I need to hire 2-3 framing carpenters. Would like them to also be able to do finish carpentry – a boy can dream.
Must have experience with heavy lumber framing – 3x’s, PSL’s (3 1/2″, 5 1/4″ x 12″). Most are 24′ long – metal framing stud walls and dropped ceilings with some barrel vaulting. It would be great if they understood and are experienced with hanging GWB. Finish carpentry is a plus, but I could instead have another hiring phase for that crew.
I intend to fire just about my entire current crew. I figure fire 2 guys and hire one @ 85% of their combined wage. I’ll save /hr, job gets done correctly – the first time. Mega savings in time and money. Win, win.
So, I need an interview test. Here’s what I have.
A room with various pieces of building materials, tape measures, utility knife, hammers, drills, saws, screws, nails, pencils (unsharpened) and sharpie marker. The Interview: 1. Measure width of room (23′-4 1/2″). 2. Cut two 2x4s, 27 5/16 long and nail them together offset 3 1/2″.
Test Points – What tools do they use? Do they use the shiny, new 16oz hammer or the 22oz, worn hammer? (Neither hammers are titanium.) How do they measure/ mark the dimension (V or single line)? Do they sharpen the pencil? Do they choke-up on the hammer? Do they nail wood together or screw? (Yeah, I know). How many hits with the hammer? How accurate are the cuts? Two pieces the exact same length?
Bonus Points: Do they pick up a scrap piece of wood or cut both pieces from a 12′ stick? I was thinking of having a 54″ or 56″ 2x right next to the saw to see if they measure it for 2 lengths first. Do they sharpen the pencil? Do they use the speed square to mark a full length straight line and then use the chop saw? (ARG!) Do they first pick up the 16′ or 25′ tape measure?
Concerns: Injury during interview – therefore cutting 2×4’s rather than 2×12’s. Guys not in work clothes – wrong shoes. Safety glasses and hardhats will be provided.
Any other ideas? Comments?
Frankie
Flay your Suffolk bought-this-morning sole with organic hand-cracked pepper and blasted salt. Thrill each side for four minutes at torchmark haut. Interrogate a lemon. Embarrass any tough roots from the samphire. Then bamboozle till it’s al dente with that certain je ne sais quoi.
Arabella Weir as Minty Marchmont – Posh Nosh
Replies
This is always an interesting discussion and I welcome all the newcomer's comments and suggestions.
For me, nothing beats a thorough interview followed by an evaluation period. I never ran any of those tests you are describing but I thought of them too.
Once the guy started, I did notice all the things that told me about the guys skills and state of his chosen craft. I rarely was impressed but I often had to settle.
One sure thing: real carpenters won't take your test, so, if someone refuses, then it's probably safe to hire them.
Interesting point about real carpenters.Problem with hiring and evaluating is that every time a guy is let go/ fired, the company gets taxed for unemployment at a higher rate. Over time and after a few "evaluations" this can be very costly for a small company.Frankie
Flay your Suffolk bought-this-morning sole with organic hand-cracked pepper and blasted salt.
Thrill each side for four minutes at torchmark haut. Interrogate a lemon.
Embarrass any tough roots from the samphire. Then bamboozle till it's al dente with that certain je ne sais quoi.
Arabella Weir as Minty Marchmont - Posh Nosh
Problem with hiring and evaluating is that every time a guy is let go/ fired, the company gets taxed for unemployment at a higher rate. Over time and after a few "evaluations" this can be very costly for a small company.
Treat him as casual labor* during the short evaluation, pay cash daily. IRS says that you can do that for up to $600 annually per person, last time I checked. You can still deduct those wages on your company income tax.
Have him fill out the paperwork, W4 and such, so that you have a record for your workman's comp and others if he gets hurt, then put it all in the casual labor (no further action required) file if he doesn't cut it on your job.
*casual labor doesn't qualify for unemployment benefits and no deductions need to be taken from wages.
Edited 8/4/2009 1:33 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
I'd take the test, but only after rolling my eyes and asking, "You're kidding, right?"I mean all a guy has to do is cut a 2x4 and nail it together!How bout determining if a room is square and the walls plumb and which way off and by how much, then layout and cut a stringer for a three riser porch step, and lay out a wall on plates - no nailing reqd for those two.Another test, does he know how to hook up and use compressor and gun - and can he load the gun.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin,
The problem with Frankie's test is that he said this in his first post, "I figure fire 2 guys and hire one @ 85% of their combined wage. I'll save /hr, job gets done correctly - the first time. Mega savings in time and money. Win, win. and wants to give an experienced guy this beginners/reject test. This test is a joke and insult for an experienced guy.
