Replies

1. 
   Timuhler | Dec 10, 2003 05:17am | #1

   We pretty much stick frame every roof we do.  They are just too cut up to justify trusses (with all the overframing).  This summer we 3 easy roofs and decided to use trusses.  Wrong decsion.  Anyway.......

   One of our framers told us to string the tails, so we did.  That is the way he did it years ago.  Well that didn't work.  The trusses just weren't the same.  Almost none of the tails (as measured from the long point of the tail, up the underside of the tail to the intersection of the bottom cord and tail) were the same.

   Next house we strung the tops.  We set each gable and the strung a line and line to that.  We then recut the tail because they didn't match, but everything planed better.

   By the way, I'm not ripping on trusses at all.  They work great for a lot of people.  They just didn't save us any time and the cost was (and usually is) to high for us to use them.

   Post some pics if you can as you progress.  There is nothing more interesting to me than to watch a house go up and see the different ways guys get to the finished product.

   I hope the project goes well for you.

1. 
   Timuhler | Dec 10, 2003 05:22am | #2

   Here is a pic of a roof we framed last spring.  Trusses just wouldn't have worked and allowed us to keep most of the house vaulted.  Pitch was 10-12.

   
1. 
   moltenmetal | Dec 11, 2003 03:45pm | #15

   I'm interested to know what the three rafters in the centre right of the picture are landing on where they intersect the roofline to the right- it's not clear from the picture.

1. 
   Timuhler | Dec 11, 2003 05:51pm | #18

   Good question.  We nailed a 2x12 on top of the roof on the right and landed those gable rafters on that.  This pic doesn't show it, but there is a wall framed underneath those rafters on the right hand side. 

   After we skip sheeted the roof, I built a cricket valley so that  water would sit in that intersection.  Let me see if I can find a pic.

   Here is the best pic I could find.  I'm sure I have one of the framing, but I can't find it.  You can see the cricket valley. 

   
2. 
   GerryB | Dec 11, 2003 05:08am | #12

   Thanks for the feedback.  Our roof is coming together in spite of it all, as somehow it always seems to!  Wish I could post some pics for you, but my computer is from the stone age and I'm not very tech savvy either, alas.  My first visit to the Breaktime Forum has certainly been fascinating!

2. 
   davidmeiland | Dec 10, 2003 05:38am | #3

   In theory, you should be able to string the tails and also get the ridges in line, but in reality it probably won't work. I'd make sure the ridge is straight and centered over the building (if that's where it's supposed to be) by plumbing down to the deck with a laser. That way, at least both sides will plane, and if need be you can cut the tails.

   Did a job early this year with trusses. It was a complete disaster. The truss company built them wrong (heel height too high by 3"+) and fortunately we figured that out within 5 minutes of delivery. Take 'em back and remake the whole batch. Second batch was better but not perfect, and we ended up having to modify some of them and get others replaced. Maybe it's not as bad from other truss manufacturers, but our lumber yard recommended a loser. We could easily have stick framed the damn thing in a couple of days. Unfortunately, by the time we got the plans they were engineered and approved for trusses. Never again.

1. 
   xMikeSmith | Dec 10, 2003 07:29am | #4

   string & block the walls, brace.. string and block the HEELS

   Mike Smith   Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

   Edited 12/9/2003 11:31:52 PM ET by Mike Smith

1. 
   Timuhler | Dec 10, 2003 09:05am | #5

   Mike,

   Your framing always looks clean.  You must have a good reputation. 

   I notice your using the turnbuckles nailed or screwed to 2x4s.  I seem to recall you mentioning them before, but it could have been someone else.  Do you find that your walls stay closer to plumb and the walls stay nice and straight than using other methods of bracing? 

   Sometimes by the time we get rafters and sheathing and climb around, walls get knocked around and we have to replumb.  Do your braces hold better?

1. 
   xMikeSmith | Dec 10, 2003 02:34pm | #6

   tim .. i was taught the old bent 2x4 nailed to the deck & plate... what a time consumer.. and ,like you say.. someone always knocked them outof alignment

   these are turnbuckles from the concrete forming industry.. we got them at a concrete supply house..

    fast , accurate,infinitely adjustable

   nice article  last month.. keep up the good work

   Mike Smith   Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

1. 
   Timuhler | Dec 10, 2003 06:18pm | #10

   Mike,

   Thanks for the compliments. 

