Custom home framers needed in Wilmington NC. Bi-Lingual Preferred. Tools and RELIABLE Transportation a must.
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You need framers?
Yes, I need framers with little to moderate experience in the Wilmington area. Tools and Reliable transportation is a must. Do you need work? If so, I prefer to have references for you. Where have you been working, with who, and for how long? How much experience do you have. I do mid to high-end custom work: framing, exterior trim, interior trim, decks and anything else to make a dollar. 2/3 of the crew speak little to no english. Still interested?Mike
Give us a low to high hourly rate expectation, please.
Sorry its taken so long for me to get back to you. Seeing as I am looking for little to moderate experienced framers/siders/trim carpenters, I would say that anywhere between 8-15 dollars an hour would be about right. Of course, it depends on experience, dependability, and the ability to work with my existing crew. The last is the most important. You could have all the experience in the world, and only be able to put blocks in all day because of communication problems.
2/3 of the crew speak little to no english.
Any Green cards, or illegals only?
Joe H
so let me get this straight, you want guys that are reliable, bi-lingual, tools, and transportation with little to moderate experience and you are willing to pay 8 to 15 dollars per hour?
do you plan to withhold taxes or will you 1099?
what tools are required? tool belt and hammer? level? saw? nail gun and compressor?
do you carry workers comp?
do the people that buy your homes know that you advertise for employees with little to moderate experience?
do you tell your customers that you do little to moderate quality work, or high end?
Ok, First things first. The reason I don't need higher qualified help is because I already have three good carpenters. My customers know that while I am framing their roof, there need to be laborers to support that system. Do you know any crews that don't carry help with little to moderate experience, or better yet, were you a high-end carpenter right out of the womb? Framing is a skill, to some it is inherent, to some it is learned. I want to pass my knowledge the old fashioned way of working side by side with your teacher. The same way I have learned. And yes, I am willing to pay 8-15 dollars an hour for the right person/people.I am building homes that range from $400,000 and up. I don't need to tell my customers anything. My work and my professionalism speaks for itself.
and those three good carpenters are the ones that don't speak english?
do you speak spanish?
do you withhold or 1099?
it says in your post in response to a question that you do "mid to high end custom work"?
in my opinion a good framer with 2 years experience (little to moderate experience) should get 12-14 per hour in this area, especially for a "mid to high end builder"
if i am wrong about you i apologize, but i am betting that your non english speaking employees are illegal, and that you are paying them less than you would have to pay a legal citizen of this country and that you are pocketing the difference.
and you have the gaul to ask for more of the same here on this forum!
Please note.....I am not advocating that anyone should be hiring illegals. (In the trades or elsewhere.)
But you do realize that your $12-$14 range falls within his $8-$15?
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
i just thought the 8 was way to low, there was nothing wrong with the "up to 15" part.
again i am reading between the lines, and i may be the one who is out of line, but i am betting that mike from oceanestatesbuilders inc is employing illegals because they speak little or no english and he stresses that communication with them is of the utmost importance for his new hires as "they could have all the experience in the world but only be able to put blocks in because they can't communicate".
this to me indicates that he is prioritizing keeping his low paid spanish speaking employees over any new english speaking only employees regardless of ability/experience because he is making so much money on the spanish speakers.
i am betting they are illegal. there are many contractors who do this all over the country, i do not/have not/will not, and would like to see those that do penalized.
and in response to all as i think about it, i don't have a problem with immigrants being legal or illegal per se, i think that anyone that wants to work ought to be able to legally do so.
i just think that anyone that does work should be paid a living wage for the area so that there is no advantage to hiring someone you cannot communicate with.
and in other words i have no problem competing to see who will do the best work, or the fastest (most efficient not low quality) work. i have a problem with people in MY country doing MY work with less quality and for much less money.
its bad enough that we have sent many jobs overseas where labor is cheaper. do we have to bring cheaper (in every sense of the word) labor here to do OUR work. is that really who you want building your house?
"there are many contractors who do this all over the country, i do not/have not/will not, (hire illegals) and would like to see those that do penalized."
I couldn't agree more.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
Ok, First things first.
OK, how about an answer to my question, are your other employees here legally or are they illegals?
You skipped answering this so I'm guessing they are illegals.
Joe H
thank you joe, that was what i was hoping for, not that it will do any good, but i was hoping to see some posts from people in here asking the hard questions with a little more tact than i am capable of on this subject.
and i was hoping to "feel" some support. thanks
Still no reply....
Maybe Immigration stopped by his job site & took the lot of them away?
