frame all at once or piece by piece?
I recently had someone tell me that I lack experience because I like to frame my walls on the ground stand them , connect them , and then plumb them all at once. It seems to me that that is a good method . If you keep your top and bottom plates butted tight together and your cuts are accurate everything should be plumb , level and square.
The gentleman that I was having this debate with claims that it is better to stand all the perimeter walls put turn buckles on them to straighten them and then frame your walls without the bottom plate so that you can twist them into place around the braces. Or his other solution which I feel to be better method is to build them piece by piece .
I realize that sometimes it is necessary to build walls piece by piece but I feel that it is better to do it all at once .
What is your experience ?
Replies
i'd hate to be paying him by the hour
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"""The gentleman that I was having this debate with claims that it is better to stand all the perimeter walls put turn buckles on them to straighten them and then frame your walls without the bottom plate so that you can twist them into place around the braces. Or his other solution which I feel to be better method is to build them piece by piece ."""
Steve,
Tell that guy that he's in La La Land.
That's totally insane! Turn Buckles,insane!
Leave off the bottom plate? This guy must be a drunk!
I shoe and plate every single wall exterior and interior and frame the outside walls first tacking some temp braces and then frame all the inside wall lapping them to the outside walls.
Once everything is nailed off I plumb the outside corners brace them up and string all the outside plates and straighten the walls then you straighten all the interior walls.
What does your friend do for a living other then being a comedian?
He is a 52 year old carpenter with 20 years of experience and he says that he worked on Bill Gates house in Washington . I on the otherhand I'm 33 with only 8 years of experience and this guy works for me . I think he just has a problem being told what to do by someone that is younger.
Bill Gates is the only one that could afford this guy.
You got it right, keep on truckin'.be heck of a tagline...
Ya, he goes home at nite to tell his old lady, "Guess what leg I pulled on that kid today..."
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
If he's so smart, how come he's working for you??OTOH, maybe it would be wise to stroke his ego a bit every now and then. Ask his advice occasionally, let him do stuff his way when it won't interfere with the rest of the work.I'm sure it galls a bit to be working for someone 20 years younger.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
I try to let him do things his way when I can but lately it bugs me a little that I'm paying him the most out of anyone on my crew to do things inefficiently. When I can spend 15 minutes with another employee telling him how I want something done and get no argument. That person can then give me the quality product that I want in half the time and I pay them $8 per hour less. I don't think that is fair to the client or my other employees to let it continue all it causes is tension on the job that everyone picks-up on .
"That person can then give me the quality product that I want in half the time and I pay them $8 per hour less. I don't think that is fair to the client or my other employees to let it continue all it causes is tension on the job that everyone picks-up on ."Steve,Why is this clown still working for you. You just summed it up right there that he should be gone.Joe Carola
As soon as I saw his first post, I figured you would have good input on this.I have a harder time framing the way you do, more experience with, as we've discussed before, Western framing. But on the last addition I worked on, although it wasn't really that large, the shoes and plates were laid normally and I felt I did pretty well, keeping up with everyone and not screwing up anything.What Steve should do, besides letting the guy go, is give him something to do as piece work and see if he makes any money.But, really, what does doing it piece by piece mean?
"But, really, what does doing it piece by piece mean?"Tashler,He said this, "Or his other solution which I feel to be better method is to build them piece by piece."Since he said that this guy likes to stand all the outside walls first using turnbuckles/????????? and then go back and frame inside walls without bottom plates(another???? Insane way)lifting around turnbuckles. I think what he means piece by piece is snapping lines for interior walls and then shoe and plate one wall at a time and raise it, plumb, sight and brace it.Go to the next set of snapped out lines and make up that walls shoe and plate and frame that, raise it, plumb, sight and brace it.Who the hell knows. That guys whacked.Joe Carola
I kinda wondered if he was talking about just nailing up the top plate, then nailing studs between floor and top plate (assembling in place), with no bottom plate. (Of course, this assumes that the ceiling joists are already in place.)But basically I couldn't parse it.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
"I kinda wondered if he was talking about just nailing up the top plate, then nailing studs between floor and top plate (assembling in place), with no bottom plate. (Of course, this assumes that the ceiling joists are already in place.)"That scares me even more then what I thought!Joe Carola
When I said piece by piece I mean that he would establish his top and bottom plates and then fill in the rest of the studs using a stringline to keep it straight. There are no rafters in place at this time !