Joe Carola
Yeak, somebody at that low level is going to cost him no matter what he does for a test.I was responding more to the general idea of a carpenter's test than to his situation, one reason I was disussing it with Jim instead of poor frankie
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Hey Joe,The test is kind of a joke, I'll agree. But i haven't framed full time in quite a while and I'm not very fast, but i might take that test.I know I could pass it. But where is the work? And what does that 85% translate to in $$?Important questions.Plus, I'm not that great at heights and roofs anymore.Glenn
then layout and cut a stringer for a three riser porch step, and lay out a wall on plates - no nailing reqd for those two.
I was briefly a carpenter, about 35 years ago. I remember my first job was going to work for a guy who had a contract to frame kit houses, where the homeowner would finish them. We got there and put the deck on and them he told the two of us (both highly inexperienced and just hired) to frame the stairs leading to the front door.
The boss didn't know how!!
When we successfully accomplished the task, he acted as though we had perfected cold fusion.
Every simple task we accomplished brought astonishment at our brilliance and more praise for the two of us.
"Wow, you can lay out a wall!!"
"Holy cow, guys, you figured out how many stair treads we need to get to the second floor!!"
"The wall isn't straight, now what?"
"You guys straightened it!"
and so on. I don't think he was too successful, although he was good for our egos.
most can't pass yur tests...
they leave the gaurds on their saws...
and also don't pin them back...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
you can't be no stinking framer with a guard in the way! thats the first thing i was taught . i hate gaurds.
oh-tay...
I quit....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
Bring em in for a day.
Put them on the books, and pay them for a day.
If you like them, keep them for a week.
After a week, tell them you will keep them for a 30 day trial period or lay them off.
Get them to state what their skills are in writing. If they lie on their application, you have a leg up on them come time to fight if need be. There is no test that will find you what you want.
You should be looking for someone who is bright, motivated, and wants to learn. You could teach them and then not have to fire them. I can find you a guy who is a great framer, but too lazy to make it in to work 3 days a week. Would pass the test with flyinig colors though.
Good point Jeffin. I almost forgot about how many days off them carpenters take.
I intend to fire just about my entire current crew. I figure fire 2 guys and hire one @ 85% of their combined wage. I'll save /hr, job gets done correctly - the first time. Mega savings in time and money. Win, win.
That's obviuosly an experienced guy.
The Interview: 1. Measure width of room (23'-4 1/2"). 2. Cut two 2x4s, 27 5/16 long and nail them together offset 3 1/2".
Test Points - What tools do they use? Do they use the shiny, new 16oz hammer or the 22oz, worn hammer? (Neither hammers are titanium.) How do they measure/ mark the dimension (V or single line)? Do they sharpen the pencil? Do they choke-up on the hammer? Do they nail wood together or screw? (Yeah, I know). How many hits with the hammer? How accurate are the cuts? Two pieces the exact same length?
That's a test for dummies. Is this a joke?
No joke. The current guys wouldn't pass this test and they have been "carpenters" for years. Welcome to my world.One guy was framing 24'-6" spans for 3 weeks using a 16' tape measure.Another guy was cutting joists 1/4" - 1/2" short, forget square, and said the joist hangers would more than make up for it.F
Flay your Suffolk bought-this-morning sole with organic hand-cracked pepper and blasted salt.
Thrill each side for four minutes at torchmark haut. Interrogate a lemon.
Embarrass any tough roots from the samphire. Then bamboozle till it's al dente with that certain je ne sais quoi.
Arabella Weir as Minty Marchmont - Posh Nosh
I won't take your test, as that insults me.
The cost of hiring an employee that you have to fire is a cost of doing business. If they haven't worked for you for long, your unemployment rate will not be affected much.
That is a terrible reason not to hire and fire until you find the right enployee!
No joke. The current guys wouldn't pass this test and they have been "carpenters" for years. Welcome to my world.
Then they aren't carpenters, they're rejects.
One guy was framing 24'-6" spans for 3 weeks using a 16' tape measure.
After the first day, you should've told him to get at least a 25' tape. I've never used anything smaller than a 30' tape framing. I use 35'.
Another guy was cutting joists 1/4" - 1/2" short, forget square, and said the joist hangers would more than make up for it.
Another reject. Unfortunately you have rejects. God help you if you asked one to cut a rafter. He would probably cut a birdsmouth on two rafters (which I doubt he can do)and draw a plumbcut with the pitch at the top of the rafters(which I doubt he can do) and then set them on the plate and lift them up and put a 2' level and check for plumb.
Second thought, I doubt he can do that also. Feel sorry for you. What makes you think that you can get one man that's 85% as good as two with what you're telling us?