Joe H
I have a lot less tact than you have,tauton press wouldn't post what I'd really like to say on this subject.By the way Segundo.I agree with you.
mike
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/30/nyregion/nyregionspecial2/30njCOVER.html
here is an article, the response to some of the interview questions are just what i have been saying. the guy who moved up from field work, to turkey plant food processing, to construction, with hopes of becoming a contractor. and then another response by a shop owner who doesn't understand why everyone is so upset at the immigrant's when they (immigrants) do the jobs nobody wants.
hello! the immigrants don't want those jobs either, they will do them just long enough to get a better job! if the immigrants weren't available the wages would go up and citizens would take them!
you people out there employing non citizens should be the first to take the hit when the competition from immigrant contractors cause the price to go down. and conversely, if you are willing to defend a poor small contractor hiring immigrants because (the excuses) he can't find any decent citizen workers etc etc, how do you feel about me becoming a subcontractor and underbidding the poop out of you by employing massive amounts of cheap immigrants and making money off of them both ways by buying slum houses and renting to the undocumented who work for me at exorbitant rates.
in other words where do you draw the line?
1. its ok to use a non citizen because he is a little bit better worker and i pay him well.
2. its ok to use non citizens because i am a small contractor just starting out and im trying to build up the business a little before i go legit and pay the help living wages.
3. its ok to use non citizens and exploit them to the fullest extent. pay them as cheap as possible, sometimes cheat them, charge them high rent for shacks as a condition of employment, knowingly put matching tax withholding in your pocket.
even a little exploitation is wrong. if there is an advantage to using employees that are not citizens is that not, by the using of that advantage, the definition of the word exploitation?
and yes i'm dropping the pretext of legal. i don't care if they are legal or not, i am sick of the excuses that people give. it is to easy to get phony paperwork and to hard to check. if they don't speak the national language don't employ them untill they do.
Hey Joe, Sorry I haven't been on for a while and replied to you or replied back to Segundo. Actually, my guys are legal and pay taxes. As far as how much I pay my carpenters, my good carpenters, who are not lead men, are paid 15 and 16 dollars per hour. They both have about 3-4 years experience. As far as the 8 dollar an hour range, that is reserved for the guys that come in with no- to little-experience. (laborers). My good carpenters do speak some english and two of them are taking English classes and the others learn all the jobsite words and numbers in English, but just as if you lived in another country, your native tongue is more comfortable. The last time I checked, I don't think I advertised for illegals and I posted a notice just to see what kind of people were living in Wilmington or seeking work here. I do speak Spanish, not fluently though. There are some times when I have trouble communicating with my guys with some of the more difficult aspects of my job. I took a combination of about 6 years of Spanish in school, and lived in Spain for a semester. So there is my background. I have been training my guys for a while, and have invested a significant amount of time and money in my crew. The accusation that I am profiteering from my "illegal workers" is absurd. I am a fairly new business, looking to make the turn from loss to profit and haven't seen it yet. I have had three non-spanish speaking people and they just didn't jive. When I spoke to the spanish speaking members, I would have to say it again in English. Which isn't really a problem for one or two instances, but all day it is counterproductive. Also, their work ethic did not match mine. I am a Marine (No longer active duty or reserve) and my work ethic is intense. So the three workers I did have just didn't jive in the group. I am not looking for just hispanic workers, and if I was, do you guys think I would post a notice here?
No. I would put an ad in the local hispanic newspaper, or in the CentroLatino. (An advocacy group for local Hispanics.)It is not the simple fact to hire illegals, I don't want illegals. I want good workers. Period. The whole Bi-lingual thing, if I remember was preferred, not required. What I am really on the look out for is some one else a lot like me, who I can train and eventually give a crew to. So before you guys are so quick to judge somebody, give it some thought, and a little bit of respect. Mike
Ocean State Builders, Inc.
Semper Fi
Mike,I think some people here owe you an apology for their inhospitability and their rush to judge you unfairly. Hope you stick around and add to the collective wisdom....fellow Tar Heel
I don't see what the problem is with wanting bilingual help. How many guys that speak english only would be willing to learn spanish to get a job ? It would sure as h*ll put a person in a better position if they would. Instead people here are harping about illegals and implying unprofessional work ethics.
Vive la vida. Just because someone posts an ad looking for bilingual hep that does not mean they want illegals, or even immigrants. They simply want someone who can speak two languages.
I have a mixed crew and if I could find some bilingual whites it would be great. I haven't found any yet. The bilinguals I find are legal status immagrants. I have legal status spanish only employees as well as english only american citizens.
The guys who give me the most value are the bilingual ones. Too bad that elimates all the Americans.
The last time I checked, people start their own business in hopes of fulfilling their financial dreams. If that means using cheap employees there is nothing wrong with that.
A good paying job is not a birth right. You have to work for it.
