My friend is almost ready to move into his new home and had asked me to go over and tell him what he would need to frame two bedrooms in his unfinished basement. One of the first things I noticed is that there is no bridging at all in between the I-joists to tie in the interior walls on the floor above. The walls are nailed into the plywood in the floor and thats it. I know that for regular wood framing (i’ve never done I-joists) that bridging is used. I don’t see why you wouldnt bridge the span for I-joists either. The bathroom in the basement of buddies house is framed the same way. The tops of the walls that are parallel to the joists above are not tied into anything. A good push will bow out the center of the wall. That has to be tied in as well correct?
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Typically, non bearing walls running parallel to the joists are shot down to the plywood on the bottom, and either into furring on top, (that's how we do it here in the crazy Northeast..:)...) or into blocking every 2' or so to hold the top straight....
"Bridging" is used to stiffen floor assemblies, transfering some of the load from one joist to the joists to either side of it...It really doesn't play a part in providing nailing for the bottom of the walls above....
I would say that in the case of either of your bud's jobs, yes, blocking every 16" or 2' on top between the joists should be installed to lock the wall straight, when the walls run parallel to the joists...
Bing
thats what i was thinking but was unsure...thanks for the clarification!!
I always put double joists under all walls running parallel to the joists so it is sitting on something more than 3/4 plywood. Even non load bearing walls have their own load.
Makes it frustrating for the plumbers, doesn't it?
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I have never had a plumber complain, I mean after all what do they do on load bearing walls? I tend to go for structural integrity first and convenience second. Probably overkill but it's the way I've always done it.
OK, so you double a joist under the wall, then the plumber has to cut the heart out of it to run a drain line down thru - what do you have? What did you gain by wasting that lumber?"after all what do they do on load bearing"When I frame with solid lumber, I ladder the supporting joist so the plumber and electrician can drill and run their stuff without destroying mine.
Can't recall ever framing a load bearing wall over I-joists. Usually use them in more unique load and engineering situations so I can't be specific on this thread for that situ
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Ok so the architects I work for and building inspectors and I have been doing it wrong, when the plumbers around here have to plumb in this situation they just use and elbow and cut very little out of the double and like I said before this is the first time in 17 years I have had anyone raise an eyebrow. The plumber I use teaches plumbing at a vocational school and was head plumbing inspector for the city so I am sure if what I have been doing was questionable he would have let me know. I would also like to say I don't want to come across as argumentative because I have great respect for you after reading numerous posts of yours but I do feel I should defend my position.
The past couple dozen jobs have included very specific framing plans that have specified doubles under all walls, huge headers in non bearing walls, a litany of specific special order Simpson connectors, and many other nonsencical directives. If I don't follow the plans, neither the AHJ or the achitect will approve, so I put in all the stuff you do.
That said, I would agree with Piffin, a bit of cross blocking ,craftmanship and common sense will allow the other trades to do their job without destroying yours, and be at least as, if not more sound.
O K I follow your reason but I disagree, I guess I will have to give up on trying to explain how little of the joist a skilled plumber removes and how little of an issue this really is. Zachariah-out.
Paul, Am I reading that correctly, he puts lumber under a nonloadbearing wall to hold what up???????????
Owl killers!
Time wasters!
...
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Come on, tell us what you really think!>G<
There you go, stirring the pot again;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Shall we start a discussion of screwing framing also!>G<
I have seen the double joist on many plans, I don't usually do it though, as it is unnecessary, imo.
I have had plumbers complain when a joist falls under a wall by coincidence, never mind a double on purpose...;)
Fact is, with material like 3/4 Advantech, there isn't any sag in the middle of a bay with just a non bearing wall above it. I think that maybe the practice of archy's putting in the double is a holdover from days of full 3/4 inch plaster, where code said that subfloor could be as light as 1/2" cdx....In that case I could see there being cause for concern. Not so w/ new materials.....
Bing
I gave up on this as I said before, I'm not here to argue I have better things to do.
I always run a joist on each side of the parallel wall above for mechanical reasons, not directly underneath. I’ll layout the parallel walls above on the first floor top plates before framing and lifting. Put an X on each side making the space for a 2x4 wall 4". This way there's no notching and a clear path for plumbers. Joe Carola
126524.9 in reply to 126524.7
Ok so the architects I work for and building inspectors and I have been doing it wrong, when the plumbers around here have to plumb in this situation they just use and elbow and cut very little out of the double and like I said before this is the first time in 17 years I have had anyone raise an eyebrow. The plumber I use teaches plumbing at a vocational school and was head plumbing inspector for the city so I am sure if what I have been doing was questionable he would have let me know. I would also like to say I don't want to come across as argumentative because I have great respect for you after reading numerous posts of yours but I do feel I should defend my position.
