i’ve read some similar post about osha and insurance companys making life hard for residential framers and builders on this website, but maybe someone can help me here.
it took me years to put together a framing crew like the group of guys that work for me now. good framers but old school like me. the insurance company told me they are going to drop me unless i implement fall protection. their serious so i got to do it. i don’t want to wear a harness so how do i tell my guys to. i figured i’d take small steps and buy the harness and some retractable cables. we wore them for five minutes and nearly killed ourselves. how do you tie off to the peak of a roof, have the cable, which is attached to your back, go over your shoulder, carry plywood up the roof and lay if down, without killing yourself. i brought a the rep out to show him the problem, and he said, don’t matter according to the insurance guys your safer wearing the harness, despite the fact we feel less safe have something restricting us. im really screwed. anyone with help on how to use these things and still be able to roll and how to convince the guys with me that i need them to wear them or i’m out of business.
thanks
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Replies
Ouch, sounds like your ins co is rougher than OSHA...
Have you looked into perimeter protection?? We have guardrail brackets that adjust to any slope. After the first row of sheathing, nail them on with duplex16's and install 2x4 railings. It looks and feels safe, with much less restriction than harnesses.
calvin.
Yeah, perimeter protection is the way to go whenever possible.
Insurance companies often have people who will help you get set up with a program that works for you. They want you to be in compliance; give them a call.
Mike
we have stair brackets and different kinds of "boots" but where did you get a bracket that can go to any angle?
PS - The OSHA guy told me that the National OSHA standards only require toe boards on the roof - not harnesses - if I understood correctly - which I think I did. Apparently OSHA regs are enforced by the state though, and in NC where I live, harnesses or full guard rails are required.
As a point of clarification to an earlier post by someone else, fall protection is required anytime you are working with your feet 6' above the floor/grade/etc. 10' if you are on approved scaffolding. When working on a ladder, you don't need fall protection (strange).
A few ladder rules: You cannot lean an 'A' style ladder against the house and work off it. When an extension ladder is leaned against the roof edge, and is used to access the roof, it must extend 3' above the "climb on surface". 2 people are never allowed on 1 ladder.
Matt
This thread makes me physically ill.
The OSHA guy told me that the National OSHA standards only require toe boards on the roof - not harnesses -
The reason that harnesses AREN'T required is that it can be strongly debated that the setting up of riggings to prevent injuries will often be more hazardous than the actual sheathing operation. My insurance carrier provided me with exact wordage that is needed to "conform" to OSHA regulations. As long as I say the words, on every job, post the written words on every job, and of course follow it, then fall protection is not needed.
The only thing I've changed since reading that is that I require a 4" toeboard on the bottom. Of course, since I use a 2x4 on edge, I'm probably in violation...everything else we have always done was exactly what the carrier recommended. The carrier is endorsed by the NHBA and our local builders association...they aren't off the wall crackpots.
I'll say it again....it's much more dangerous driving to work than it is working there...even without fall protection.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
dont want to be a d$%^ but your missing the point. I said it was bull s%^& climing up to a tie off point then wearing something straped to your back, that staps over your shoulder, then have to carry 50 sheets of osb up the roof and flip it to lay it down, and not get tied up with the f%^^&&* cable. not to mention the tension it has going against you. what i need are ways to get around this. not to mention the hair raising experiences i've had are completly safe because im tied off, and if i were to fall i would only have back tissue screwed as opposed to dieing (according to my safty rep)
Wall, I didn't miss you point. My point it that some of the safety "fixes" are more dangerous than the original problem.
I don't have any solution for your problem other than to seek out a different insurance carrier, one that uses OSHA standards.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
didn't mean to jump the gun. i know you did'nt miss the point. your right about the fact "fixes" are more dangerous than sheeting on a 12/12 pitch anyways. i just don't know what to do because obviously they know how to build a safer and better house from their office in new york city despite the fact that all i've learned over the years don't mean s#$$ because i'm not in thier office to process all the data about framers falling off roofs and killing themselves. besides i'd bet money more framers have died from crushing themselves or others, from forklifts than from falling.
just pissed, sorry blue
Blue, a couple of years ago I took an OSHA class put on by the insurance company. The presenter, a "loss prevention specialist" or some such thing, said that the 4" toe board was a nominal 4", and meant to be a 2x4 on edge instead of just a 2x4 on the flat.
Blue,
Be faster and safer ask me how..
I'll ask if Blue won't..... how?