KirkpatrickFramer,Obviously there is some level of bitterness in the people who have responded so furiously and accusatory to my posting. I don't want cheap labor, I want good, serious, hard working help. Here in North Carolina, as I am sure it is everywhere, the construction labor pool is not exactly filled with the cream of the crop. There are a lot of undesirables. First I wonder if Segundo realizes that his screen name is Spanish. Then I wonder why he has got it out for me, I don't remember doing anything to him. Also I wonder if he harasses all of the help wanted ads in the local papers when they advertise for bilingual help. I come from Providence,Rhode Island, where being bilingual is a huge help. I worked in a Hardware Store while I was in College where I would say that 75% of the people spoke a language other than English. There was Spanish, Vietnamese, Laotion, Swahili, German, Arabic...the list goes on. The store owners wanted bilingual and even trilingual help, not to pay them less, but to offer the best service to their customers and in turn to their employess. That has been my business model, to provide a welcoming atmosphere.Sure I want to make money, who doesn't. Theres a saying we always said in the Marine Corps and that is "adapt and overcome." If we as Americans could all do that it would be a much better place.Thanks for your kind commentsMike
Ocean State Builders, Inc.
Semper Fi
This question is addressed to Both you & Kirkpatrick Framer,When you advertise for bilingual help,then hire, how do you check if the new employee is legal or not?
Have had more then 80% of the(non english or bilingual) new hires that we have had in the past 3 years had to be let go after we did a CBI background check & found out the the documents were null & void.
i apologize profusely, i said in the very beginning that i posted to the tavern to get some feedback on this subject before i said the wrong thing. i was reading between the lines, and i have questions about the ethics of employing from a cheaper labor pool. it is something i struggle with myself, and am resistant to do yet frequently tempted.
your employees are legal entrants to this country? don't you have to have a job first to get a work visa? did you look at that paperwork? none of my business i know, i also know how tough it is to try to run a business do all the labor and check the paperwork.
i also understand about the construction labor pool not being cream of the crop, but i think there is a relationship there with the wages being offered. would you mike work for 16 an hour? anybody that can do the work wants to be the contractor, and just starting out trying to turn it into a profit at first is a tough proposition. i don't have it out for you personally, it is the system. if i "adapt and overcome", i will use every angle to maximize my profit from my employees. i have conscience problems that limit my business success, however the quality of the product is incredible.
i want you to keep in mind that using the immigrant labor pool contributes to the overall problem, and in a booming construction market the wages just keep getting lower. how long before your employees are contractors and underbidding you for work? the furious responses are a result of this happening. remember i started in southern california have seen its results and migration to this area. i am also a former marine who works at an intense pace and has no trouble competing in production and quality, i just have a problem making less now than 20 years ago.
semper fidelis is latin for always faithful, and implies a higher level of integrity and honor. something that is sorely missing in modern american business practices.
SegundoThanks for the apology, but next time you shouldn't jump to such conclusions. As well as I know you, you know me, and thats only by impersonal words on a computer screen.As for me, If I couldn't lay out walls, figure out a roof, or had to ask questions about things we do everyday, then yes I would love $16/Dollars an hour. My guys are far from lead men, but great carpenters. Not because of their vast knowledge, but because of the level of quality that they posess. Do I think that I could get undercut by cheaper contractors. Sure, but thats when quality and professionalism step in. I am a firm believer of you get what you pay for, as are the GC's that I work for. If I am put out of business because of people undercutting me, thats the breaks. I can either adapt and overcome, or leave the game completely.
Oh, I forgot something. Aren't most of us part of the immigrant labor pool? And here in Wilmington, I pay damn well for the experience that my guys have. I don't know where you live/work, but it is above average.Thanks
Mike
Well said Mike. I live in Houston and let's put it this way, I used to listen to a radio station that played album rock for over 30 years. Then one day I get in my truck and it is spanish !!!
Our spanish speaking population is taking over, but I won't be left behind. I learn spanish and treat the speakers with respect. Of course there are times when I go to a job and everyone there is hispanic and they hold me in contempt for some reason.
I pay anyone who works for me top dollar on the local scale, and all I expect is quality.
Good carpenters don't even need to speak to each other to get stuff done. Anyway, everyone have a nice weekend because Monday is going to be chaos !!
I said nothing, and yet feel I need to.
Carry on man, carry on.
Our "Los Guys" are the bee's knees...they fund my job by being them when my time is short..I love em, like a brother.