Edited 9/1/2006 9:15 pm ET by steve151
That sounds like my friends like to frame finished basements- set the top and bottom plates and then cut each stud individually.How....nevermind. This is too screwed up.
Having a guy like that around would drive me nuts...and I'm a very patient guy.
The guy is out to lunch...he should go work some more for bill gates, and let you do your work they way you are doing it, sounds like you got it down pat.
"peice by peice"..gimme a break...maybe you should pay him the same way.....
"I try to let him do things his way when I can but lately it bugs me a little that I'm paying him the most out of anyone on my crew to do things inefficiently. When I can spend 15 minutes with another employee telling him how I want something done and get no argument. That person can then give me the quality product that I want in half the time and I pay them $8 per hour less. "THe guy is a leech and is sucking off you for as long as it will last. Fire him.Just curious, did you get references or confirm his supposed experience prior to hiring him?
I'm embarrassed to say that I did not get any references on him . I went to some houses that he did work on and talked to some people that knew him and everything seamed ok.but these people did'nt employ him. I have had four carpenters come on my jobsite for interviews one wanted $40 , two wanted $45 , and one wanted $50 per hour . I run ads in the paper non stop and call trade schools in two states with only a limited response. Finding someone that cares about the quality of their work and having a positive influence on the job in general is almost impossible to find. So when I find someone that has even a few good qualities I almost feel pressured to hire them quickly before they get a better offer.
Where are you located. It would be helpful if you filled out your profile.Tom
Douglasville, GA
I know your pain. I've had short experience with hiring people who seem to have had more experience talking themselves up than accumulating work experience. At this point, I've made a list of guys (no women but me so far) that I've met who would take on work as a sub and I've had better luck that way. They appreciate the business, want to stick with only one aspect or another of the project at hand and by their independence and requirement to work to bid makes things go much smoother.
Let him go, he'll drag your good carps down.
If someone said that and then says he has 20 years of experience, I'd have to wonder if it's really one year of experience repeated 20 times. <g> Buic
He is a 52 year old carpenter with 20 years of experience and he says that he worked on Bill Gates house in Washington . I on the otherhand I'm 33 with only 8 years of experience and this guy works for me . I think he just has a problem being told what to do by someone that is younger.He has experienced 20 years of framing the wrong way. Good for him and Bill Gates."He works for me". That's it right there. He's getting paid by the hour to frame backwards and ten times longer than the rest of the world.Do yourself a favor and don't listen to this guy or you're in for big trouble and you will be loosing a lot of money on this guy.That older guy being told what to do by the younger guy crap is always happening and I went through it myself. People like that are just mad at the world because they never wanted or had the drive to LEARN something the right way like your trying to do. Now they're mad because you have your own business or whether you work for someone and you’re the lead man. You got that way because you care about what your doing and they don't.
Joe Carola
He is a 52 year old carpenter with 20 years of experience and he says that he worked on Bill Gates house in Washington . I on the otherhand I'm 33 with only 8 years of experience and this guy works for me . I think he just has a problem being told what to do by someone that is younger.
He is lying through his teeth, for sure about working on Bill Gates house, probably about everything else too. Nobody who has ever framed anything professionally would suggest framing a wall without a bottom plate and then try and attach it after standing it up. I am trying to picture this, I would pay to watch someone try this if only for entertainment.
I say you try it his way once just to prove once and for all that he is a lying blowhard. He will hem and haw, and then it will be someone he knew once who worked on Gates house........
I think you are right that he has an authority issue.
