots of regional differences. To them: Brownbag: If I could dig a straight sided trench footing, I would also skip the forms. But that doesn't happen in my part of New England. You know those stone walls we're famous for? For example, I own 13 acres, and there's over half a mile of stone walls on them. I'll get enough stone from this little excavation to build the damn garage. No way will that result in a straight sided trench.Dino: You're building to a different code. Eight inches is fine here. Whoever posted about ICFs: Yeah, but the money. My poor Scottish grandparents spinning in their graves and no way to use the motive power...Mike: What spacing were you using on the whalers?Andy

        "Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein (or maybe Mark Twain)

        "Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom

        "Everything not forbidden is compulsory." T.H. White, The Once and Future King

        1. MikeSmith | Mar 02, 2009 08:17pm | #13

          andy.... it's  been  a long  time .. but :

          i'd  predrill  my  1/2  x 4 x 8  panels  for  the  snap ties

           

          the  sheets  wil be  horizontal for  your  4'  wall.... from the   left..

          a vertical row  of  holes @   12"  ....36"...... 60"..... 84"

          @  2" from  the  bottom.... 16"  ....32"..... 46"

          then  your  horizontal  2x4 whalers  will wind  up  16"  oc..

          and  your  vertical   2x4  whaler  clamps  could  probably  be  4'  oc

           

          or  2'oc  if  you want 

           

          you  can  rent  the  form  dogs  where  you  buy  the  snap  ties

          or  you   can  take  a ride  and  borrow  my  dogs

          tack  everything in place... insert  your  snap ties  on the  inside

          and  stand  up  your  outside.. insert  the  snap ties..

            the  horizontal  whalers  lie  on the  ties   loose ...  occasional  tacks

          with  an  8d  duplex  nail...    lap  your   joints  with the  whalers

          lap  your  corners  too...  16d  duplex  nails  will  hold  it all together

          then  stand  up  your  2x4  whaler clamps  and   loosley    put  your  dogs on to  clamp  them

           

           tighten  everything  up

          use  brute  force  to  get things  into alignment  (  or a good  pry bar )

          shoot  your  grade..  snap  your  grade  lines.......  use  6d bright  nails  for  grade.

          or....  have  Cadioli  come  visit  for   aweek.... let him  earn  his   keep

          see  you  at  JLC  I  hope

          pour  and thump.. don't  vibrate  unless you  know  what  you're  doing

           Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

          1. andy_engel | Mar 02, 2009 08:20pm | #14

            Thanks, Mike. I talked to Rick Arnold about this, and he's got me thinking about trying to get my local AHJ to approve a rubble trench foundation. I like that idea a lot, and it's held up Taliesin for a century or so.Andy

            "Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein (or maybe Mark Twain)

            "Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom

            "Everything not forbidden is compulsory." T.H. White, The Once and Future King

          2. MikeSmith | Mar 02, 2009 08:33pm | #15

            i  like  rubble  trench... 

             on the  interior,  about  a  foot  of  bankrun  or  processed  gravel

            then  a monolithic  thickened  edge   slab  on the  rubble   trench  footing

             Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

          3. andy_engel | Mar 02, 2009 08:34pm | #16

            Exactly. But where is that in the IRC? I don't see it. It used to be detailed in the CABO book.Andy

            "Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein (or maybe Mark Twain)

            "Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom

            "Everything not forbidden is compulsory." T.H. White, The Once and Future King

          4. MikeSmith | Mar 02, 2009 11:19pm | #18

            i  don't know  where it is ... or   if it is,  in the IRC

            but  it  might  be  worth  while   having  an  engineer  stamp  the alternative  foundation.  Talk  it  over  with  your  BI and  see  what  they  think .

             Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

          5. andy_engel | Mar 03, 2009 01:01am | #19

            I'll do that. God knows he's not busy right now. I also emailed my engineer about it. I'd love to do a rubble trench. That's my idea of a practical footing. Fast, cheap, and out of control. Wait, that's a movie. Fast, cheap, and effective. That's a motto.See you in Providence. One of these years I'll be able to join you for lunch, but not this one. How about a beer after?Andy

            "Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein (or maybe Mark Twain)

            "Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom

            "Everything not forbidden is compulsory." T.H. White, The Once and Future King

          6. T3 | Mar 03, 2009 02:56am | #21

            andy,up here in ct. where are frost is 48'' out here some are done trench,block and rebar. they will hold up and last longer than us. this method works well.and not as pricey as other ways.although the other ways are very good.good luck. and remember alittle overkill won't hurt,it just makes it a little stronger. also watch out for surrounding sloped areas. when your done have a shot of that good old scottish whiskey.your gps' im sure would approve,at that point.