There is no Us and them, we all gotta eat.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Damm, I miss that stuff
i too may have been way better off if i had said nothing. i certainly may have said the wrong things. again thats why i posted in the tavern first, to get a response and to think out why i had that feeling in my gut.
i think mike from ocean estate has still left some questions unanswered. those questions may well be unfair, none of my or our business, but still those are the questions that i get all torqued about.
has he done a thorough background check to see if they are legal to work? did they enter the country legally and then just stay after the work visa expired? he says my guys pay taxes, but does he 1099 or do withholding? clearly mike values his current spanish speaking employees above the english speaking employees he has been able to get, according to his posts. the reasons for this are? they are cheaper, work harder, put up with more gruff from the boss with his "intense ex marine work pace"and the final question is it ethical and moral to employ theses workers? yeah there are lots of guys doing it, and it is technically against the law if they are not legal entrants, but nobody enforces it.
but is it the right thing to do? i myself grapple with this question. historically the immigration door in this country has been tied to the economy, specifically with mexico during WW II we were taking all we could get to produce for the war effort, then the bum's rush outa here after the war, then creeping back in as the economy took off and could absorb the workers.
and here is my beef, there are too many. they cannot be acclimated or absorbed into our culture. i took my family camping on 4th of july 2004. we went to an area near where my ancestors pioneered, the foothills of the sequoia national forest in CA. at the campsite a former KOA now privately owned, they filled the place with mexicans who camped in tents and cars. at the campsite were public toilets and showers. in each of the toilet stalls were cardboard boxes filled with toilet paper covered with feces! when i politely complained to the management they informed me that the immigrants would not put paper in the toilets because where they were from the toilets wouldn't flush if you put paper in. management put boxes in the stalls because if they didn't it would be piled on the floor. they tried signs in spanish but it didn't work, they just put up with it for the busy holiday weekend then cleaned up.
i guess this is my point, with the current numbers, we are being absorbed by them. where i am from, with my familiarity of the culture and language i would have a distinct advantage if i were to exploit it. how do you think i got my nickname? i have a problem exploiting people. i don't want to take advantage of cheaper harder workers to make my company more money, because of what it does to my country. adapt and overcome? yeah i am more adapted than most, i have seen the future for the rest of the country and i am here to tell you it stinks!
Hey, I agree. Back to the Tavern I'll a go-go.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Damm, I miss that stuff
Dude, let it go. He doesn't need to explain his entire business to you or anyone else here. I think you're a little paranoid about this whole thing. I'm just not getting a bad vibe from OceanState....... does he really need to go back through all of your finger pointing, accusing, and down right insulting posts and individually answer every one of your questions? I think he's done a perfectly acceptable job of explaining himself.
The guy was gracious enough to let you down easy the first time around. How 'bout you shut your trap before you end up eating your own foot again?View Image
hey i was being nice, you are absolutely right, he does not need to explain anything to me.
as i said i am struggling with the very questions i am asking him! i talk it over with my wife and friends and here on this forum. so far my decision is not to employ anyone i suspect is not quite legal.
i dont get a bad vibe from him either, just another poor working man trying to make it in today's tough economy, i feel for him. i am just trying to have a discussion that hopefully we all can learn from.
i never ate my foot, i apologized to begin with when i read between the lines. but if it looks like a duck.... i am sure there are enough reading this to get that and what about your employees diesel? would you stand up to an official investigation? it seems like you are taking it awfully personal. i am sure mike can stand up for himself.
LOL..... now it's my turn huh?
All right, I'll play along. Would my employees stand up to an official investigation? Yes, I believe they would. In the past I had a guy working for me and about four months after I filed taxes that year I got a letter from the IRS stating that the SS number he gave me was not valid. The letter also specifically told me to NOT confront the employee on this issue and that they would pass the information along to the proper authorities. It didn't even address how I was supposed to handle the situation.
Did I turn him into immigration on my own? No way. Kid was just trying to feed his family and I can't say I would have done any different if I were in his shoes. What I did was let him go and explain to him that he needs to get his affairs in order or sooner or later he's going to get an unwanted knock on his door.
The guys I have now on work visas have both been through two tax seasons with me without any letters from the IRS, so I guess I've made a leap in assuming that their papers are legit. I have copies of their driver's licenses, their visas, and their pass ports. If it's good enough for the IRS, it's good enough for me. Like it or not, the burden of proof is on our government and not on me. That's what all those tax dollars I pay are for. I'm a small fry. Do I run extensive background checks? Yeah right. I've got the time and money to do that, right? Get real. Do you?
You want the truth dude? Here it is. I really don't have a problem with immigrant labor. Even illegals. HA HA HA. Bet that burns your ####. I don't hire them because I value my business and don't want to end up in any hot water. But I'm a human first and an American second. I understand why these guys are here and I understand what it is they're trying to do. What I do have a problem with is guys paying them short money because they're illegals. That problem to me is two fold. The first is that these human beings aren't properly covered under W/C so if they get badly injured, they may be SOL. The second is that I believe someone doing a job, any job, deserves a fair wage.... regardless of their status. Equal pay for equal work. So you see, the issue I take with immigrant labor is more of a humanitarian stance than a government/political stance.