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specializtion is for insects. - robert heinlen
"Nobody who has ever framed anything professionally would suggest framing a wall without a bottom plate and then try and attach it after standing it up."Woody,I frame every wall without a botom plate, but not like this guy does. My bottom plates are nailed to the deck already and we just lift the walls up and stand them on the bottom plate and then toe-nail them.What this guy wants to do is insane.Joe Carola
Hey Joe... I never heard of framing a wall without nailing the bottom plate while on the deck. Aside from sticking framing a basement wall, say... or lots of times when there are 2 bottom plates when we have a concrete floor going in . Then 1st bottom plate is nailed to floor, but the wall still gets its plate nailed to bottom while flat.
what are the benefits to your method. and what is the aproach...do you use a temp brace across top ( ala 1x4 truss style) then stand wall, I know you like to sheathe after wall is up.
Just curious about other approaches - there's more than one way to skin a cat.
"do you use a temp brace across top ( ala 1x4 truss style) then stand wall,"No, we don't use anything. After we snap all lines we nail the shoe down permanently to the deck and then tack the first of the two top plates to the shoe. After that we nail the second top plate into the first one. After that we lay everything out, studs, joists marks on the top plate and plumbing.Once everything is laid out we start out with the longest outside wall first and pull the tacked nails out and pull the top plate back and lay it upside down and nail all the headers, king studs and liners/jacks, then drop the king studs over.Once we're done with that we just grab the top plates and push the wall forward until it hits the shoe and lift the wall up and toe-nail the outside corners in and nail a temporary brace on them. After that we toe-nail the bottom of the rest of the studs into the shoe putting another temporary brace in.The wall doesn't move anywhere when you slide the bottom of the studs into the shoe as your raising it. After the two outside walls are up we doe the same shorter walls and just lift the lap over the longest walls and slide the lap into place.Onmce all the walls are up we brace everything off.I'm going to take pictures and post them.
Joe Carola
Joe,
Please do take pics and post them. When I see framing as clean and well done as yours it gives me something to shoot for. You might be surprised by how many guys here and at JLC look up to you :-)
"Please do take pics and post them. When I see framing as clean and well done as yours it gives me something to shoot for. You might be surprised by how many guys here and at JLC look up to you :-)"Tim,I will take pictures step by step.I think everyone looks down at me because I'm only 5'8-380/64".....;-)Joe Carola
You got me beat I'm barely 5'7" depending on how new my socks are :-)
In 1994 I joined a crew that had several guys i already knew. I was out of work and they kept telling me to mend fences with the boss, whom I had worked for (unsuccessfully) in 1986.I was middle of the road on the totem pole. But I soon found out why I was wanted so much.I'm 6'5". I could walk around the house nailing off the bridging with a gun. It was easier than the other guys setting up any kind of platform or ladder.Became my job for a year.Just like when all the old people want something from the top shelf at the food store.I think they wait until I get to that isle.
you're small enough to be a shingler!;)
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The way I was taught, you toenail the bottom plate down on its side, layout and nail together the wall, then pivot the wall up on the toenails.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
"The way I was taught, you toenail the bottom plate down on its side, layout and nail together the wall, then pivot the wall up on the toenails."Dan,That worked for me when I framed in Cape Cod and then sheathed the walls and then rasied them.That way doesn't work for me the way I do my shoes and plates.Joe Carola
Joe, What Dan describes sounds like the 'western' framing i have done on other crews in the past. The bottom plates don't get nailed down initially, and the walls get sheathed before they get stood up.
"What Dan describes sounds like the 'western' framing i have done on other crews in the past. The bottom plates don't get nailed down initially, and the walls get sheathed before they get stood up."That's how I did it in Cape Cod. We tacked the shoe on edge, plated and laid out the studs and then pulled the first of the two plates back and face-nailed the studs in and them and then I added my second top plate and sheathed the walls and raised them.Joe Carola
Edited 9/12/2006 10:23 am ET by Framer
Joe,Pretty much the same as the article on page 70 of the current issue of FB, about framing gable walls.We even did the chimney chase like that. Tall and heavy. In my younger days.Glenn
We call it platform framing.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
if you go back thru and say to yourself...
hmmm.. i wonder what everyone is REALLY trying to describe
Steve151.. has successfully mislead everyone into thinking that his lead carpenter is a horse's azz..
but i doubt it
all he really described was raising the exterior walls and bracing them , and lining them .. before he starts building interior walls
as to the "turnbuckles" ... we've used form jacks since 2000.. i wouldn't dream of going back to "spring boards" which is how we framed for the first 20 years
if you haven't tried form jacks.... you really ought to
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Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 9/12/2006 4:17 pm ET by MikeSmith
framing a wall without a bottom plate and then try and attach it after standing it up. I am trying to picture this, I would pay to watch someone try this if only for entertainment.