Joe Carola
Edited 8/4/2009 2:35 pm ET by Framer
I would consider asking them to cut multiples of the same length--like the 7" cripples that go over doors in non-load bearing walls--and see if they use scraps and if they set some sort of stop to make the cuts. Measuring repetetive cuts really wastes time. Ask them to lay out typical stud or joist spacing (ideally, stud spacing, and provide the plates and see if they mark both plates at the same time) to see if they can do it (and how they do it). I've worked with guys who did not understand the concept of "on center." It wastes time too when you have to stop everything because the joists weren't laid out properly and the underlayment seams aren't landing on them!
I did put together a similar test once. Stuff like, if the roof pitch is 5:12, what is the pitch of the hip rafter. Just to see if they really had any residential framing experience. I'll see if I can dig it up.
I did have a boss ask me what the framing sq is set on for hip roofs rather then commons{5;17 vs 5;12} but i told him if the house is not sq im gonna hang my hip tails long and pull a string line anyways;]. I got the job
17 is the winning number! WOOHOO! you got the job!
I always figure it's no how much you know, it's how well you work with people and pick up info.
This stuff isn't rocket science. I just don't like working with most people in the trades.
I helped a neighbor lay a flagstone path in their front yard Sunday. The guys he had over ( 6? ) worked so well together and so hard it blew me away.
None of them had much if any experience but they just WORKED at it until it was done RIGHT! Unbelievable!"There are three kinds of men: The one that learns by reading, the few who learn by observation and the rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."Will Rogers
I used a test for my roofing crew.
1 Will your girlfriend give you a ride????.
2,What time is coffee break.
3 Will you ask to go to the gas station bathroom to take a "dump" 10 minutes after starting.
4Will you remember to bring lunch or just stare at your co workers lunch with puppy dog eyes.
5 Will you ask for an advance the first morn???.
6 Did you forget your tools or were they stolen from you.
7Will you say you put down 40 sq a day but that was with the right tools not the crappy ones the boss has.
8 Will you pick a fight with a coworker the first day over who was the best heavy metal band ever.
9 Will you cuss in front of the homeowner just cause.
10Will you get a call after lunch saying granny is dead.
If all are answered correct then i know i have a cheap worker and savings and bucks are in my pocket!!!;]
You forgot the guy who, when hired for roofing, asks if we really expect him to work waay up high on that roof.
had a guy ask me that once. he didn't stay.
Wuz the Mod test hard????;]
look who passed it.
What do you think? <G>
Edited 8/5/2009 12:00 am ET by Shep
I ain't gonna accuse anyone of cheatin' or anything, but for number 4, I put "I don't know" and Gunner, Luka AND Shep put "I don't know either"
Sheesh
Greg
I hired a guy once who was a pretty decent carpenter.Along about the third day, we went to sheathe and dry in a roof way back about 60 miles into the mountains. About 10AM, I call down the measurements to cut a piece for a hip on a dormer 2-1/2 stories up.he cuts it and stands there looking up at me while I nail off a previous piece.I ask why he hasn't brought it up the ladder yet."I don't work that high up, so you are gonna haveta come and get it""Damn but it's gonna be a Long walk back to town for you"He actually starting packing his gear in a huff, but then thought better of it, apologized, and we worked together fine for almost two years. I was best man at his wedding even.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"Damn but it's gonna be a Long walk back to town for you"
Had one start walking 50 miles from the shop got in about 10 before he was able to hitch a ride to the next town then had his wife come get him :)
told me a couple years later after about 3 miles he was wondering what he had done but was to stuborn to come back.so the next time he worked for me he always said he wouldn't walk no more that he would wait till we got to the shop to smart off thats what happened and he no longer works with us.
some people never learn!
I'd take you silly test, right after you make a perfect cube out of any chosen material. Any size. Using any tools.
Only rules are it must be absolutley cube, square, eqisided in all dimensions down to say 128th of an inch.
Only then.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"
Jed Clampitt
View Image
Silly test? I don't think so, but I can see why others, especially those who participate in this forum, would.A couple of things have occurred to me though:1. I have a limited amount of time to offer the test, so framing or laying out a wall isn't going to happen. Many would also think that the interview was a way of getting work done for free.2. Sure I could hire someone for a day or half a day, but that's the other half of the hiring process. Everyone hired gets evaluated.3. I am looking for an initial screening process. Thought this was a start - at least for discussion.4. For those who wouldn't take the test - my guess is you are not looking for work and you get most of your work from referrals. You aren't, and haven't been for a long time, part of my labor pool.5. I live in a city where 3x/ wood framing is NOT the norm. I do not think I would have this problem in the PNW or wherever wood frame construction is the norm. Most of the company's work is budget remodeling. This project isn't.6. We are deep into the project and any change needs to hit the ground running. I wanted to change the crew months ago but was told to sit tight and wait to learn the depth of the company first. I learned and am not impressed.7. Available work is limited and labor pool is big. This is a good opportunity to upgrade the crews. I want to do it efficiently.8. The test is not whether someone can cut 2 pieces of wood the same. It's about the process, how they move and their comfort level - if they work on muscle memory.Lastly - I bet most of you could sniff out a framer in about 30 secs. If I asked you how, most would answer "I just can/ know." If asked to explain how to... I bet, with a few exceptions (bosses) most would prefer to show me and not interrupt them.I am looking for a way to create the 30 secs and another 3 min to document why. Frankie
Flay your Suffolk bought-this-morning sole with organic hand-cracked pepper and blasted salt.
