Hi everyone long time.
So here is what happened: Fortiflash tape was used to flash the R.O.s on a house we just built. This is a bit of a fancy project house (I’ll post some pics in the gallery when we finish up) and because of that we’ve been there about a year now on and off bouncing around. The siding has been up for about 7 months.
It is clear ceder 4 1/2″ reveal bevel siding installed over a rainscreen(tar paper under 1/4″ plywood strips)
We started noticing some black drips running down every here and there by some of the doors and windows and as we replaced a faulty door we solved the mystery. the sticky tar back of the fortiflash tape was getting super heated in the air gap behind the siding, then melting and dripping out through the siding.
Just wanted to give a heads up and also has anyone else had that problem?
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Replies
ouch, what's Fortiflash say??
ouch is right. we never contacted fortiflash______________________________________________
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Interesting. I checked out their site for installation caveats but didn't find any. One thought was prolonged exposure to UV rays before being covered up. Some products act pretty squirrely when left to long to the elements.
But thanks for the heads up.
that is a good thought but we installed when it was cold out and promptly sided. A huge siding job that we did with our 4 carpenter crew and it took us awhile because we dont do siding all that often but still i think the longest anything was exposed was only about a month.______________________________________________
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We started noticing some black drips running down every here and there by some of the doors and windows and as we replaced a faulty door we solved the mystery. the sticky tar back of the fortiflash tape was getting super heated in the air gap behind the siding, then melting and dripping out through the siding.
The tape was getting "superheated" in november in Oregon?!
Any compatiblity issue with other sealants used around doors and windows?
I brought Moistop flashing and non-Moistop sealant up as a question in an incompatible materials thread recently- I always feel like a sucker when I buy their proprietary sealant. Maybe less so now?...
Coincidentally, I just got a video e-mail from Hanley Wood showing a deck ledger install where the guy lays a couple fat beads of PL over Moistop peel-and stick.
Makes you wonder...
k
Edited 11/19/2008 12:10 am ET by KFC
not dripping currently. dripped in the summer time and this location gets a lot of sunlight and portland is i admit a rainy city but dont knock us man we get at least like 6 solid weeks of sun. we used volcum i don't think there are any compatibility issues there______________________________________________
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Ok, it melted a while ago. That I can believe. Portland gets pretty toasty in the summer, I hear. Hell, San Francisco was toasty this summer. (Doomed- we're all doomed).
What is volcum? Moistop specifically states that any non Moistop sealant used in conjunction with Moistop flashing will void its warranty. It's hard to believe it would cause failure like you're talking about, but they might give you the business if you admit to using non-proprietary caulking.
k
maybe im spelling it wrong but it is i think a polyurethane ext. caulk/sealent. very thick, comes in a gold tube, you can get sanded or non sanded... just googled it it's vulkemmoistop? is that the company who manufactures fortiflash? I'm all but certain that those products mixing wasnt the problem.______________________________________________
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Yeah, Moistop makes fortiflash, and a bunch of other flashing products. They also market a proprietary sealant. I'll try to find their wording, but I'm 98% sure that using any non Moistop sealant with their flashings will void their warranty. Something about the solvent in the sealant dissolving the sticky part of the flashing.
I always feel like I'm being scammed when I shell out $6 for a tube of caulk just to satisfy their fine print... but so far I haven't had the cojones not to. I think a lot of folks aren't even aware of the issue. As I said, JLC (or Remodeling) just published a video with a guy laying PL over Moistop peel and stick...
But I agree that that probably was not the issue in your case. Just be aware that if you go after Fortiflash/Moistop and admit to using non-Moistop sealant, you may be in for it.
I'll look up the warranty clause when I get a chance.
k
FortiFlash is expressly warranted for a period of ten (10) years from purchase that it will perform to Fortifiber’s published specifications when installed according to Fortifiber’s installation procedures and accepted industry standards. Installation must use Moistop¯ Sealant and one of the following Fortifiber brand weather-resistive barrier products (WeatherSmart™, Jumbo Tex¯, Weather Tex™ or Fortify¯) in a properly designed and constructed wall system. In the event of a warranty claim, Fortifiber will pay the cost of materials and labor to correct problems found to be caused solely by the failure of Fortifiber’s product as expressly warranted above.