Zach,Why are you yelling at me?All I said to you was the way I do it. Relax,I wasn't picking on you. Alot of the Architects spec the same thing as yours do. I don't do it that way and never have. I just split the joists with a 4" space between them giving a clear path. That's all. Besides, you are not doing it wrong if you're following the plans. The Architects don't realize that they are specking something that can cause a problem with a plumber. Spacing the joist apart 4" is perfectly fine.Joe Carola
I think the architect I use is extremely smart and thinks of almost everything including the fact that the plumbers around here know how to do their job better than others I guess or they just don't whine as much, again I can't believe this is such an issue.
It's not an issue if you don't have plumbers notching the joists and if they can put an elbow on without any problems, you are good to go.Joe Carola
It is good framing practice to leave the space accessible under most partitions. Of course, we also understand that sometimes the load bearing beams/joists/girders have to be positioned exactly underneath but on 95% of interior partitions, that isn't necessary. If I was the builder and saw framers installing the joist directly under the beams, I'd require them to move them. I wouldn't allow them to install any additional joist except for extraordinary conditions.
No need to get ugly about it and go shouting and stomp off in the corner.What you do is not wrong, nobody is criticizing you for doing it.This is simply a conversation of guys saying how they do it and why one way can be better than another. If I could not learn a better way from theirs, I would not be wasting any time here. I learn more every time I check in.
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Now that you have become agitated and argumentative I'm going to tell you what I really think....nah...it don't matter. Put in triples if you really want them solid LOL. Question: Lets say there is a small partition...maybe 4' long that would land in between the joists. Do you put a double joist under this partition too? Based on my experience, we rarely needed any additional joist under most partitions...even if they ran the full length of the joists. Of course, if they were carrying any more weight other than drywall, some consideration would have to be made to carry the load. But, in normal interior non load bearing conditions, no additional joist are needed. Of course, in your locality, you might be considered a hack for that so you probably shouldn't adopt any other method other than to carry on, as usual. It would be nice though, if all the engineers, inspectors, framers, builders, etc, too a good hard look at how much lumber they needlessly install on many of these houses. There is a substantial amount of lumber being wasted.
with ref to the OP of this thread, it would be a disaster to add double I-joist under a wall - bearing or not - and then let the plumber notch the top chord out.;)
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I agree. Any framer that is intentionally putting lumber in the way, knowing that it will have to be notched, needs to have an intervention. That just isn't good framing technique.
That is what I mean when I say laddering the joist framing under the wall
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I've seen what you mean. Instead of doing what I do, you will cut 14-1/2" blocks in between two joists and the wall above will sit on top of that. That's still leaves a nice opening for plumbing.IRC 2006 R502.4. Says to block every 4'. It also shows a picture of it on page 98 R502.2.
Joe Carola
That works too, but not quite what I meant.If it is a load bearing wall, I frame the two joists spaced with 3-1/2" blocks 4'oc under it.When it is non bearing wall I might just put the 14-1/2" blocking in 4'oc with no extra joists added.from a designer's POV, I think the dbled joists get in every plan as a cya thing with no thinking whether it is needed or not.
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In my early framing days, we had to ladder under every partition because most of the time, the rough flooring was 1/2 cdx sheathing. It wasn't strong enough to carry any partition. After we abandoned the two floor system and started using T and G 3/4 flooring, we gradually eliminated the laddering for most partitions. Occassionally we'd put them in for certain situations.
I don't think the ladder frame works well with I Joist though, hard to nail those blocks in well. That's one advantage of 1 1/8 subfloor, no need to worry about this issue.John
I wouldn't think of it with I-JOISTS
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You are right...thats one more strike against engineered floor systems. Simple things like blocking become slow, tedious projects.
Everybody must be stuck inside as fast as these replies are coming.
I was watching the football game...half and half...half reading here and half watching the game.
>>I have had plumbers complain when a joist falls under a wall by coincidence<<Don't you find out where the second floor walls go first so that this doesn't happen?Joe Carola
I generally try to determine with my plumber where we'll run lines ahead of time, but with the exception of toilet lines, I don't change the location of joists to accomodate that.
Always seems that if I change the layout, it guarantees that a seam in the ply will land on it...
I usually run the numbers, and 99% of the time, I can keep everything out of the way by switching my layout from left to right or vice versa, and that will keep joists out from under a wall if need be...
As far as checking the second floor walls, what does that have to do w/ a vanity drain in a first floor bathroom?
I find that most of the houses I see these days rarely have any thought to stack walls lining up, etc, anyway. I remember when I started framing, every house had 2x6 walls stacked on top of each other for waste and vents....Now, every house is an adventure....