Here's the sad truth..... I have had a tremendously difficult time successfully hiring and training "American" workers for my crew. And it didn't matter what I paid them or where I found them. I don't believe that they don't exist, I just haven't had much luck finding them. I pay above average wages to my guys regardless of what their first language is. I personally don't really even understand how their language even factors into the wage equation. Will I hire an American worker? You betcha, got one right now in fact. But they have to meet the same qualifications as the other guys on my crew..... and they need to leave their baggage at home. In fact I think my little business is a good case study. I try to hire good people who want to learn and work hard. That's my only agenda when hiring. I don't specifically hire Americans and I don't specifically hire immigrants. I hire workers.
The only issue I have with this whole topic is business owners and contractors who hire illegals on the cheap. I think it's bad for my business, it's bad for the economy, and it's just a morally reprehensible thing to do. That's my beef.
You, Segundo, are all over the place. You point fingers like you're in charge of a witch hunt. Then when you calm down, you apologize for jumping to conclusions. Then to make matters worse, it sounds like you're as tempted as anybody to go for the fruit of the forbidden tree?!?! Make up your mind about where you stand. You want to put your microscope on me? Go for it. But clean up your own backyard because you're starting to sound like quite the hypocrite and I'm even beginning to sense a bit of guilty conscience in there somewhere.
Do I take this all somewhat personally? Yeah a little bit. I love the two guys that work for me and happen to be here on visas. They're good men. They work hard and they keep their noses clean. They show up, produce, and make good money. Then they turn around and spend that money on the right things. Sound like good people don't they? My lead man is 29 years old. He's been here for 5 years. He speaks good English, drives a late model Ford Explorer, takes good care of his wife and two kids, and is currently saving for a downpayment on his first house. Not bad for five years, huh?
A guy comes in here and says that his crew's primary language is something other than English and you automatically assume a laundry list of violations? If I'm not mistaken that's called a bunch of things...... profiling, stereo typing, racism, and oh yeah.... one more. Ignorance. Why do I take issue? Because I run a legitimate business and yet still you'll often hear Portuguese being spoken on my sites. Does that mean I have to stand up to higher scrutiny from a Bozo like you than a guy with an all American crew? I don't think so. What's to stop thee American guy from paying his American workers under the table? What's the difference? There's as much of that going on as there is abuse of immigrant labor. But that doesn't seem to bother anyone too much, now does it?
"I'm trying to have a discussion we all can learn from" Bullsh2t. Sell that to someone who's buying. I sure ain't. And if you didn't eat your foot..... you should have. You were wrong to accuse that guy of all that crap. And when he didn't log in for a few days you start clapping yourself on the back like his absence is indicative of his guilt. I think you're the one who needs to clean up your act.View Image
Man. tween you and Cat skinner, I have a fence to be on.
good diatribe.
segundo pulls out a feeling in me, But I am not gonna jump on any boat that leaks..and I'd rather be happy on the edge of decision, than make the wrong one, in this case.
Ok, back to my shut up.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Damm, I miss that stuff
>>>>>>>>>>But I'm a human first and an American second.Good post, but I have a hard time seeing why these two items have to be prioritized. In my mind they are one and the same (or at least should be).Why is it every time I need to get somewhere, I get waylaid by jackassery?
http://grantlogan.net/
I can understand that seeyou. And I agree that they should be one in the same..... but my own personal experience says that this is not always true. I'm sorry if you don't agree with that, but it's just my opinion.
My point was that everyone gets so up in arms about contractors paying illegals under the table. But it doesn't seem to bother anyone when it's an American contractor paying American guys under the table and not covering them the proper insurance. I'm not saying that it doesn't actually bother anyone..... but you sure don't hear as much complaining about it.
Me? I'm an equal opportunity basher. I don't care what color, size, or shape your illegal workers are.... I still think you're dirty. It bothers me when I sense that the beef people really have isn't with underpaid illegal workers.... it's with foreign underpaid illegal workers. And that's why I say I'm a human first and an American second.
I also take issue with the judging going on. I don't think one has the right to make assumptions about the character of a business owner based soley on the fact that a language other than English is spoken on his sites. That's stereotyping and yes, I've been the subject of this in the past. People automatically assume that if you've got different colored workers than you're not working above the board. Different language? Hmmmmmm, must be under paying them, not paying insurance, getting rich of their backs, not paying taxes, etc. It's a heck of a leap and a pretty unfair one at that. I see it as a personal attack on one's character. So yes, I take it personally. I've got two Brazilian guys who's first language is Portuguese..... and I pay a sh1tload of taxes, a sh1tload in insurance premiums, a sh1tload of payroll, and I sure as he1ll ain't getting rich anytime soon. If I'm making good money, it's because I'm out there sweating, bleeding, and swatting nails right along side of them for 60 hours a week. No one has the right to take that fact away from me.