   I have a friend who supplies concrete forms and anything relating to concrete forms for bridges, hiways, hostpitals, pretty much anything you need for concrete.  I'll call him and order some.

   How many do you think are needed?  We usually frame aroun 2500 sq homes.  Sometimes a lot more, sometimes less.  I'm thinking 20?

2. 
   xMikeSmith | Dec 10, 2003 06:42pm | #11

   i get by with about 8... but we do mostly additions...

   figure 2 or 3 per  average wall

   here's two more pics of them in use

   Mike Smith   Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

   
2. 
   moltenmetal | Dec 11, 2003 04:13pm | #16

   Mike:

   Thanks for posting those very instructive pictures.  From the picture lt14trussline, it appears that you're doing something very similar to what I'm planning for my own addition.  I'm planning a two-storey addition beside an existing 1 1/2 storey house, and I'd like to keep the existing house dry until I've got the addition up- that seems to be what you've done on this place.

   You're a pro and have a good relationship with your truss manufacturer.  You can see just how perfectly that 2x4 lies along the old roof and ends up perfectly on your new roof section- testament to a job well done.   But... in my place I was worried that either through measurement errors, accumulating errors in the new house framing, irregularities in the old house's dimensions, or problems at the truss shop, if I did the new roof with trusses rather than a stick-built approach, something would get messed up and the new roof would end up out of plane to the old one with no easy way to adjust it.

   I'm also very interested in how you completed the roof framing between the existing structure and the new trussed roof.  I presume you stick-framed it in place, but I'm interested in the details and pics if you have any!  Did you leave 1/2 of the old roof buried under the new roof section, or did you tear it out from underneath once you had the new roof sheathed and shingled?  Any advice or shots you can provide on how that roof was completed would be very helpful to me!

   Thanks!

1. 
   BossHog | Dec 11, 2003 05:14pm | #17

   "I was worried that...the new roof with trusses rather than a stick-built approach, something would get messed up and the new roof would end up out of plane to the old one with no easy way to adjust it."

   You're right to be concerned about this. It's something I deal with all the time.

   Matching trusses up with existing framing is a pain. I think I can get a perfect match about 50% of the time. I probably get a useable match at least 40% of the time. And the last 10% really stink. A lot depends on the situation.

   If you can measure the existing structure accurately it makes a lot of difference. Bad measurements will result in bad trusses.

   For instance - I went out on a job once where they wanted to add onto the end of a hip roof. But the contractor didn't want to frame in the valley first so I could measure off of it. And he didn't want to open up the soffit so I could check the heel height on the existing walls. I refused, as there was no way to come up with accurate measurements to match things up.

   Another time a guy put one of those "smart levels" on a roof and told me what pitch it came up with. But he didn't take into account that the old rafters had a bow in them. I strung a triangle from the peak to the tails, took measurements, and figured the slope from that. The trusses in that case matched pretty well. (Couldn't match the bow)

   Maybe I'm being a bit long winded here. Just wanted to make the point that the trusses are a LOT more likely to fit if the truss guy has something definite to measure from.

   Scheduling can be a problem in situations like this. You can't open up an existing house, then order trusses and wait 2 or 3 weeks for delivery. So talking to the truss company before you open the thing up is important.

   Tell 'em what you're doing and when you plan to be ready for them to measure. Then they can schedule production of the trusses accordingly. I've done this many times, and can usually get the trusses delivered in 3 or 4 days after measuring.

   If the truss company isn't interested in cooperating, look for another one or stick frame it. Some truss companies will bend over backwards to help you, and others won't.I graduated in the top 80% of my class.

2. 
   xMikeSmith | Dec 11, 2003 08:06pm | #19

   accurate measuring is the key to whatever  success we have... especially in regards to pitch... so the trusses will plane into the exisiting..

    once we  have that then we usually wait until they are on site so we can build the support wall exactly to what is required...

   sometimes we will adjust the wall ht. by a 1/2"  or so to get just what we need..

    also with old houses... level is a concept more than a reality... so that will throw off the planes also..

    here's two pics of some infill framing... this is where we play "fool the eye " tricks  to get  the last tweaking..

   Mike Smith   Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

   
1. 
   moltenmetal | Dec 11, 2003 09:24pm | #20

   Mike:

   Thanks for the pics.  Again- did you leave the old roofing buried under the new roofing, or did you tear out from underneath?  Guess there would be no reason to tear the old roofing out from underneath in this case because the existing place is single storey.  That left a stury existing roof structure to land your new stick-framed rafters onto.

