Replies

1. 
   Allon | Jul 04, 2006 10:09pm | #1

   Unless you have a positive placement nailer, that sounds like a nightmare. You're going to break your arm attempting to nail that many nails.

   The code allows for toenailing because it's good enough. I wouldn't use clips unless it was to solve a problem.

   Since you're asking though, I get the sense that you are thinking of framing without a gun. Is there a reason?

2. 
   Stilletto | Jul 04, 2006 10:40pm | #2

   On my frames we use bolts for attaching the green plate to the foundation,  I use a drill bit for railroad ties that countersinks the bolt washer and nut. 

   I cut the bolts off flush with an angle grinder and a cutoff wheel,  then put walls on top of the green plate.  Bottom plate,  studs and top plates all untreated lumber on top of the green lumber. 

   After the walls are built and before I stand them up I put a huge bead of construction adhesive down and then stand the wall up on the green plate.  Then use nails to hold the wall in place until the glue dries.  The glue also helps in sliding the wall back and forth until you get it where you want.

   So you pretty much end up with two bottom plates and two top plates.  Not sure what the clips cost but a few extra plates usually only runs me about $25 on a garage that size. 

   Can't you hear the violin playing your song.

3. 
   Piffin | Jul 04, 2006 10:48pm | #3

   I use a lot of A-35s but wouldn'y dream of doing all that.

   By the time you have toenailed off ten studs, you will be good enough at it that you are doing better, faster, and less expensive than using the metal plates. It only takes a litle practice. or spend 3-4 hundred on a paslode frame naailer

    

    

   Welcome to the
   Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
    where ...
   Excellence is its own reward!

4. 
   Matt | Jul 04, 2006 11:11pm | #4

   If you want to do a carpentry project, you might as well go ahead and develop the basic skills.

   As far as garage walls, Stiletto's method (or some variation) is a fairly common method and avoids all that toenailing but uses a little more lumber.  Don't forget the HD galvanized nails when nailing into the PT...

1. 
   user-159210 | Jul 05, 2006 12:00am | #5

   Was thinking of buying a nail gun I already have a compressor, do they sell galvanized  (10d's )strips for nail guns? Double pt sill plates are already down ,had a pita squaring them up by myself still about a 1/4" off on the diagonal measurment (22' x 24') so each stud will be raised then secured and top plate added,more studs etc. I am working alone and would'nt want to raise a wall by myself and finally got the sill plates square and bolted. Any tips on making this go smoothly-Paul

1. 
   Piffin | Jul 05, 2006 12:26am | #7

   sure, galvies or SS nails are avaailable 

    

   Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

2. 
   Allon | Jul 05, 2006 07:19pm | #11

   People here have made some excellent suggestions.Get a framing nailer (or rent), make sure your compressor can handle the load or you will need a new one too. Get a box of .131s for the main nailing and you can buy small $10 boxes of specialty nails like ring shank and galvies.Finally, cut a piece of 2X at 14.5". Lay that on the bottom plate between the stud you just secured and the next stud. That will keep the stud you are toenailing from moving while you toenail it! Pretty crafty huh?

1. 
   happyframer | Jul 08, 2006 06:43am | #19

   I've been framing for the past 5 years. The 14.5 inch block for wall framing is the greatest idea I've heard in the past 2 years. I'd go with 14.4 inches so I can get the block out easier after nailing the next stud. I'll be able to sight the .1 inch gap.Thanks

1. 
   JulianTracy | Jul 08, 2006 07:27pm | #21

   Or, better yet - slightly bevel the opposite ends of the 14.5 spacer block so that you can "lever" it out easier.If you to live the high-life than screw a handle in it near the beveled end - man, we could sell those, right?JT

2. 
   Allon | Jul 09, 2006 08:25pm | #22

   I think you're really on to something with the handle and bevel idea.Happyframer: The idea behind the 14.5 block for toe nailing is not so much for layout purposes but to support the stud from jumping out of place on the 1st 2 toenails. Get it?So basically cutting it a 10th of an inch short and spotting the difference doesn't give the stud the support. But I guess you could cut it a 10th inch short, then put a shim between. After shooting, pull the shim and lift the block with ease?