I'm proud to work along side these guys. They appreciate the simple satisfaction that comes with a good days pay for a good days work. I spend a substantially greater amount of time with these guys every week than I spend with my own wife. I'm proud of them and I'm proud of what they're making of themselves. Maybe it's because I started out with nothing myself, but I just have a ton of respect for anyone who is 'self-made'. If someone is going to challenge the legitimacy or the morality of the relationship I have with these guys, then they are in for a fight. And right or wrong, I've only ever gone down one way...... swinging.
View Image
Edited 4/29/2006 10:41 am ET by dieselpig
I'm just saying that's the way it ought to be with everyone I guess. I've got a friend that used to work with me that is of Hispanic descent and has a Mexican sounding name. Did numerous tours of duty in Vietnam and can't speak a word of Spanish. Has an English degree. It embarasses me the number of times that I heard something like "look, they're using dirty Mexicans on our roof", just based on the color of his skin. Keep swinging, man.Why is it every time I need to get somewhere, I get waylaid by jackassery?
http://grantlogan.net/
LOL... sorry about that dude. That was way more information than you asked for. But the wheels started spinning, the mouth started going, the fingers were flying...... and you were just sorta "cyber-standin' there". My bad. ;)View Image
Don't you apologize, that was well done. Verbosity for the sake of it is one of my Forte'es, But you actually said something you hold dear, rock on( I hate the cliche', but it fits well for you).
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Damm, I miss that stuff
i never accused anyone of anything, all i did was ask questions. i have never made any judgements, and as you said i am tempted to go after the forbidden fruit, i can see where i could make more money but should i do that.
you said that the burden of proof is with the govt. and that the only reason you don't break the law is so you don't get into hot water, me i will be the first to admit i have no problem breaking a law i don't feel is ethical or moral, of course i would speak out in attempt to change it. i am more likely to do what i feel is right than i am to comply out of fear of "hot water"
and in response to other suggestions of racial or ethnic bias, i am not a racist, i don't care if your white, black, yellow, red, orange, or brown, the color i am worried about is green. i feel that more and more in this country the middle class is shrinking. i think that the predominant slavery of the 21st century will be economic.
i have personal issues with the immigration flood on two points, 1. i have seen my trade devalued by a flood of cheap immigrant labor, and 2. i said no to the opportunity to take advantage of a situation where i could have made more money because i felt it was wrong. so i, unlike you, did not get a letter from the IRS telling me what i already knew(or assumed at least), that the soc sec # was a fake. i don't know if that was the correct decision it felt right at the time but i still question it.
i think thats why you are taking it personally, because you are feeling guilty or angry that you have done something that you felt was not wrong and yet illegal.
the last thing i would do would be to tell someone in here to let it go, or to try to influence to stop anyone from disscussing a point. in posting my ideas and reading others posts i have learned. if you have not learned anything then you must already know it all!
LOL.... well I guess you've got me all figured out then. Enjoy your delusions.View Image
So, aside form having to defend himself, has oceanstatebuilderinc found any carpenters?
No, I haven't. To be honest, I don't think I will ever post a help wanted again here. Like I said, I was just looking to see what was out there, and I figured if they were cruising this website, they would be somewhat top notched carpenters or quality conscious people, ...not top notch a**holes.Thanks everybody for the support. Segundo, I don't care what you think or say. The simple fact that you can't comprehend the need for helpers with little to no experience says it all for me. I should have ignored you to begin with.Mike
No help yet?
OK, I'll be in <!----><!----><!---->Highpoint<!---->, <!---->NC<!----><!----> for the 90th birthday of my wife's grandmother last week of September and first week of October. <!----><!----><!---->
I am 51, but my hispanic framers really do call me Maestro when it comes to solving framing problems and giving them direction. I started in 1971 and framed regularly through the 80s. I design many of the homes we build and the framers like the plan becasue they are framer friendly, with details that limit questions. <!----><!---->
Although I am mainly involved in mangement of a custom homebuilding business, I am still capable and work around my property in various capacities. I'll bring my tools, spend a week with the family and help you for a week. Framing was always like a sport to me. I still like to do it. <!----><!---->
I'll bring a builder in training who is like a son to me. He is the hardest working employee I have ever had, and has about 10 years of framing experience.
Make sure there are plenty of materials on site, and we will be there.
With exception of the custom homes, he framed everything on our website http://www.brotherscustomworks.com His pic is on the Design and Consulting page, working hard as usual framing a backyard pavilion.
Seriously, I would love to do something like that, meet new people, make new friends, see other parts of the country and see the work culture first hand, but the wife would kill me.
exactly the response i would expect from a know it all
Well whaddya wanna do Segundo?
"You're guilty".
"No, you're guilty".
"No you're really guilty".
You wanna go around the horn one more time? Your response to me was a 'hunt and peck' of my posts with dozens of things taken out of context and twisted to fit your argument. How am I supposed to respond to you if you're not even going to shoot straight?