          7. andy_engel | Mar 03, 2009 04:12am | #23

            Where in CT are you? You must be further north than me. Our frost depth is only 42 in.Andy

            "Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein (or maybe Mark Twain)

            "Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom

            "Everything not forbidden is compulsory." T.H. White, The Once and Future King

          8. Catskinner | Mar 03, 2009 04:10am | #22

            I don't think rubble trench is in the IRC, but if you can get an engineer to stamp it you're good to go. Not a reason in the world why it shouldn't get stamped.I'm all for rubble trench. Works great. Good thing of it, or half the stuff around here would have fallen down 200 years ago.One improvement; after you dig the trench, line it with geotextile, and then put the rock in. It's a much stronger and more durable job that way. Keeps the rock where it is supposed to be and likewise for the dirt.I'd also check into topping the rubble with CLSM aka lean fill. A lot cheaper than concrete and easier to work with. I don't know if the engineer will go for that, but in your seismic zone I see no reason why not.

          9. andy_engel | Mar 03, 2009 04:17am | #25

            You've talked about lean fill, but I've only ever heard of it being used on highway jobs around here. Doubt the local AHJ is familiar. And I don't want to throw him too many curves. I'm planning to heat the place with a water heater, so let's not push our luck.Andy

            "Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein (or maybe Mark Twain)

            "Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom

            "Everything not forbidden is compulsory." T.H. White, The Once and Future King

          10. Catskinner | Mar 04, 2009 02:54am | #26

            <<. . . so let's not push our luck.>>While I appreciate the inherent wisdom of that, I have also come to realize that as The Boss,-- pushing my luck-- flying off the handle-- riding people's ^sses, and-- jumping to conclusionsis the only exercise I get anymore.

          11. andy_engel | Mar 04, 2009 03:24pm | #27

            That and spinning your dog around..Andy

            "Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein (or maybe Mark Twain)

            "Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom

            "Everything not forbidden is compulsory." T.H. White, The Once and Future King

          12. Catskinner | Mar 04, 2009 04:15pm | #29

            <G>

  4. User avater
    Dinosaur | Mar 02, 2009 04:12am | #4

    Andy--

    Footings should  be 24" wide 'cause frost walls at that depth are 12" thick. You can use old scaffolding planks or 2x10s for the footing forms, but rent some real forms for the frost wall. Yeah you could make your own forms outta whatever, but it'll take you forever and when you get done you're gonna have a bunch of concrete-encrusted wood with lotsa holes in it from the wire ties. Not worth it....

    Dinosaur

    How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not brought
    low by this? For thine evil pales before that which
    foolish men call Justice....

  5. cliffy | Mar 02, 2009 04:16am | #5

    Didn't you do a nice article on ICF's a couple of years ago?   You could do another with your shop as the subject. Sell the article to FHB or JLC and now the whole works is one nice big tax deduction.

    Have a good day

    Cliffy



    Edited 3/1/2009 8:32 pm ET by cliffy

  6. fingersandtoes | Mar 02, 2009 04:18am | #6

    Form it like everyone here does for all foundations. Make your footings out of 2x8s with 1"x3"s every 3 ft top and bottom to tie them together. Use 1"x8" for the foundation walls nailed to 2"x4" uprights at 3 ft on centre. Level the forms with a 2'x4" whaler on the outside and pour the whole thing at once. Even a slow guy like me would be able to form it up in a weekend.

    Once you are done, you can strip the forms and use them as sheathing on the garage. Next to no waste, no rentals and easily adapts to uneven excavations.

    1. brownbagg | Mar 02, 2009 05:00am | #7

      its werid how different parts of the country do thing. I see a lot of form footers here on this site, but out of 25 years in the business here, I have seen less than three, formed and maybe 10,000 un formed. alot of time , material and effort for something that will never be seen once done.

      1. fingersandtoes | Mar 02, 2009 05:36am | #8

        No real rhyme or reason to it - just regional peculiarities I guess.

        we form our footings because they support the rest of the wall's formwork, as we pour everything in one go.

  7. MikeSmith | Mar 02, 2009 06:10am | #9

    i'd use 1/2   ply  and reuse it for the wall sheathing

     

     

    also... with a 48 "  form  .. assume a 44 - 45"  wall.... not a 48

     

    so... 42 "  frost depth .. less 10"  footing... you need 32"  to grade  + 8" to bottom of sheathing... it  all works

    you can buy a box of snap ties for 8" wall  and use 2x4 whalers ... we used to do it all the tme... but the last time we did it was when cadioli was working with us  on  9-11-

    8" wall.....1/2'  is plenty for formwork

    Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
  8. User avater
    EricPaulson | Mar 02, 2009 02:17pm | #10

    If a monolithic "Alaskan: slab pour is out of the question I would do 8" block. You will need to over-dig though to have room to work. 2-3 guys should be able to knock out the block work in a day handily.

    You probably want to get some insulation up against the block and under the floor to keep your feet a bit warmer in the winter.