(from fortifash's web site specs)
k
thanks KFC. I feel a bit foolish. to be honest I've never read any instructions with that product before I guess the first few times i used it there was an older smarter carpenter telling me how and I've never thought to question.. I'm starting to wonder. perhaps it does have to do with a chemical reaction with tthe tarish sticky stuff.______________________________________________
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Time to contact either "Vulkem"or "FortiFlash" and find out about the incompatibility issue.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Edited 11/20/2008 4:55 pm by dovetail97128
Don't feel too bad. I think most guys don't know about the warranty stipulation. I always feel scammed when I buy the Moistop sealant. It probably has nothing to do with your situation.
As I said, Hanley Wood (The publisher of JLC) just sent me a deck ledger install video in which their "expert" used PL sealant over Moistop Peel-and-stick. So that means you too are qualified to do educational videos for national construction publishers...
If it was me, I would explore all the other possibilities first, and fess up to the sealant last. I wouldn't lie about it, but I'd want to hear about all the other possible issues before I gave Moistop an easy out.
I posed the question in a different thread as to how seriously anyone takes the compatibility, and no one said "oh yeah, I've melted Fortiflash with brand x sealant". If no one on this site has first hand stories, the issue may be minimal. You'd think if it was a big deal, someone would have a horror story.
is the tar paper touching the fortiflash?
I must be an old bast**d but isn't the flashing paper supposed to be a third line of defence is a well installed and sealed window or door? I still use tarpaper and have never had a callback for leakage.
Anything that sticks now will fail in the future. Why rely on another toxic product that is foisted on the building community as a superior when there was no problem in the first place, (other than that tarpaper is probably toxic too.)
I must be an old bast**d but isn't the flashing paper supposed to be a third line of defence is a well installed and sealed window or door? I still use tarpaper and have never had a callback for leakage.
Anything that sticks now will fail in the future. Why rely on another toxic product that is foisted on the building community as a superior when there was no problem in the first place, (other than that tarpaper is probably toxic too.)
Well, yes and no. It may be the third line of defense at the opening itself, but it's the only line of defense against water that may be leaking down the sheathing. Roof line issues, nail holes in the tar paper, etc. etc.
And even if you look at it as the "third line", are you saying you don't flash your window openings? wow...
As far as whether the new squishy/sticky products are short-lived or toxic, you may have a point. Time will tell, I suppose.
I've had good results with them myself, and personally, I think the extra protection against damage (and resulting ecological hits on new sheathing, framing, wood windows, more caulking and paint, gas to drive out to the callback etc.) are karmic justification for the products.
Still, I'm a big fan of tarpaper too.
k
k
Third line of defence: flashing paper or Fortiflash installed directly on the sheathing before the window is installed. (They used to inspect this where I live.)
Second line: layer of tarpaper OVER the window flange. This is the paper that wraps the house.
First line: Head flashing, caulk and paint
Whenever I see tarpaper installed like Tyvek I just laugh. In fact whenever I see Tyvek I laugh.
Tarpaper seals nail holes unless you pull out the nail. Tyvek doesn't.
Is applying tarpaper a lost art?
Old Bas***d
As I said O.B., It may be the third line for water intrusion at the opening, but it's the first (or a close second) line for water behind the wrap/paper.
Check out cargin's posts #36-39 in the "rotten marvin window" thread for a good example of water intrusion behind the wrap/paper.
k
Recently, I used Fortiflash and I bought their proprietary sealant. However, upon opening the tube I found the sealant had dried hard inside and it was impossible to use. After buying a few tubes with the same result, I found out that this was happening on a regular basis and the construction supply house was going to discontinue selling the sealant. So I called the Moistop company for technical advice because I was fearful of incompatibility issues. Here's what I was told. Stay away from polyurethane caulks. Standard acrylic caulks were a good bet if they contact only the white outer layer of the Fortiflash since that outer layer is some sort of protective film. At any rate, this was last spring and perhaps the problems with their sealant have been solved.
Excellent info. Thanks. I haven't had any problems with their sealant over the last year, but...
k
p.s. I wonder if we could get Moistop to weigh in on this, on the record. Hey Moistop!
mystery solved. thanks for the info______________________________________________
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OK, to recap, you are saying that the Vulkem melted the face of the Fortiflash and then liquified the backing, causing the drips? I have heard tell of that sort of thing. I suspect you discovered it because of the rainscreen gap, which allowed the ooze to... ooze down. KFC raises the question of whether others have had the same problem, and I suspect it happens but is rarely an issue because it's trapped behind non-rainscreen siding details.