Hehehe, I wasn't going to ask...
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
safety "bar" for windows is same as handrail height, 42" off floor. capable of withstanding a 250 lb force, i think.
knee rail at 18" off floor if necessary, also capable of withstanding 250 lbs.
if all knee rails (or mid rails), handrail, toeboards, and gates in place on scaffold you don't need 100% tie off on scaffold, if you're over 6 ft.
we had to use a 2 X 6 nailed at a right angle to a 2 X 4 as the very bottom "toe board" on the roof. and then a 2 X 4 nailed on the flat every 8 ft up, i think, from there. in a way it was handy to put the boxes of gun nails and ply clips on.
don't forget about HAZCOM either. you know Material Data Safety Sheets, MDSS's, for any chemicals you have on the job, like WD-40, form oil, nail gun oil.
safety meetings once a week, yes, but you're guys need to sign an attendance sheet and it's gotta have the topic that was covered.
maybe a first aid kit. maybe a fire extinguisher. maybe an eye wash station.
yes, extension ladders need to extend 3 ft. past. they also need to be secured, preferably at the top and bottom.
plan on buying electrical tape colored white, green, red, and orange. OSHA would like for you to inspect your equipment, extension cords especially, and wrap the appropriately colored tape for the season you inspected them. white for winter, green for spring, etc. not to mention GFCI's for you to plug your tools into.
silicosis is going to become the next asbestosis. keep that in mind if you're doing any concrete cutting.
always tie off above your head. if you have a 6 ft. lanyard and tie off at your feet, you will fall 12 ft. before the shock absorber even begins to kick in. and i forgot what kinda stretch is built into those.
once a person falls and is hanging in a harness, you need to get them down in a hurry even if they are conscious. the blood will go bad in the legs because of the body's weight on the leg straps. once out of the harness the bad blood (clot?) travels to the rest of the body.
a lot of the tools in japan have "eyes" because the tools are tied to the workers themselves. keeps a tool from falling on somebody's head. they have chinstraps on their hard hats too.
on a different note, is all this safety stuff interfering with "darwinism"?
Use modern equipment such as rough terrain forklifts with work platforms on them or use manlifts.. They really do speed up production by a significant amount and that speed is with a safer system..
Put roof sheeting on from a work platform and you have the plywood right there and only need to drop it into place and nail while standing with both feet flat on your fall protection.. same with shingles and windows and siding and just about every aspect of building..
While new equipment is expensive if you carefully examine the time savings you will see that the payment for the equipment is less than the money you saved by using the equipment. If you are a part timer there are starting to be a supply of good used forklifts available. Check and see if there is a rent to own option. We rent and apply 100% of the rent towards the purchase. Often that is the way that a young (and broke) company can acquire an expensive piece of equipment..
Since we rent both new and used equipment it's simply a matter of picking out what price point you feel you can afford.. Rent on the most common forklift size used is currently $2000 a month here in Minnesota (everybody is about at that number) while payments on a piece may be under $1000 a month sometimes lower depending on various factors..
Surprisingly some of the greatest savings come at the start of the house while putting the first deck in place..
I was one of the guys who got "hit" by OSHA as described in the other thread.
I decided to take it as just another challenge, and am updating my ways - although as the Super, admittedly it is an easier change for me - or maybe not, since getting other people to do something is sometimes is harder than doing it yourself. Here are some suggestions of a few simple things you can do:
1) As soon as you raise the walls frames, put a 2x4 "safety bar" across each window hole.
2) Always install temp stair rails, especially around stair holes with no stairs in them - as soon as the floor decking is on. I think this is a biggey...
3) Go buy a safety bucket for each of your crew - yourself included. A safety bucket contains a harness, shock absorber, line, and attachment ring. Buying the bucket is significantly cheaper than buying the individual components. Throw in a pair of safety glasses. One of the base OSHA requirements is that you, as the employer buy your guys the safety stuff.
4) Unfortunately, "walking the walls" is out. Temp scaffolding can quickly and easily be set up. See attached pic. In the second pic - ignore where I'm standing - this was before I got "updated" :-)
5) One method to limit fall exposure during tarpaper installation is to run a row of sheathing and then roll out a row of felt... row of sheathing and then a row of felt... etc. This is what got us busted - guys on roof doing tarpaper.