A "know it all"? That was pretty lame Segundo. I'm sure you can do better than that 3rd grade crap. But I've been wrong before......
exactly the response i would expect
LOL.... like I said...... I guess you've got me all figured out then. Thanks for making my point for me.
View Image
You wanna go around the horn one more time? Your response to me was a 'hunt and peck' of my posts with dozens of things taken out of context and twisted to fit your argument. How am I supposed to respond to you if you're not even going to shoot straight?
i can say the same of you, but at least this part of your response avoids the 3rd grade stuff. i think as i look at the other side of what you say i find we are basically agreed that we don't like to see humans exploited yes?
i still say like i did at my first post that i have a problem with as request for employees that are bi-lingual. the first conclusion i jump to is that they are illegal. if that is the wrong conclusion i am sorry but can you blame me for thinking that may be the case? if i am wrong for thinking like that then my bad, but i have seen it happen a lot and so there is the knee jerk reaction.
and what i am saying is that i expect to see more in the future, to the point where a majority of construction in this country is performed by cheap imported workers, just like it is now in parts of cali. even that work not performed by cheap imported workers will be devalued by their presence.
this is what bothers me, this is why i have a problem, this is why i don't appreciate you asking me to let it go, as if to censure or limit my input on this manner. this request for the end of my free speech by you is the most grievous violation of rights expressed by anyone in any of the posts on this manner in my opinion
hows that for straight shootin hoss
hows that for straight shootin hoss
Much better actually. But this part is a little over the top, "this request for the end of my free speech by you is the most grievous violation of rights expressed" don't ya think?
You seem to think I have a problem with you taking issue with illegal labor. I don't. And I never said I do. All I originally told you was to stop barking up that particular tree. There just wasn't anything there to bark at. Or at least there wasn't any decent evidence of it. The guy's crew speaks Spanish....... the only fair conclusion I can see drawing from that statement is that....... the guys crew speaks Spanish.
I hardly think I trampled on your civil rights. Nor do I disagree with very much of your position on the entire topic. I just think that the original poster wasn't getting a very fair trial here in the court of public opinion. You then basically told me to butt out, mind my own business, and to stop defending him out of my own guilt and let him defend himself. Fair enough. But play by your own rules. Remember that you started all this malarky by posing the question to the entire forum phrased something like, "anyone else bothered by this type of stuff". That's not really a fair fight now is it? You get to do your best to round up a lynch mob but no one else is allowed to defend the other side of the coin. You can't ask for public opinion on a matter and then tell everyone who views it differently to 'butt out'. So I guess I also took issue with that as well.
Anyway, no blood, no foul. Just opinions from different perspectives. And you know what they say about opinions, right?View Image
well i couldn't agree with that more, the opinions thing.
and i didn't try to round up a lynch mob any more than i tried to get someone to say chill to begin with, which you did with your first post, and then i promptly ignored you.
yes the only fair conclusion is the guys crew speaks spanish, and on top of everything else going on in the economy and construction and immigration anyway...
i have an aquaintence who employs not one legal citizen of this country. i haven't said anything because i am afraid i will say the wrong thing. its none of my business. i guess i am just venting here. it would not bother me to see immigration laws enforced to the letter, i think there are more than enough mexicans here to assimilate for the positive effects that immigration has, which i agree with, pointed out by several in this discussion. i think any more is detrimental to our society and way of life.
certainly it is to my livlihood, even as an employer if you follow david gerstels example of making a fair 15% profit on each employee for the sake of a stable business, you benefit more from a highly trained well paid employee even on the short term, never mind what the consequences of cheap labor is over the long term. i cannot believe there aren't enough english speaking legal citizens of this country to accomplish this with. just my opinion
>i never accused anyone of anything, all i did was ask questions.Never accused him of anything? Just asked questions? Musta been another segundo who posted this earlier in the thread..."i am betting that your non english speaking employees are illegal, and that you are paying them less than you would have to pay a legal citizen of this country and that you are pocketing the difference.and you have the gaul to ask for more of the same here on this forum!"
If it's good enough for the IRS, it's good enough for me. Like it or not, the burden of proof is on our government and not on me. That's what all those tax dollars I pay are for. I'm a small fry. Do I run extensive background checks? Yeah right. I've got the time and money to do that, right? Get real. Do you?
Just a heads up, it only cost $6.85 for each backround check we make with CBI, about 5 mins. of my time to know the guy thats using my $25K skid loader , & $50K fork lift is who he said he is. Small price for me to pay!
Who is CBI?