3. 
   Framer | Jul 09, 2006 09:13pm | #23

   Why would you need a block for toenailing?If it's for a one time thing and your not a framer and your not using a gun, then so be it. If your a framer and toenail every stud like I do, I think it would be a waste of time. You just put the stud a little bit away from the mark towards the side you will toenail first and then shoot.Joe Carola

   Edited 7/9/2006 2:53 pm ET by Framer

3. 
   BossHog | Jul 08, 2006 03:53pm | #20

   I didn't read every post in the thread, but - Why not pull up the plates, frame the walls, then set them back up?Or frame the walls with a 2nd bottom plate, then stand 'em up and fasten the plates down.
   I like you. That's why I'm going to kill you last. [Arnold Schwartzenegger in Commando]

5. 
   FlaCarpenter | Jul 05, 2006 12:23am | #6

   You guys have it easy as you apparently aren't building to Florida hurricane specs. On our framed walls we use a TPX4 (2x4 walls) or a TPX6 (2x6 walls). Basically a U shaped strap that goes underneath the bottom plate and gets nailed on both sides with 1 1/2" 10D nails. This is done if walls are platform built and then stood up.

   If we are building vertically, we toe nail and than add a fastener to each stud top and bottom. To make sure the fasteners never fall out, we nail plywood over them with 8d nails 8" in the field and 4" on the joints. When the hurricanes come, the shingles blow off and the drywall ceilings collapse and flood the house but our studs never fall out! :-)

1. 
   davidmeiland | Jul 05, 2006 03:06am | #8

   Great point. Simpson should develop clips that hold the shingles down, and more clips that keep the drywall from falling off. Then they'll have the market covered.

   To the original poster, get a framing nail gun and learn to toenail with it. There have been at least 11 million discussions here about which framing gun to get... the Hitachi NR83AA2 is good. Buy a couple of gnarly banana 2x4s from the lumberyard, cut them into 12" pieces, and start toenailing them to each other for practice. Once you've gotten a feel for it go ahead and start framing your walls.

   You need several kinds of nails for framing. I use:

   3-1/4" x .131 for nailing thru a single plate into the top or bottom of a stud

   2-3/8" x .113 ring shank for nailing plywood subfloor or roof decking down

   2-3/8" x .113 hot-dip galv for toenailing studs to PT plates

   2-1/2" x .131 for nailing sheathing to wall studs

   2-1/2" x .131 hot dip galv for nailing thru sheathing into PT plates.

   2" x .131 for nailing thru sheathing into a single layer of 2x, such as gable trusses or rafters.

   There must be others I'm forgetting. If they're not hot dip galv then they're electro-galv... no bright nails. Make sure you find out what sizes your locale requires.

   Once you're done with the project you can either become a framing contractor or sell the whole mess on eBay. If you buy a decent Hitachi coil framer maybe I'll buy it off you.

    

1. 
   FlaCarpenter | Jul 06, 2006 03:49am | #12

   Ha! Peel and stick is all the rage now around here. I was talking to some roofers the other day who were bragging on it. I told them I would be retired/dead before I ever had to be the one to strip it off to replace shingles. They got that *deer in the headlights look*. ;-)

1. 
   calvin | Jul 06, 2006 04:49am | #13

   If you wan't to hand toenail, or air for that matter................

   Set the corner studs, string and measure, cut and nail.  This if your foundation is off or you don't wish to put the wall in sections.

   Works good, time not bad, outcome perfect.

   Best of luck.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.

   Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.

   Quittin' Time

    

2. 
   Taylor | Jul 08, 2006 01:43am | #14

   Hate to thread hijack, but I was looking at framing nailers recently and the nails they sold for them....Your post helps a lot to clarify "the right nail for the job" since your nail sizes are all I see on sale but......

   If I look at comparable nail diameters e.g. here, you are talking about toenailing studs to plates with 6d nails (code says 3 x 8d) and end-nailing studs to plates with 8d nails (code says 2 x 16d). Note here I am defining nails by common nail diameter.

   If everyone is using this schedule to build houses with framing nailers, what am I missing?