6) get used to wearing a hard hat. And buy one one each of your guys. They are very cheap compared to the price of fines. A little personality can be injected into a hard hat - see attached pic - next post
7) Hold a weekly safety meeting, in which you goo over a list of safety rules and get each attendee to sign the list of rules. Although it will not absolve you of responsibility, it will make your crew more safety conscious, and saving the list of rules/signatures will show OSHA and your insurance company that you are making a good faith effort.
8) Like it or not, you are gonna have to set the example, so wear your safety gear. I'm sure your family will appreciate it too as they probably want you to come home every day.... I think ;-)
Here is a little incentive for you: Typical OSHA fine schedule:
1st offence = $500,
2nd offence = $2,000,
3rd offence = $5,000,
4th offence = out of business.
Matt
PS: while composing this post, the spell checker reminded me that I don't know how to spell "safty"!!! I'm working on that too :-)
Edited 3/4/2005 8:50 am ET by DIRISHINME
I just noticed your "handle" (alias name) - Change it !!! ;-)
Matt
The law here states "every trade shall wear head protection until keys are given to HO". That means trimmers,plumbers,landscapers,etc.
Wonder what the learning curve is on fall protection? What do you tie to when starting sheathing, the ridge board?
I didn't do it....the buck does NOT stop here.
That's pretty strict..OSHA requires hard hats until the space is considered a finished space..ie ceiling installed...
Miller is a big manufacturer of fall protection equipment...check their website..they make a tie-plate that nails down to the ridge beam or other structural members that allow life-lines to be fastened to..just remember..each worker must have his/her own life-line..and each tie plate must resist 5000lb of pull and can only handle one life-line...check out http://www.majorsafety.com/category.cfm?Category=32&CFID=567287&CFTOKEN=68845969
You can call your insurance co for a voluntary site inspection..these inspection are not for violations, they are for educational purposes only..
http://www.esc-safety.com provides "Tool Box Safety" talks...these are sheets that discuss one topic of safety each and have a sign in sheet. They are available in Spanish as well..we use them on every one of our jobs...
Edited 3/4/2005 4:24 pm ET by MJLONIGRO
thanks
i want to be safe but still be able to get work done, so i'll try some of these things and maybe be "somewhat in compliance"
thanks for the tips
I hear you..... loud and clear. I think we are in very similar situations with our framing outfits. Trying to be OSHA compliant..... but not losing our guys in the process. Trying to be OSHA compliant, but not breaking the bank by becoming much less efficient. Trying to be OSHA compliant, and not pricing ourselves out of the market to make up for being slowed down with the set up, purchase and working around all of these devices.
Now, saying that much at all about OSHA around here is enough to start a brand new flame war. The general concensus around here is 100% compliance, or you must not give a rat's azz about your workers. There's really not much grey area in the mindset around here on this one.
I bought a harness this summer before I had a forklift and workplatform. I was trimming out a large dormer that had a good deal of trim detail on it, and it all had to be done in the air. (As opposed to trimming out while it's still laying on the deck.) I wanted to be comfortable and safe up there and concentrate on the trim at rather than having my primary focus be on not hitting the ground.
Truth is..... it's tough to get used to the harness.... especially on the roof. While I'll probably never hit the ground while wearing one, the chances of taking a minor spill are greatly increased. The rope is always in the way on a roof. It gets tangled while trying to swing a piece of sheathing into place. It is always underfoot.... just behind your heal because of the way it attaches to the harness. Walking up the roof is easy, but coming down sukks. You have to free up a hand to let the rope back out of the catch..... that leaves you with one less hand to steady yourself with or grab onto the upper toe boards with. I'm still not used to it. I'd have to say that I'll probably never wear it again for sheathing a roof unless I'm forced to. I'm currently looking into guard rail systems for the roof edge and the wall brackets.
What we can do is alot of common sense stuff. Use the work platform on the machine safely. Put up rails around the stair holes and sets. Put a rail across window openings. WEAR SAFETY GLASSES.... that oughta be a no-brainer for comfort's sake alone. Hard hats..... I'm working on it. They always end up in a pile in the corner of the frame. I don't see that one happening. Truth is.... anything that is gonna hit me on a framing site is gonna hurt with or without the hard hat and unless it's got a chin strap, I don't see it staying on for very long when a 2X10 falls off the top plate and squashes my grape. I also make sure none of the saws and guns are modified and all the extension cords are in good shape.
To me, 100% OSHA compliance isn't going to happen over night. I keep it as a goal for our company to continuously strive to achieve. I'll continue to push compliance on the crew and I'll continue to purchase newer and safer equipment. Just keep at it I guess.