Thrill each side for four minutes at torchmark haut. Interrogate a lemon.
Embarrass any tough roots from the samphire. Then bamboozle till it's al dente with that certain je ne sais quoi.
Arabella Weir as Minty Marchmont - Posh Nosh
Actually, if you have a vast labor pool available, you should be able to attract decent help with your ad.
Post a craigslist ad and mention a few traits that you are NOT interested in. Let the framers sort themselves with this approach.
I've interviewed at least one thousand framers; some onsite, most over the phone. I spent a LOT of my "free" time doing so. There's no secret. The key is to engage in a normal conversation and carefully go over their experience. I keep it friendly and low key and I TAKE NOTES as I speak. Often, I would wear headphone and type into a word doc. I'd keep a template handy on the desktop and as I answered the phone, I'd pull it up and start typing.
The first thing is naturally the bio. Name, addy, phone etc. If they could get past that "test", I'd then ask about their experience. I would be keen on knowing how long they worked for each employer. I'd write that down as they talked and note the name of the company and the foreman.
During this initial phase of the interview, I'd let them gloss easily over everything. I'd simply try to get a quick glimpse of their history and let them briefly say who they were with. Often, I'd only get half the company name and the first name of the foreman and a very brief reason why they moved on.
The "trick" to this style interview was that I was setting them up for their in depth explanations. Sometimes, they'd be flying past all the info and be very glad that they didn't have to explain things in depth. WRONG! After I got the basics down, I'd go back and start grilling in detail. I'd ask about wages, experience, job title/description, accomplishments, reason for leaving etc. I'd force them to adequately explain all the time lines. It wasn't unusual for "three years experience with Joe Framing Crew" to end up being three summers as a lumber humper.
Remember, keep everything low key. Keep it conversational. Be empathetic. You need to understand that they are anxious and worried about finding work too. Sometimes, they will stretch the truth in hopes of landing the job. I don't blame them. When I'd smoke them out, I'd give them an out and let them save face BUT, I'd adjust their expectations regarding pay and let them know that I didn't mind paying for experience but that it had to be real. If they were apprenticing, then I was paying apprentice rates.
During this long convoluted interview, I'd be more keen on how we interacted rather than their actual experience. I knew that if I was talking to a motivated worker, I could bring him up to snuff as a framer in a very short timeframe.
One of the things that I tried to avoid was to hire remodelers for my framing operation. I had nothing against remodelors but their tools, methods and speed simply wasn't a good fit for our specialized operation. I occasionally would try out remodelors but it rarely worked.
Hope this helps.
Ps to Imerc: I never asked, nor insisted that anyone shim their guards. In fact, I didn't allow it. If they removed them permantly, I was okay with that though. I find it extremely dangerous for guys to work SOMETIMES with guards and other times without. Thats how accidents happen. I don't remember any of the carpenters I worked with that cut themselves because they didn't use guards. I had a few cut themselves with guards but those were the type of guys that would walk off the edge of the second story deck...and still not notice that they were doing something wrong. I did have a guy run his saw through his knee. I think he was using his leg as a sawhorse but he wouldn't tell me. We had six sets of sawhorses on that job plus his leg LOL.
any of these guys got the ability to learn? Might be easier to educate than replace.
You posted this mess. So yer open fer it .
Yer wastin a lot of time in frusrtation.
Yer on the wrong track unless you are gonna be an instructor thats there every minute. If yer gonna do that then you might need cheap help but it takes 5 for an instructor watching . He cant work. But it still dont work. Just gets you by cause you cant hire good help.
Lemme save ya some money. Hire the guys that can do it and pay them. Move on. Make yer money off the job itself and let them have the labor and sleep at night .
"You posted this mess... "OUCH!No longer want to teach. Just want to hire and almost not watch. Need a screening process. More $$ doesn't equate to better quality, unfortunately. Money isn't the issue, regardless. Just a selling point to my boss.Lemme send you some of the anti-angry pills I'm taking. They work wonders and go really well with beer. They won't make you happy but you won't be able to make a fist. Don't ask me how I know that.Frankie
Flay your Suffolk bought-this-morning sole with organic hand-cracked pepper and blasted salt.
Thrill each side for four minutes at torchmark haut. Interrogate a lemon.