     

  9. rlrefalo | Mar 02, 2009 09:10pm | #17

    I used to own a garage building that had a concrete foundation poured in a narrow (maybe 12 inch) trench to grade then one or two course of block laid on top. Built in 1940's or so.  Was still holding up fine into 2004.

    You'd need a good excavator and the right type soil. Rocky or sandy won't work. I think I'd use 2x6 form around the top edge leveled and straightened.

    Rich

  10. BoJangles | Mar 03, 2009 02:43am | #20

    Can you lay block?  It's good exercise and something you can do yourself.

    1. andy_engel | Mar 03, 2009 04:14am | #24

      Sure, I've laid lots of block. But that was when I was younger and back pain was wasn't even hull-high on the horizon. Not doing that any more.Andy

      "Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein (or maybe Mark Twain)

      "Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom

      "Everything not forbidden is compulsory." T.H. White, The Once and Future King

      1. BoJangles | Mar 04, 2009 04:06pm | #28

        I said that 20 years ago but I'm still doing it!  It always seems to be the quickest & cheapest alternative for us. 

        We usually knock off a normal garage frostwall in one day and then head home and say " we're getting too old for this..that's the last one.....we're going to have to hire this out pretty soon"

        Now that things are slower, there will be all kinds of union block layers looking for work.

        ICF's are just too expensive to be using them for frostwalls and by the time you are done messing with making your own forms, you could have hired someone and be working on the walls.

        1. andy_engel | Mar 06, 2009 12:09am | #30

          I might have just gotten some leftover ICFs for this, which pleases me. Otherwise, I priced them out last night. It would have been crazy expensive.I'm pretty much set on doing a frost protected shallow footing now. The extra foam insulation will only cost about $500, and it'll save at least twice that much in concrete. Plus, I'll only need to dig out about a foot and a half. I'm not getting in any trench and laying block, no way, no how.Andy

          "Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein (or maybe Mark Twain)

          "Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom

          "Everything not forbidden is compulsory." T.H. White, The Once and Future King

          1. JohnCarroll | Mar 06, 2009 01:43am | #31

            I'm not getting in any trench and laying block, no way, no how.

            C'mon Andy. It should be no problem for a young guy like you. I did this one two years ago, when I was 57:

            http://www.jlconline.com/cgi-bin/jlconline.storefront/49b050f9095d38fc27170a32100a0617/UserTemplate/82?s=49b050f9095d38fc27170a32100a0617&c=caf5cd1293bc0af98a01763ad2c2e814&p=1

            If you're willing to play in the mud, it's the cheapest route. One of the things that I like about block is that you can run the block up to floor level, then use the block as a form for the concrete floor. Then you can continue up with the stem wall to get the frame up off the ground. For aesthetics, I continued up in brick on this job.

          2. frammer52 | Mar 06, 2009 03:20am | #32

            John, that is fine, laying blocks, when you only have to lay 2 courses to get to ground level.  I think he has to be down 4"!!!!

          3. JohnCarroll | Mar 06, 2009 03:37am | #33

            That means he can have twice as much fun! ;)

          4. frammer52 | Mar 06, 2009 04:03am | #34

            I would lay the blocks or do as he said.  I find that laying blocks isn't that bad>G<

          5. andy_engel | Mar 06, 2009 03:55pm | #35

            John, while you're ten years older than me, you've lived a clean and virtuous life. And Frammer is right - I have to go down 4 feet. Plus, my back has been giving me trouble since I was 29 (Right about when my oldest kid was born - Is there a causal relationship going on there, I wonder?) Given these concerns, I'm willing to trade a little money for the time and pain savings. And it's a very little bit of money as I would insulate below the slab anyway. The FPSF is only going to cost an extra $600 in foam beyond what I would have bought. I doubt I could buy the block and concrete for the footings for that money. Even valuing my time at $0 per hour, I think this is actually going to save some cash.Andy

            "Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein (or maybe Mark Twain)

            "Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom

            "Everything not forbidden is compulsory." T.H. White, The Once and Future King

          6. MikeSmith | Mar 06, 2009 04:04pm | #36

            what's the foam spec you'll be using ?we typically would go to Branch River and buy 2 lb/cf Performguard .... probably 2"Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

          7. andy_engel | Mar 06, 2009 04:26pm | #37

            The ASCE design spec calls for a minimum 2 pcf foam, and what I'm finding locally is all 2.5 pcf. It's amazing - the bearing capacity of that foam exceeds that of the soil. I can use a 12 in. perimeter footing, and the two end point loads only need 24 in. footers. The only oversize footing I'm doing is for a center column that has a larger tributary area. And that only needs to be 32 in. square.Andy

            "Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein (or maybe Mark Twain)

            "Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom

            "Everything not forbidden is compulsory." T.H. White, The Once and Future King

          8. JohnCarroll | Mar 06, 2009 07:52pm | #38

            Andy,

            The foundation in the article was in North Carolina. The bottom of the footing there was 18-in down, which made the block work pretty easy. I've also done quite a few block foundations in Maryland (and one in Delaware) where the footing went down 32-in. The extra two courses weren't too bad but they did add to the price of the job. Where you live another course would be required. Four courses below ground! I have to admit that that would start to get old.