Never used Fortiflash, but I use a whole lotta Vycor. Here is the technical letter re compatibility:
http://www.na.graceconstruction.com/custom/Window_and_Door_Flashings/download/TP-067B.pdf
I have seen grace ice and water shield ooze stuff out under a black slate roof. Presumeably from heat.
you know, i've got a few partial rolls of fortifiber kicking around, and more than a few partial tubes of sealant, too. maybe it's time to do an experiment for the betterment of breaktime. i don't know if i can replicate all the normal conditions, tho.
or i could just ask a fortifiber rep, but as i've said, i'm skeptical of advice from a seller which tells me to buy more of their stuff. (not un-believing, just skeptical).
k
yeah, what DavidM said- is that really what happened?
how do you know? not based only on what I posted, I hope. I'm only repeating the info that a for profit operation is giving me telling me to buy more of their stuff. ;)
k
<Stay away from polyurethane caulks.>That's curious since Moistop is a polyurethane according to their own website.With this info it appears that NP-1 or Sikka could be used:Moistop¯ Sealant; polyurethane, one-component balanced modulus, moisture curing, non-sag elastomeric sealant.IF THIS PRODUCT IS USED IN DIRECT
CONTACT WITH ANY OTHER SEALANT OR ELASTOMER,
A COMPATIBILITY TEST MUST BE CONDUCTED
BY PURCHASER OR USER, PRIOR TO ACCEPTANCE.
MOISTOP SEALANT IS NOT COMPATIBLE WITH OXIME
CONTAINING SILICONE SEALANTS. The suitability of this
product, for each intended use, must be determined by the purchaser
prior to acceptance.Moistop MSDS:Butyl benzyl phthalate
Xylenes
Ethyl benzene
Methylene diphenyl isocyanate (MDI)Vulkem MSDS:
Aromatic Polyisocyanate Resin
Diisodecyl phthalate
Calcium Carbonate (Limestone)
Tackifier
Titanium dioxide
Thickener
Crystalline Silica (Quartz)/ Silica Sand
Barry E-Remodeler
thanks for weighing in. i think we may get to the bottom of this one day. two questions:
one: where do i find msds online?
two: what is the solvent in that Vulkem list? the solvent in the first is xylene, correct? and the benzene...
(i'm no chemist, although i have been exposed to some chemicals...)
k
and if i remember, np1 has xylene as a solvent also... what is the solvent in PL urethanes?
Edited 11/30/2008 9:59 pm ET by KFC
Edited 11/30/2008 10:03 pm ET by KFC
The MSDS sheets are found on most websites where the product comes from or I do a google for the product + MSDSIt looks like the solvent in vulkem is Toulene, which if I remember from my painting days,is used in place of xylol when you want faster drying.NP1 has mineral spirits:
Sonolastic NP 1 should not come in contact with oilbase
caulking, silicone sealants, polysulfides, fillers
impregnated with oil, asphalt, or tar.PL poly has Stoddard type solvent which I think is mineral spirits also:
http://stickwithpl.com/pdf/PL%20WindowDoorSiding.pdfI can see the difference between moistop and vulkem, but I wonder where the incompatibility, if any, is exactly
Barry E-Remodeler
interesting, interesting. thanks again for details. so why is toluene not on that msds?
the reason i'm asking about the solvents is that someone once told me the solvents were the issue, not the body of the sealant.
k
not sure why, it's in the voc compliant msds at the top of the page I referenced...might be part of one of the other chemicalsNot sure about the solvents being the issue in this case. It's less than .1% by weight and should flash out relatively fast
Barry E-Remodeler
so if it was to react with the peel and stick you'd expect to notice it relatively quickly... good point.
k
yes______________________________________________
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Does Fortiflash melt tarpaper?
k
Around here the Biggest promblem is when you go to the Car Wash, View Image
is that one of those reecently laid off auto workers doing remodels everyone talks about?______________________________________________
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Had a friend in high school that had his bumper held on with duct tape.Then again, NASCAR calls it 200mph tape for a reason.
If I recall the Gray tape is good till 80-90 MPH,
You got to get the Red Tape the Stucco guys use if your going for that 200MPH range.
With the POS that I drive were still Old School, bailing wire & chewing Gum.
Hey, Skyecore, are you Skye from PDX HfH? I'm the Bob that hauled some trailers for HfH a few years ago.
oh.. hfh? i dont think so i dont know any hfh. I work for a company called dhr though.. you from portland too bobbomax?______________________________________________
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