Embarrass any tough roots from the samphire. Then bamboozle till it's al dente with that certain je ne sais quoi.
Arabella Weir as Minty Marchmont - Posh Nosh
Well, bein a ridge runner coon thats roamed these hills all my life I dont have to ask who is a good carpenter. I know . Im at the lumber yard every day and drink coffee there with different ones . Im friends with everyone on the front desks . Made that happen to know what was goin on.
I look for subcontractors in waiting . They are too good to be paid an hourly wage and they are tooled . They are trying to be on their own but their not quite there. They dont have the clients but they have the tools and skills . They been working for a contractor for 10 years and they are 30 to 35 yrs old . They have tooled up waiting for this time and they have the knowledge and at that age the speed. Otherwise whats known as top hands that went out on their own. Some were working foremens.
Now the truth is they arent smart enough just yet. Reason being they dont know what their operating expenses are just starting out . They will take a couple days that leads to a few weeks here and there to fill in operating at near wages .
So you get all that for wages basically and send them out with their own tools and truck . My Dad did it for years ." If you ever need a few days give me a call." Lots of them stayed after starving out trying to make it here and there all the while not charging enough. Happens all the time so you might as well benifit from the mistakes they are making.
Tim
Very insightful story. Fits my early years as a contractor and sub too. Skills and ambition to be sure but not much business sense. Tough way to make a living, much less get ahead.
Great points.F
Flay your Suffolk bought-this-morning sole with organic hand-cracked pepper and blasted salt.
Thrill each side for four minutes at torchmark haut. Interrogate a lemon.
Embarrass any tough roots from the samphire. Then bamboozle till it's al dente with that certain je ne sais quoi.
Arabella Weir as Minty Marchmont - Posh Nosh
Giving yourself a big pat on the back for figuring how to profit off other's mistakes and misfortune - thats the WalMart way!
View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Edited 8/5/2009 10:21 am by Huck
It is what it is .
and you are what you choose to be.View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
predatory
Thats how I make a living.
Edited 8/5/2009 11:09 am by Mooney
I'd rather starve. That's how I live with myself.View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
You're reading too much into his statements.
It's a mischaracterization to say that he's "profiting off their mistakes" and then making a statement about it in a negative manner. Those might be his words but that isn't really what is happening.
In a way, he's helping them keep their bills paid while he pays them fairly. Fairly is a debateable term. Should he spend his time, money and effort to teach them the realities of staying in business? Of course not: they are his competition. But, that doesn't mean he has to bury them either, and he isn't.
I picked off a few of those types of carpenters myself but typically, business was so good, even the dumb could survive. They sometimes got buried when they figured out the IRS bill or their workers comp or liability.
Tim's relationship with those youngsters (35 is young if you are older than dinosaurs) was really a retail/wholesale relationship. Tim was getting them at a price that made it possible for him to resell their services and make a profit. As such, Tim was adding value to their services and because of that relationship, everyone was winning.
It's a mischaracterization to say that he's "profiting off their mistakes" and then making a statement about it in a negative manner. Those might be his words but that isn't really what is happening.
Those were his words. And I said I don't agree with that tack. You can defend his approach all you want, but I'll never agree with it.View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
I think you're being unfair to Mooney on this. It's not the Walmart Way it's the way of business. What would you do if you had a competent sub that you trusted and knew would give you good work and honor any warranty issues give you price that you doubted he was going to make any money on? Tell him to bid it higher?
I think you're being unfair to Mooney on this.
Poor Mooney. I think he'll survive.View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Tim Money and I have agreed to disagree before, so I'm not worried about hurting his feelings. His business plan is a "bottom line" approach, and its as old as the hills. No one has to "explain" it to me - I've been around the block enough times to know how it works. I've been a contractor for 20 years, and a carpenter for 30, so yeah, I've encountered it before. To me, its as unoriginal, uninspired, and unimaginative as they come. And to me, its one of the things wrong with our industry.
But if money is what you measure success by, yeah, I understand, it works. Tim himself ranks it up there with pregnant women and stray dogs. I'm sure there's people out there figuring how to make money off those situations, too.
I have my own approach. Mike Smith calls it "relationship-oriented". I don't have to hang out at the lumber yard to find young and dumb guys who're newly independent to "prey" on, because I use my same sub's over and over. And yes, I want them to make money too. They are not only my sub's, they're my friends. Fellow business associates. Whatever you want to call them, they are like family to me. That's my approach. It may not pay as much as Mooney's system, but it works for me and my sub's.
I hope that clarifies a few things for the rest of you, I think Tim already knew where I was coming from.View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
wasn't looking for sympathy for him, really wanted to know the answer the question I posed to you that you missed or side stepped. Here it is again:
What would you do if you had a competent sub that you trusted and knew would give you good work and honor any warranty issues give you price that you doubted he was going to make any money on? Tell him to bid it higher?
really wanted to know the answer the question I posed to you that you missed or side stepped.