            My own preference for block is influenced by the fact that I own a mixer, mortar pans, wheelbarrows and all the hand tools. I've done quite a bit of masonry work in my life and still enjoy it (something I can't say about a lot of the work I do). I've been lucky with my back.  

            In the 1980s I lived for 3 years in Hampton, NH. From experience, I have to say that you pay a premium for the privilege of freezing your butt off for four months each year. Everything about building a house in New Hampshire--starting with the mean, rocky soil and ending with the ice dam-prone roof--was more difficult and more expensive than building in North Carolina or Maryland.

            When in New Hamshire I knew a couple of people who built shallow, freeze protected foundations for shops. They seemed like a great idea but I never tried it myself.

            I won't be able to make JLC this year. Hopefully, I'll make it next year. --John 

          9. BoJangles | Mar 07, 2009 01:37am | #39

            John,  What you have to explain to the young man, is that it's the first few rows that are the killer.  We always use six block high frostwalls.  The last three rows are a breeze...nice and comfortable!

             

          10. User avater
            Matt | Mar 07, 2009 05:20am | #40

            >> The bottom of the footing there was 18-in down, which made the block work pretty easy.  <<

            What'd you go so deep for?  :-)

  11. User avater
    Gene_Davis | Mar 07, 2009 05:59am | #41

    Andy, search the FH archives.  There is a great article from a few years back I was just re-reading about frost-protected shallow foundations, written by a PA builder, and he shows all the details necessary for doing an unheated garage package with curbs.

    I would cite issue # and date, but am on the road tonight.

    OOOOOOPPPPPSSSSS!  just read your part about IRC not allowing FPSF for unheated.  You sure about that?  We do it in upstate NY regularly.

    If for certain you cannot, it may be a great excuse to use ICFs and the integral footing done using FabForm Industry's fabric.  A little staking, some rollformed steel hat sections, the roll of fabric, the same zip-ties used on jihadi POWs, and your ICF blocks.  One nice integral pour, and you are ready for your slab prep work.

    The FabForm stuff is sort of a western Canada thing, but what the heck, maybe crusty old New England is ready for something new.  If TOH jobs can be done using precast Superior Walls foundations, you Yankees should be using fabric.

     

    View Image

    "A stripe is just as real as a dadgummed flower."

    Gene Davis        1920-1985



    Edited 3/6/2009 10:06 pm ET by Gene_Davis

    1. andy_engel | Mar 07, 2009 05:01pm | #42

      The IRC has details for unheated parts of buildings attached to heated buildings, but it doesn't cover freestanding unheated buildings. The ASCE Standard 32-01 that the IRC references for the FPSF that it does cover also includes details for unheated buildings. Not much different - the insulation needs to go further out from the building is all. I'm pretty sure I can get the AHJ to sign off based on the design from that document, but if not, I can get it stamped by an engineer.Andy

      "Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein (or maybe Mark Twain)

      "Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom

      "Everything not forbidden is compulsory." T.H. White, The Once and Future King

      1. jimAKAblue | Mar 07, 2009 06:32pm | #43

        If the building is unheated, why wouldn't you just allow it to float with the frost.

        In SE MI (clay) , they required 42 footings for house but allowed a 24" ratwall for unnattached garages. The rats woudn't tunnel more than 24" to get under the wall in the winter.

        Some localities allowed the garages to be poured on 5" slabs with no footings. The garage just rose and fell with the frost.

        They also allowed attached garage to be poured on 8" x 42 poured "footings" although most were 12" x 42. The wider footings provided both a lip to catch the garage slab and also a brick ledge.

        It's a garage. It don't matter if it heaves...it'll go back down where it belongs in the spring.

         

        1. andy_engel | Mar 07, 2009 06:58pm | #44

          I think the concern is differential heave. If the soils are consistent, and if they're consistently drained, and if the shade of the building doesn't cause one side to move at a different rate than the others, you might be okay. But if the movement isn't consistent, you end up with stresses that can crack un-reinforced masonry.The other issue is the same one that causes rocks to pop out of the soil in the spring. As the object is raised up, particularly by frost adhesion to the foundation, voids are created where bits of dirt can fall fall under it. In time, the rock or the building gets pushed up out of the dirt.Andy

          "Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein (or maybe Mark Twain)

          "Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom

          "Everything not forbidden is compulsory." T.H. White, The Once and Future King

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