   Any pictures of the back side of the main house, not the entranceway, before you sheathed it?

   Thanks again!

2. 
   xMikeSmith | Dec 11, 2003 10:02pm | #21

   we left some and tore off some... this was a full foundation inder the new section

   and the old foundation was in the way...

   Mike Smith   Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

   
3. 
   moltenmetal | Dec 11, 2003 11:19pm | #22

   Mike:

   I'm lucky in that respect- no foundation in the way.  The house is brick veneer/frame structure, so all I have to do is remove the brick along the addition and build a new foundation/basement beside the existing house, and I can found my new addition supporting wall on the part of the old foundation wall that used to support the brick.  The old foundation wall is straight and well-founded (the brick's as straight as an arrow after 70 yrs), and it's cast concrete, so it'll take the load of the new wall no problem.  But the old basement is only 6'6" or so and I want a full basement in the new place.  If I don't want a good chunk of the basement eaten up by a big bench, I have to underpin the existing foundation- not fun, nor cheap.  But not nearly as hard as what you had to do, by the look of it!

   I've got the trouble of having to shore up the existing roof peak so I can tear out 1/2 of the existing rafter/ceiling support (collar tie?)/knee wall structure from below so I can get full ceiling height on the 2nd floor in the half of the house adjoining the addition.  I'm just brainstorming now, trying to figure out my best plan of attack before I put the effort into drawing up the plans- I want to draw up something which will be do-able and won't leave the house exposed to the weather for any longer than absolutely necessary.  (I apologize if I'm not using the correct terms for the framing members!). 

   I'll be getting my structural engineer friend to check whatever I put down on paper, but right now as I mentioned I'm looking for practical advice.  Yeah, I know I could tear the entire roof off the old house and raise it all to 2 storeys, but that's not in the cards for a variety of reasons- not the least of which is that I'd have to either re-brick or stucco the entire exterior to make it look like something other than tumour on the old house.  

   I could put up a header to support the ends of the horizontal members which support the ceiling, and install new ones to continue the ceiling over to the new supporting wall along the addition- then I could tear out the old knee wall, leaving the rafters in place for the timebeing.  Damn, I look forward to getting rid of those drafty old knee-wall closets!  

   I guess the surest way of getting a hinge-resistant joint at the old roof peak would be to tear off a row of roof sheathing boards at the peak and lap new rafters along the existing rafters- but that alone wouldn't do it, because the new spliced rafters wouldn't be deep enough to be strong enough to span the new, longer distance without additional members to stiffen them (i.e. I'd end up building a truss in-situ in the old roof space).  Another way to put it:  before I tear out the old rafters from underneath on the side adjoining the addition, I'd have to reinforce the joint at the old ridge where the remaining old rafters and the new rafters meet, so it doesn't hinge at the joint.  I could do that with members tying the joint back down at an angle to the top plate of the new bearing wall, or to the header which picks up the joint between the old and new ceiling support members, I guess.  If I did either (or both) of these such that I don't need a moment-resisting connection between the old and new rafters, could I forego lapping the rafters and just nail a 2x8 on top of the old sheathing and roofing felt at the ridge and land my new rafters on that?   It's a relatively short span (the old house is 19' wide, outside of brick to outside of brick).

   Thanks again for answering my newbie questions.  I appreciate it- this forum is amazing and I can't get over the generosity and skill of the people who contribute to it!

4. 
   xMikeSmith | Dec 12, 2003 12:22am | #23

   these are probably the ones you want to see...... took a while to find them...

    as to the tie -in.. when we did the infill -frame... we stripped off about two of the roof baords on the reverse pitch of the minor roof.. and used our 5/8 ply sheathing  spanning the two  as a tie-in

   the roof shingles on the old pretty much stayed in place.. and all the penetrations were temporarily flashed with Grace ice & water....

    i think we had one minor leak... andsome kilz & ceiling paint fixed that

   Mike Smith   Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

   Edited 12/11/2003 4:30:45 PM ET by Mike Smith

   
5. 
   moltenmetal | Dec 13, 2003 07:00am | #24

   Mike:  these pics are great, and I understand what you mean about taking off sheathing boards on the reverse pitch and lapping that with your new sheathing plywood-

   - but I'm still wondering what the new rafter structure looked like, and how you tied the old ridge to the new trusses.  If you left the old roof and shingles in place, I guess you could have just nailed a 2x6 on the ridge line and tied the new rafters into that, as shown in other pictures. 