Yeah, that's the image I've been struggling with--box framing everything but a bottom plate, then holding that up so a person could toenail all those loose studs to a bottom plate?
Probably be funny to watch, funny to hurting, watching the helpers try and herd that cat wreck.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Take a trip to Jersey. You'll probably see it done on 90% of the structures going up.
OK- forgive me if I've misunderstood, but isn't that what Framer Joe's talking about, in a nutshell? Nailing the bottom plate flat to the floor, nailing the rest of the wall assembly together, then tilting the top plates/studs/header assembly up onto the bottom plate and toenailing all the studs to it? Definitely need those pictures, Joe!
Personally, never seen it done that way- always seen walls built and sheathed on the deck and then tilted up. Heck, I've even seen them put building paper and rough fit windows and doors before tilting the walls up. The less to do from ladders or scaffolding, the better!
Sometimes, when a stub wall would be too heavy to lift onto its foundation for instance, you build 'em in place stick by stick or in shorter modules, then top plate and sheath them in place to stagger the sheathing and plate joints.
I can understand why you might choose to frame walls on the deck but sheath them once they're standing, if you have access to a sheathing sub and figure it's cheaper that way. Never understood how it could be cheaper that way, but I trust that the math works out for people who actually do this. But I don't understand the advantage to standing a wall with the bottom plate nailed to the deck and then toe-nailing all the studs. I know you've done it both ways, Joe- why does this way work better for you?!
I guess the bottom plate can't slide off the edge of the deck when you're standing it up if you do it that way, but there's not much risk of that when you've toenailed the bottom plate to the deck either. That was a trick I learned here- we never did that when I was a framer's helper. We just nailed a few blocks to the rim joist and heaved 'em up, and we never had a wall fall off the deck that way either.
And I guess the weight of the wall keeps the wall from behaving like a jiggling mess while you're standing it the way I keep imagining it. But I still don't see the point of doing it that way.
but isn't that what Framer Joe's talking about, in a nutshell?
Yeah, that's what I picked up after reading his post.
Which only muddied my memory of the method offered up to OP a gazillion posts ago.
Framer is also taking sensible steps to raise his walls without having all the studs "flapping" about, too (which might be just something to see).
The arguments of stick v. box I've seen, though, almost always center on nailing. That either toenailing is faster, or end-nailing is stronger. That makes using both at once a little bit unique for me.
Here, in slab-on-grade land, it's almost all stick built, if only to make it easier to stab the bottom plate down on the slab. (Which then makes me shudder to see the nails toenailed only an 1/8 up of the stud, bottomed out on the slab--but, there's 6 of 'em, so it's gotta be strong.) Good nad bad in jsut about everything, we look long enough, I guess.
Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Send your gentleman friend to me in sunny SoCal. After just a few fun hours with my crew he will decide that whatever experience he has is enough to retire on. TURNBUCKLES?????? Your method of framing is just fine. I have never figured out what it is about framing that makes everyone an expert. It seems that at least half of the people I have met in my life have "done some framing".
Its interesting that turnbuckles are brought up here. I remember when I was taking the building program at the local tech (nailin' school) one instructor boasted of the wonder of the new turnbuckles, we used them to hold the walls on a build assignment we had.My partner scoffed. We use 1 x 8 spruce spring boards to steady the walls for plumbing (the flex they have is nice) and a regular 2 x 4 stick to hold them in place prior. Has anyone used turnbuckles? I don't think i've even seen them in use around here.