1. 
   davidmeiland | Jul 08, 2006 05:13am | #15

   The typical green vinyl-coated hand-drive 8d nails that lumberyards sell in 50# boxes are what that site calls "coolers"--that's not a term I've ever heard. We could use them for toenailing, but we use the same diameter gun nail instead. The framing material here is all KD and the .131 nails split more when toenailing, so I prefer the .113 and the inspector accepts them. The .131 are labeled as "shear nails" where I buy them. Likewise, everyone I know uses the 3-1/4" x .131 for framing although I do have one gun that would shoot the 3-1/2 x .148 ... or even .162 I think.

1. 
   davidmeiland | Jul 08, 2006 05:31am | #16

   One more thing... for many applications you can use a smaller nail and more of them, if you get the engineer's OK.

2. 
   Taylor | Jul 08, 2006 05:42am | #17

   Yeah, in my old house I always predrill pilot holes before banging in common nails, I've seen how badly splits can develop over time..... I wonder if the nails for framing nailers are heat-treated.... SS sure aren't heat-treated.... Looks like nails for metal connectors are .148 effectively 10d, I assume Simpson requires it for their connectors ow no liability for failure...

3. 
   davidmeiland | Jul 08, 2006 06:05am | #18

   I know the Hitachi strap tite nails are heat-treated--they'll shoot right thru the hanger if you miss the hole. The usual framing nails are not--they'll bend if you hit a knot. The hanger nails are way expensive... maybe that's why.

2. 
   Allon | Jul 09, 2006 10:15pm | #24

   Yes, Taylor that is confusing.In actuallity the code has 2 references you need to refer to.For instance, you may nail 16D at 24" OC for scabbing two studs, or you may nail .131 at 16" OC. Toe nailing should be 4 (2 each side) at .131 not 3.Hope this helps.-Allon

6. 
   JeffBuck | Jul 05, 2006 08:55am | #9

   I'd build each wall in 2 or even 3 sections ... build then lift and brace.

   then add a top plate to tie it all together.

    

   be way faster and way easier.

   Jeff

       Buck Construction

    Artistry In Carpentry

        Pittsburgh Pa

1. 
   DaveRicheson | Jul 05, 2006 01:25pm | #10

   Like Jeff said. Break the walls down into bite size sections you can handle by yourself. An alternative is to lay out your bottom plate and top plate  at the same time and then add only as many studs as you can handle for a solo lift. For a 16' wall, that would be corner studs, three in the middle and the break stud on the other end. Loosely nail a brace on each end and one to a stud at the center lift point. Raise your five stud wall, dragging the braces up with it, and toenail a couple of studs to hold the bottom in place.

   If you are working off of a poured slab floor tapcon a couple of kicker blocks for the braces to drag over and set against . This will hold the wall up as you squat down to set your toenails. Now go back and nail off your braces, then start filling in the rest of your wall studs.

   That means a lot of up and down work on a ladder, and it is really slow, but it is safe and easily done by a one man crew.

   I work alone most of the time. As I get older I find that the complete wall sections I can lift by myself keep getting shorter. By leaving out studs I can keep the assembly under my lift limit. My legs are a lot more tired at the end of a day from climbing up and down a ladder, but my back isn't torn up from trying to lift to much.

   Working by yourself will make you think out of the box to get the job done.

    

   Dave 

7. 
   Don | Jul 10, 2006 03:25am | #25

   I don't know where you live - but if you have thunderstorms, ask yourself one simple question. "Do I want to bear the expense or time to repair my garage if a bad thunderstorm w/ 80 plus MPH come by & rips the roof off, or do I want to spend the extra $1.25 per joint & extra nails for adding the Simpson clips?" Your answer will tell you what to do. When building for yourself, you should charge your time at about ten cents per hour. It's going to be yours forever; you will bear the costs of repair, rebuild & maintenance on it. We chose to put an extremely expensive Gerard steel roof on our house, guaranteed for sustained winds of 120 mph. It paid for itself the week after we finished it - a wicked thunderstorm came by & ripped roofs off neighbors. Ours had a good washing & a big belly laugh.

   My answer to the question was to install over 200 Simpson clips throughout - took me the better part of a day overall, but I no longer worry about those freak T-storms doing major structural damage to my house.

   Don

   Don Reinhard
   The Glass Masterworks
   "If it scratches, I etch it!"