I gave you the answer that you missed or sidestepped. Here it is again.
I use my same sub's over and over. And yes, I want them to make money too. They are not only my sub's, they're my friends. Fellow business associates. Whatever you want to call them, they are like family to me.
Now can you figure it out?
I want them to make money on my jobs.
--------------------------------------------------------
Let me spell it out for you, in detail.
I didn't address your question per se, because I thought you could figure it out based on my comments above, I suspected you were being sarcastic, or intentionally obtuse (in which case, see Luka). No general contractor tells their sub to bid it higher, that I know. How long have you been a general contractor for, or, are you a general contractor?
The scenario you suggest has happened, as well as a number of variations. In one case, I thought my sub bid it too low. I bumped his numbers up for my bid, and used that cushion to help him out, once he realized he was in a bind. Another time I told a sub I would discuss it with the h.o., no guarantees. I did, and they agreed to pay for some problems that no one could have foreseen when we bid it.
My concrete sub bid a little too low on a small job. As it turned out, the H.O. wanted a shed moved. I normally would have just done it to get it out of my way, no charge. But because of the situation, I charged him $250, which he agreed was fair. I chained it to my concrete sub's tractor, he pulled it over in about 5 minutes. I levelled it and blocked it, and paid him the $250.
Now, before they submit their bid, I've warned them "be sure you're covered on this one", meaning don't bid it too low and come crying to me later. Which sometimes they do anyway, people being people and all.
Do my sub's reciprocate? You bet. I've had small jobs where I was in a bind and needed them, more than once my subs have helped me out on short notice, and never even billed me. Or billed me so little I knew they were just helping me out.
Right now I'm awaiting final payment on a job I finished several weeks back. Normally my subs would be paid up, but right now things are very tight. So I can't pay them until I get paid. They aren't calling me or bugging me. They're just sitting tight and waiting. I called them, they both basically said No problem, I know when you get paid you'll pay me.
I have a jobsite trailer, with no job to put it on right now. Guess where it is. One of my sub's has a yard. He lets me keep it there, rent free. I could go on and on, but I think you get the point.
View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Edited 8/5/2009 5:33 pm by Huck
yes I am a licensed GC. among other things. I don't care to use subs that can't keep there numbers straight during a job. If they come to me for more $$ because they figured wrong, that's the last job they work for me. I haven't had to find a new sub for 2 years now.
for me it's a business, not a charity. Same for the subs I use.
My subs and I are a team, we work together. Sometimes unanticipated costs arise in the course of the job. We work together to solve those issues as they arise, sometimes they can help me out, sometimes I can help them. That's business. If you've been using the same subs for two years, then I assume your relationship with your subs is not predatory. As far as business vs. charity - more sarcasm, I assume?View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
my business policy that my subs hear over & over, is No business in freinds, no friends in business. It's all business.
"What would you do if you had a competent sub that you trusted and knew would give you good work and honor any warranty issues give you price that you doubted he was going to make any money on? Tell him to bid it higher?"
Not quite the same situation but while pricing out some D. Fir beams several years ago I had three quotes: two from lumberyards and one from two young guys with a mobile mill. The first two were around four grand, theirs was $1700. I called them back and told them they had the job and their price was $3000.
Beautiful beams made a beautiful entry. They have slowly learned the business end of their trade and we work together quite a bit.
Of course the situation morally was much easier for me because the higher price came out of my pocket not a client, but I have also been on the other end of such a situation. We were told to re-think a bid on a post and beam house by the architect. They wanted skilled framers and didn't want a money losing price hanging over the project. They suggested we work by the hour instead.
Good to hear I am not alone.. Been in your shoes and did the same thing.
I am not at all opposed to reviewing a subs bid , handing it back and telling him to add $ to it he didn't have his #### covered.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Sometimes my better judgement forsakes me and I post in threads like this. I just find them depressing. People either have a scrap of humanity or they don't and nothing we write here will change that.
Yea, but sometimes it is nice to know you aren't alone out there....So I thought I would post to that you.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
True. Thanks.
Each his own.
Takes two to make an agreement .
I was visiting with Square Peg not long ago and she felt Jerry Jones of the Cowboys was bad because he talked a smaller city into investing into his franchise with the arena when Dallas turned him down. So the good people are paying taxes into his wealth. That kinda deal. Bad Jerry.
The city had a meeting and voted on it and agreed to the deal. They signed the other half of that contract. If the people are to be upset they need to be upset with who they elected to represent them. They made the bad decision if there was one . And so it goes.
Then again somtimes the whole story is not out there. Like you starving for instance . That would be unfortunate when you coulda fed your kids . Works both ways so be careful to throw stones.