Keep poundin' bro.
i appreciate all you said and it is an ongoing battle.
you said you bought a harness but this was before you had a lift and workplatform. I have had a lift for some years now and also have a 14' platform (i should probably post some pictures sometime) but it doesn't matter. we still have to scramble around the roof which means we also need harnesses. it does help though when doing some things like building a dormer where you can do it all from the basket. anyways good luck to you too.
could do what i saw a roofing co. do.they have 2 guys,one has a rope tied around his waist the other sits on the other side of the peak holding it.mobile that way...... i'm sure you can find a diagram in the osha book. larryhand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
When I was working for my last boss we has an OSHA incident and that was exactly their prescription..... the guy sheathing the roof should have a "cable man". Someone who sat, tied off, to the ridge and who's sole job was to move the installer's ropes and hose out of the way for him.
Sure, why not? There's plenty of fat in new construction framing, right? Why not double the labor involved to sheath a roof.... I'm sure the GC will be thrilled to whip out his checkbook for that.
I like your forum name.... it suits that suggestion nicely. No offense meant, but that is exactly what I was talking about in my previous post.... trying to find the balance between the "do-able" and the "unrealistic" in the market we're in.
thanks for the tip
i've always used a hatchet to trim casing, i think a chainsaw might give me a tighter joint.
thanks
Dieselpig,
I agree with you and your post reminds me of a story a friend told me. I think I've posted it before, but here it is.
He owned a roofing company and this was years ago. They are doing a job and one guy falls off the roof. He wasn't hurt, but his buddy insisted on tieing off. So Larry gets him the harness and rope. This guy is happy up there tied off. Someone calls for lunch and this guy climbs down the ladder and gets about 4' away from the ladder and the rope goes taut. He got razzed the rest of the day because had he fallen, he would've bounced
That story is a classic. Doesn't do any good to have the right gear, if you don't know what you are doing with it. :-)
The Japaneese have a requirement of using chin straps on hard hats.. perhaps we can learn from them?
'cause the think they look cool...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
As a recreational bicyclist, I wear a helmet whenever I ride. I know that helmet is next to useless unless the chin strap is closed. Whether hard hats are similar, I don't know. The bike helmet is supposed to protect my brains when I hit the road at 30 or 50 mph, so there might be some benefit to it staying put during an extended slide. Construction hard hats, I think, are designed to protect from a one time impact from above, so the dynamics are different.Andy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
The purpose of the chin strap is so that as you lean over the hat doesn't fall off, and to hold a relatively light hat on in the wind thus freeing up a hand for work..
Please look at using modern equipment. It will more than pay for itself in time saved, and the safety aspect is a bonus..
I spent a lot of years working on industiral jobs for contractors who attempted to be in 100% compliance with OSHA regulations. My understanding is that you have to be tied off when your above 6 feet, and there is a "clear fall" you could access the ground through. So some type of handrail system along the edge of the roof should eliminate any clear fall. Run the first row of plywood off a scaffold or ladders. Set up your handrail the full length of the run, and sheath on up. You shouldn't need to be tied off with something like that.
If you stop and think about it, there are lots of ways that framers could do their jobs and be in compliance with OSHA regs. They'd take a lot longer, and cost more money, true. But those are the same arguments that the big construction companies made when OSHA first cracked down on them. But the realized that if everyone had to spend the same money, keeping the playing field even, that safe work conditions have their own reward. You don't often see a man get killed on a residential project, but I've been on many big jobs where men died.
If any one of you had one of your men fall and get killed, no matter what the reason, and you had to call and tell his wife, you'd realize right then that the extra few minutes it takes to do something safely is worth it. Even if it takes longer to set up than to do the actual work, it's part of the job, and something you should be getting paid for.
I'm working on a McMansion, doing pick-up framing right now. I doubt if any of the carpenters I'm working with have ever been to any kind of safety meeting, or attended any kind of safety training. Safety is seldom mention on the job. "Be careful" is the extent of safety awareness. Pretty typical of residential construction, from what I've seen.
Allen in Santa Cruz
I'm not sure how ya direst a thread to someone specific ...
but I remember Dieselpig talking about geting used to wearing a harness.
try to flag him down or email him him for some ideas.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
Whenever you feel that your safety gear is uncomfortable. Remember Larry the Stable boy.
Free Sancho!