The crew I used to do my sip walls used them and they normally do conventional framing. They use them on all their jobs.Tom
Douglasville, GA
I've certainly seen similar stuff on commercial construction.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
I thought Mike Smith used something similar?
Occasionally, I'll use a "form jack" to tweek a wall and hold in in place...I have a bunch of them that I use when forming highwall foundations. They're a turnbuckle unit made to attach to a 2 X 4 of the length desired....pretty handy for a lot of things.
And they're a heck of a lot beefier than that thing someone posted a pic of and yet cost $10 to $15 apiece. (Available at masonry supply houses and some rental yards).
Used them a lot awhile back on a kit log home I built to keep those warped pine "logs" aligned on long runs.
I think Mike Smith also uses them on occasion.
Most times, spring boards are sufficient.
WHat you speak of sounds more like what I saw used in school, it certainly was nothing like what is shown in the picture someone included here.THey were a long steel unit, that if I recall correctly, had a screw end on each end with a small plate that swiveled to the desired placement. Then one would twist the unit in and out to get the desired hold for plumb and then 'lock' it in place. It was secured top and bottom by nailing through holes in said plates.
Attached is a photo of what I was referring to; sounds about what you describe.
Checked my rec'pts; paid $10 per each for 20 of them brand new 4 years ago...maybe a bit more precious now with current steel prices.
Great for intended purpose; adjusting plumb/alignment on foundation form walls.
I've used them occasionally for adjusting long framed wall spans...especially nice when working alone. And they can be adjusted in or out.
The top angle section accomodates a 2 X of whatever length desired. The small angled piece at the bottom attaches to the subfloor or a steel form stake.
The green metal thingy the jack is propped against is not a part of it....that is a gate. :-)
(I store some of my odds and ends stuff in my barn).
Seems kinda odd to me about the turnbuckles. Tunbuckles are for rope and cable.
Are these framing adjusters what he was talking about?
Lee Valley calls them scrooge clamps. $30 US.
I could see them using these on the Gates House.
View Image
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=44908&cat=1,43838,47843
May neighbors respect You, and troubles neglect You.
Gord
the turnbuckles that I was talking about are very similar to the picture that you sent . As he frames he has these all over the place , then he tries to frame the other walls within the exterior shell. It is a hassle at best !
""he turnbuckles that I was talking about are very similar to the picture that you sent . As he frames he has these all over the place , then he tries to frame the other walls within the exterior shell. It is a hassle at best !""Steve,You have to put a stop to this insane and useless way of framing. Those turnbuckles or whatever they are useless also they way you described.Once your exterior walls are up, you frame your interior walls into them. Those walls will act as a brace for the exterior walls.If you know this guy is wrong, why arte you sill letting him get away with all this nonsense and why is he still working for you?
Joe Carola
I guess I was hoping that I could manage the problem and still keep the help but its becoming clear that he has to go .
Y'know, if I was framing a 200' wall, I would love a ton of those braces, but the building would be big enough to have open floor spaces for constructing the interior walls, and the braces would not be an issue. Maybe on something like a 10,000 sq/ft Gates house or a strip mall.
More than a couple of them on a long wall in a standard house would be overkill IMO. Standard 2X4 bracing to a sightline/ stringline, where needed, should suffice. The screw braces would be great for sucking a wall in, but not used everywhere.
May neighbors respect You, and troubles neglect You.
Gord
The house that we are building is 8224 square feet and there still isn't enough room!
"The house that we are building is 8224 square feet and there still isn't enough room!"Steve,Can you explain that?There’s always enough room to frame any house any size with a million walls in it.You just have to raise them strategically and put temp braces out of the way for the next wall. All your outside walls go up, and then your longest inside walls go up tied to your outside walls and then going on from there. It’s all a matter of how you lap your walls also and the way you raise them.Once my outside walls are up I would raise a center wall that would lap the outside wall. Now my bedroom wall for example goes between the center wall and the outside wall would get framed and both sides of that wall would lap over the center and outside walls.If I framed the outside walls first and then framed the bedroom wall before the center wall, I would have to struggle to slide the center wall under the bedroom wall lap.
Joe Carola