   My case is a bit tougher, because I'm not leaving the existing roof structure in place when the job's done.  I have a lot of tearing out and re-constructing to do from underneath.

   Thanks again for the pictures- I appreciate the help!

6. 
   StanFoster | Dec 13, 2003 02:22pm | #25

   Mike:   Real interesting work you posted. Its nice to see such precise framing. 

2. 
   GerryB | Dec 11, 2003 05:27am | #13

   Is it really cheaper and faster using stick framing?  Our company builds 3 to 4 houses and /or several additions per year, virtually all framed using trusses for the roof.  I'm just a working stiff so don't know about cost differences, but have to assume trusses are more efficient or we would not be going that route.  Our local truss manufacturer pretty much has a lock on the market here in this part of eastern Ontario, but they turn out a quality product and we don't often encounter major problems.  Naturally, the building almost always varies slightly in dimension, squareness, level, etc from what is spec'd on the blueprints the truss design guy works from, so we must modify slightly to suit.  On jobs with a continuous roofline from one end of the building to the other, stringing tails or peaks usually works reasonably well.  But this roof is a maze of intersecting rooflines ( all the same pitch and on the same plate level, with equal overhangs all around), so it is tough to string anything very far.  It is proving a great challenge, though, and learning experiences are always welcome.  I am glad not to be a piecework framer, though, on jobs like this. 

1. 
   BossHog | Dec 11, 2003 03:34pm | #14

   "Is it really cheaper and faster using stick framing?"

   Boy, that's loaded question. I'm sure you could find lots of opinions that run either way. Might be worth a separate thread, if someone is interested in starting one.

   "...the building almost always varies slightly in dimension, squareness, level, etc from what is spec'd on the blueprints..."

   Around here we typically measure the foundation after the forms are stripped, then adjust things to fit. Foundations are rarely 100% correct.The great leader is not necessarily the one who does the greatest things; he is the one who gets the people to do the greatest things. [Ronald Reagan]

3. 
   Framer | Dec 10, 2003 02:59pm | #7

   Gerry,

   but this job has several different rooflines, and it isn't possible to line up a whole row of trusses only with the tails. 

   When you say different roof lines are you saying that there different roof lines with DIFFERENT pitches sitting on the same plate height?

   Or are you saying different roof lines with the SAME pitches sitting on the same plate?

   Does the Boss want EQUAL overhangs all the way around?

   Are all the Trusses sitting on the same plate height?

   If you have Different pitches and you want  Equal overhangs with stick framing you have to adjust the plate heights on the steep pitched sides and raise them or if the pitches are close to each other you can ajust the H.A.P. cut or some say HEEL cut in order for you to have Equal overhangs.

   If it's specked out on the plans for Different pitches and equal overhangs then the Truss company has to make the adjustments on the H.A.P/HEEL cuts in order for them to work.

   If you have the same pitches with different roof lines all sitting on the same plate height then all your overhangs should be Equal, there should be no problem.

   Joe Carola

4. 
   BossHog | Dec 10, 2003 03:11pm | #8

   Why the heck are ya calling 'em "Rafter" tails??? They ain't rafters!

   But anyway - I wouldn't string the overhangs. If the walls have been plumbed and stringlined I'd use them to line up the ends of the trusses.

   Ovrhangs may vary some on a complex roof. In ideal circumstances, every truss that planes out with another one will be built in the same jig. But in reality that doesn't always happen. Sometimes orders are split up and sent to different parts of the plant depending on who needs work, etc. (lots of reasons)

   When they set up the truss in the jig, overhangs are generally the last thing checked. If the rest of the truss fits they'll let the overhang slide a bit. So the overhangs may be a bit long on one setup and short on another. If you set by stringing the overhangs, that might mean the peaks wouldn't line up.

   Self defense is a part of the law of nature; nor can it be denied the community, even against the king himself. [William Barclay]

5. 
   jsvenson | Dec 10, 2003 03:15pm | #9

   I snap a line on the top plate one inch in from the outside edge. I then make a mark on the truss bottom chord one inch in from the point where the top chord meets the bottom. I then line up my mark with the snapped line.

   I hate dealing with a string. The snapped line never sags or gets bumped out. A couple of taps with a hammer is usually enough to get the mark over the line.

   Of course no matter what method you use, you must always be double checking to make sure everthing is planing out.

   John Svenson, Builder, Remodeler, NE Ohio (Formerly posted as JRS)