Bing
>>I generally try to determine with my plumber where we'll run lines ahead of time, but with the exception of toilet lines, I don't change the location of joists to accomodate that.<<I will layout toilet drains and tub drains first. I will then hook my tape from left to right for example and see if a 16" center hits the drains, if so I will start from the other side and if that works I will go with that side. If both sides don't work obviously the 16 center joist has to get moved. Laying out for the plumber is the first priority and not laying out for the plumber isn't an option.>>Always seems that if I change the layout, it guarantees that a seam in the ply will land on it...<< Sometimes I have to and sometimes I don't.>>I usually run the numbers, and 99% of the time, I can keep everything out of the way by switching my layout from left to right or vice versa, and that will keep joists out from under a wall if need be...<<From the mudsill I layout all plumbing and walls above. On the top of the first floor wall plates before framing I layourt all plumbing and walls above. Therefore I know not to put any joists under a parallel wall above or any joists under any drains above.>>As far as checking the second floor walls, what does that have to do w/ a vanity drain in a first floor bathroom?<<I asked if you check for second floor walls above so that you don't put any joists underneath them.Joe Carola
I don't, because with a 2" drain, I can always shift a wall a maximum of 1" one way or the other so that it's not centered over a joist; that leaves 2" to get by the joist below. The 1" is max; usually less, or not at all.
Bing
Step one is egress windows. I dont know it they're there or not, but if people will be sleeping down there, they need to be able to get out in case of fire.
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
Whatever works. When I did it, I cut a 2x to fit between the webs and nailed it through the web (8d nails) and then put another 2x cut to fit between the rib/chord. Can't nail that one through the chord/rib ... nail it to the other 2x. Going perpendicular to the joists you use a 8d nail down through the rib/chord into the wall top plate.
The manuf of the joist has very specific criteria about just about every detail and what they allow in terms of framing, blocking, nailing, holes, etc. They often publish a giant fold out reference sheet that will tell you just about everything and every situation you might run into and how they want you to handle it.
Like the other poster said ... don't forget your egress windows ... often the single biggest issue of remodeling new bedrooms in a basement. A 'simple' $2000 remodel of some framing, sheetrock, and outlets/lights might have another $3k+ added to it.
Sorry to be so stand-offish I have no problems with the other ways to build put forth here. I guess I need a cig.
yeah I remembered the egress thing....he wanted to frame in a room where there was no window at all so I had suggested instead that instead of a room just leave it open off the hallway which is inline with the stairs to the front door so there is no room in the basement that doens't have a direct and easy access outside.
I looked at the place again and it's REALLY sloppy. I took my measuring tape out and measured all over the place. Walls aren't square to each other, slightly out of plumb (his doors are gonna suck later) but the biggest thing was there is no slope to the main drain line for his plumbing (like i said, the basement is unfinished) at all. Not too sure how thats gonna work if at all.
I'm no contractor by any stretch nor am I genious but i have enough sense to know that $hit flows downhill!!
It may be different in other areas, but typically the company providing the I beams do the engineering on the floor system. The plan usually states something about following the plan provided by the Ibeam provider. There is usually way less blocking and such on the I beam plan, part of the labor and material savings that make it "faster and better'' than dimensional lumber I suppose. It's funny as the plan usually states placing doublers under parralel walls yet it also says to follow the I beam engineering which rarely has you do it, and when it does it usually has a parallam or some such there. I'll some times ladder block, but typically I set a joist right next to a wall above as I believe that transfers the weight to it anyway (imaginary line-wall on one side, joist on other)
Hey guys, sorry for my childish behavior the other day, I had no business interacting with other humans that day, I agree, it is better to make it easier for all trades on the job and just because I have done something for years does not make it the best way. I apologize again to all and will be thinking about this on the next floor system I frame.
You be the MAN now!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Both approaches pre-suppose a rational plumber. A friend of mine noticed some staining on his ceiling below his upstairs shower. We cut a small hole to see what the cause was and found a 2" pipe coming through a hole in the floor joist, running along about a foot, and the returning through a hole into the original joist space. The cause of the leak was a cracked elbow, but we were both at a loss as to what obstruction could have made the plumbing detour necessary. Finally our curiosity got the better of us, and rationalizing that we were patching the ceiling anyway, we cut the drywall further back revealing the shower drain and trap pointing to the hole in the joist, doing its detour and returning after negotiating a non-existent obstruction. Rather than cut it out, we left it in a gesture of reverence to the kind of mind that created it.
Remember back in the 60s they gave spiders LSD, and then took pictures of the webs they spun?I wonder if...AitchKay
That would be interesting to see.