Confidential Brittish Inspector. We never won the war of 1776, we are Parte' of this global mess.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Damm, I miss that stuff
I was afraid of that. <G>
"And I'll substantiate the rumor that the English sense of humor
Is dryer than the Texas sand"
Colorado Bureau of Investigation
Edited 4/30/2006 10:01 am by G80104
RE: Post #42 and #45Diesel, you are pretty good when someone gets you going. <G>"Even the London Bridge has fallen down and moved to Arizona --
Now I know why"
Yeah, like a preacher with mad cow disease and a bad case of the verbal runs. View Image
Dieselpig, I don't know if I said it before, but thanks. Take it from me, there is no winning with this guy. He is irrational and ignorant. I am sorry that I even entertained his foolishness.Mike
<<There is no Us and them, we all gotta eat.>>I am always grateful for those insights. I think we should appoint you the Poet Laureate of Breaktime.The best politics is right action. -Mohandas K. Gandhi (1869-1948)
<<It is not the simple fact to hire illegals, I don't want illegals. I want good workers. Period. The whole Bi-lingual thing, if I remember was preferred, not required. What I am really on the look out for is some one else a lot like me, who I can train and eventually give a crew to. So before you guys are so quick to judge somebody, give it some thought, and a little bit of respect.>>Well said, and thank you.If we are going to keep our country strong and we really believe in the founding principles, that is a good place to start.It seems to me that some of the criticism you have received is based upon racial and ethnic discrimination. Racism in any form is simply not tolerable in a free and democratic society. Getting adjusted to new cultures and new ways of doing things is just part of being an American. And if we do that skillfully, we will all be stronger for it.For a little bit of context, I am the only white male who speaks English as a first language in my company. I do insist that everyone is 100% legal, and we have to all follow the rules, including filling out an I-9 form with legitimate documentation.That has put me in the preposterous position of asking someone to prove that they are legally allowed to work on land that their people have lived on for about 5,000 years. <G> If that doesn't make you pause for reflection on bureacracy . . . I have learned a few new languages, am continually learning how to organize a company so that it works for women, immigrants, some downright puzzling social and cross-cultural challenges, and regional attitudes.The result is that I have an amazing team. I look forward to going to work every day, I learn at least as much from my crew each day as they learn from me, if we are not working it's because we are laughing too hard to work, and the productivity and quality of work these people consistently achieve is astonishing. We are quickly gaining a reputation as the company to call when nobody else wants the job and it needs to be done to a high standard of quality, on time, on budget.Why would I care if my day is in a few different languages and someone is usually gone to take care of their kids a few hours a day?"When you're down on your luck and you ain't got a buck, in London you're a goner . . ."
do the people that buy your homes know that you advertise for employees with little to moderate experience?
Everybody needs entry-level crew members. It's the quality of the management and supervision that is most important.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
ya i know they all need to start somewhere, again the thing here is this person is stressing bi-lingual.
if i want a job and don't speak spanish its to bad for me despite all the experience in the world i will have to put in blocks because i can't communicate.
and there is the "problem" again, why would someone put up with the added difficulty of a language barrier on a jobsite? what could possibly be the reason? could it be that his non english speaking legal to work in this country carpenters do such excellent work that he can't bear to lose them? or is it maybe that they are not legal and very cheap and he doesn't even have to send in the tax money because he knows the social security numbers are fake and the 1099's will not be filed etc etc etc. hmmm.
if i had to bet i would put my money on the money, the reason he keeps non english speakers is because they are cheap and make him more money. all of this goes to the illegal's being here to "do the jobs nobody wants". I want those jobs, i just don't want the money they get paid. if he had to pay them what he would pay a legal citizen i have no problem.
Maybe he is a spanish speaking person and sees no reason to hire non spanish speakin people since the crew members he already has he is happy with and just wants to expand.
ya maybe it is that kirk, then again maybe it is all the other things i have been pointing out. what do you think? thats what i was hoping to get was your opinion, not just a maybe.
My opinion is it could be either and I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt, since it won't affect me one way or the other. Those that choose to apply will have to make their own decision.
i guess a better way to say it is if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, sounds like a duck well hey i guess its a duck.
i said first thing right away when i posted in the tavern that i could be wrong, and if i am wrong i am sorry. but i have seen to many times work going to immigrants who can't speak english and i doubt they are legal. i know they don't get paid squat.
i got that feeling reading the posts about the guy looking for framers in my area. i know i can't take the job because i will starve. so i rant, sorry if i offend.
maybe i should just be realistic and hire a crew of my own spanish speakers starting at 8 per hr. maybe i could buy a few houses to rent to them as well. get them to recruit some fresh help from their hometown, the new guys will be even cheaper, i can lower my bids and still make money. hmmm.
I mean you are in business to make money aren't you? :-)
It sounds like you are wanting employees, not subs. If I am wrong to contact LoMax Construction LLC. or Progressive Const. Inc. These are two reputable crews in Wilmington that I know fairly well. If you are interested, shoot me an email through Taunton and I will be glad to give some more info about them ( names and contact numbers)