Tim
Read again, Money, I haven't thrown any stones. I said I'd rather starve than take a predatory view of my fellow tradesmen. You're calling that "throwing stones"? My kids have always eaten well. View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Seems like you got your hackles up to me .
You said you would rather starve .
Considering lets say you were starving the kids would be too and that would be unfortunate. I dont think you would rather starve and I dont think you would let your kids go hungry either . But what ever , thats why I said that.
Now to the way we both do business I see that as pretty simple .
Im guessing you do a lot of work for customers and have to have a relationship with subs to complete those jobs in a timely fashion like all the contractors I know do it . Then the contractor and the subs all sing kum by ya and every one is a happy family. Ive seen it all my life . I know the drill. The better you are to your subs the quicker they jump through their butt to hit your job in a timely fashion . I know it works and you have customers to please . You also depend on your customers for your living so
If you walked on my job its one that I own. I dont please anyone . Dont have to. Its my job and my money. My subs get paid cash the night they get done on the tail gait . Every time a sub gets done Im there with the cash. I always pay on the spot which is important to me cause I want them to do a little jumping too. Now to me the cash is extra trouble . Id rather write a check. I get their bill and have to use it as my only record. But they are impressed to get 100 dollar bills the night they get done . Then I dont have to have a relationship with them. I dont want one .
Ive got a carpet layer I will give first chance to every single time . I called and said when can you be here ? He said it will be four days , will I still have the job? Thats the way it is . Hes comming friday and I can wait but he hasnt done the last three houses. Hes doing this one . He might not do the next . I dont want a friend in a sub. Different reasons than you ,thats all. The reason I use him is he brings a crew that can lay a house in a day easy. I want him off my clock and he knows it . He doesnt start work till 10 oclock for the public . Hes there at 8 for me but he doesnt like it . He likes cash though. He doesnt work any cheaper for me than anyone else but he is cheaper considering I only see him one day and hes gone . No sub ties my job up .
I am a bottom dollar man as old as it is but it works . Theres several thats tried competing with my prices . Good luck on that . My houses sell first cause guess what ? Im a cash man. I give extra incentives in cash dollars. I pay 2 percent over the 5 percent commision if my house sells in 30 days of the listing and that goes to the successful agent that gets it to the table . I could care less who it is but apparently they do cause they fight over it . A house brings 1 percent per month of what its worth in rent . So two months is paid if they save me a month actually. I would have lost it anyway if they didnt sell it . Im happy to pay it . Thats gets them jumping as well.
Tim. I don't think I'll change anyone's mind about anything, least of all yours. But I do appreciate the opportunity to discuss business views, because sometimes its good to examine what I do, and why.
First off, let me clarify that I've never starved, nor have my kids. I said I'd rather, rather starve than do business the way that you do. Meaning, thats how reprehensible it is to me.
You said "The better you are to your subs the quicker they jump through their butt to hit your job in a timely fashion." I don't know what that means. My subs all tend to get to my job in a timely fashion, which is generally pretty easy because I schedule things to avoid surprises, and keep in communication with everyone I might be needing in the near future. I don't treat my subs a certain way to get them to "jump through their butt", I just try to treat them the way I like to be treated.
You say "I dont want a friend in a sub. Different reasons than you ,thats all." You know Tim, I don't go fishing, bowling, or even hang out with my sub's. While on the job, I've been known to take them out to lunch, and sometimes they take me out to lunch. They're my friends because I respect them, they respect me, they come to my jobs with a positive, helpful attitude, and we get along well on the jobsite. To view them as someone to prey upon is as distasteful to me as your "jump through their butt" hyperbole.View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
First. let me say that none of this is intended as a personal slam, but it could be taken that way.I have plenty respect for both you AND Tim. I have had a lot of the same thinking as you in the past, but have learned why that is not good business for anyone involved.I've been reading along here and feel like I need to jump in with another POV"First off, let me clarify that I've never starved, nor have my kids. I said I'd rather, rather starve than do business the way that you do. Meaning, thats how reprehensible it is to me."You mentioned earlier in this thread that you now have subs who are waiting for their money. I won't use the word reprehensible, but I feel some sort of revulsion to letting myself be in a position where that situation comes up. I don't recall that I have ever allowed it to. You owe it to people under you to be able to pay what you owe, when you owe it.That is one reason fro making profit on jobs. Cash flow keeps you fluid and your business alive. Without it, everyone connected to you is hurt in one way or another.So by your choice of how to do business, you have made a choice to hurt someone.Here is another way of looking at it - back in the seventies, I was explaining/apologizing to a GC for raising my rates and agonizing over it.He told me not to apologize, but to be glad to be able to do it. he stated, to my amazement, that in his eyes, it would be IMMORAL for me to charge less than I could get. That the moral thiung to do is to be sure to charge enough to STAY in business, because if I went under, then he would be stuck with using hacks again for his roofs. That if all the good roofers tried to compete on low dollar prices with those hacks, then they would have to lower the standard of workmanship, and flood the market with cheap low quality roofs. Put another way, he wanted and American roof, not a chinese one.
;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Your post is not without some good points. Except I couldn't let this one slide: "You mentioned earlier in this thread that you now have subs who are waiting for their money. I won't use the word reprehensible, but I feel some sort of revulsion to letting myself be in a position where that situation comes up. I don't recall that I have ever allowed it to. You owe it to people under you to be able to pay what you owe, when you owe it."
Now, I don't know whether this is a joke or what. Geez, Paul, for most of us these are incredibly difficult times. The news today said there's an increase in unclaimed, unburied bodies, because people can't even afford to bury their loved ones who passed away. Think it'll do some good to write them a letter and tell them how reprehensible that is? Shame them by telling that we always bury our dead relatives.
So when you say "by your choice of how to do business, you have made a choice to hurt someone." - it seems to me that statement would apply more to the mortgage companies and the corporate frauds who created this mess, than to the little guy at the bottom of the food chain who's become a victim of this prolonged nightmare.
Its ironic that you're using that logic to criticize me, when the whole reason I entered this thread is to disagree with someone who brags they find inexperienced contractors who underbid, and preys on them - and then comes here and promotes that as a viable business strategy. Does that strategy become more moral in your eyes because it has increased someone's profits?
While its easy to sit on a high horse and cast aspersions, I'm quite sure I'm not alone in dealing with some very non-standard circumstances. Although, I'm aware, where you are things are not so bad. Home prices here are one third what they were before the crash. Foreclosures are going for $50K at auction. Take a look here, to see what has happened to home prices in my town. Think you can beat that in your neighborhood? I didn't think so. Practically every other house in my neighborhood is vacant, and in foreclosure.
All my subs always get paid in a timely fashion. The guys I've mentioned have been paid a big percentage. There is only the unpaid balance they are awaiting. Not huge, but significant enough in these times that I appreciate their patience.
On pricing, you're preaching to the choir. Unlike Tim who brags 'think you can beat me on price? - good luck!', I am almost ALWAYS the high bidder - probably one reason I'm still in business (although teetering on the brink) when most of my competition here in town has folded. Of course, the unlicensed uninsured cash-under-the-table guys proliferate. Which is one reason I detest contractors bragging that they find inexperienced guys who don't know how to cover their costs yet, to prey on. That mentality, in my opinion, hurts all of us, and is what I've battled against most of my career.
View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Edited 8/7/2009 11:25 am by Huck
Were getting this thread out of the muck now .
Im impressed with the way things are where you are .
That is prime rental property. Pick up as much as you can handle of them at 50 grand a piece . Those people cant own them right now but they can rent . Check the rental situation. Are the people still there in town or did they move off? What industry do you have there? My houses dont look like california houses but thats exactly what I have for rentals and its exactly how I got them. Its what I flip too. I buy most of them at auction on the court house steps . These kind of houses, is how I make my living . Thats why Im a bottom dollar guy. You could rent these houses until the economy breaks and triple your money at least . Most people dont have this opportunity and if they do dont have the skills .
Edit; These houses dont take any money to buy. Not at 50 grand a piece . The bank will loan it all or set holding nothing.
View Image
Edited 8/7/2009 11:20 am by Mooney
Thanks Tim for the heads-up. I've looked into it before, but circumstances haven't been right for me. One of my subcontractor friends has rental properties, and it has been keeping him afloat. If I had the financial wherewithal, I'd jump in a heartbeat. View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Seems like you are getting on your high horse misunderstanding me as much as you do Mooney.My point is that if you charge more, make more profit you have money on hand so your subs don't have to wait, which in turn means you get the best subs and good value prices from them.And the overall economy does not effet that principle. I don't ask anyone to do a job if I don't know exactly where the money is to pay them one way or another. I've been down forty grand to keep my people current before. If I can't swing it, I don't do the job.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
One point i would like to make is after i established myself, Paid workers comp, Lic fees and took longer on a job to be OSHA compliant these same guys hanging round the lumberyard had no problem at all undercutting me whenever they could and laughing about it besides.
My point is that if you charge more, make more profit you have money on hand so your subs don't have to wait, which in turn means you get the best subs and good value prices from them.
And the overall economy does not effet that principle.
No, it doesn't. It just effects a business' ability to apply it in all situations - snork!
BTW, I already charge "high" for my market in order to have money on hand to pay my subs, and I already have the best subs and get good value prices from them. Tell me something I don't already know. =)
View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Edited 8/7/2009 3:55 pm by Huck
Sounds to me as if that GC treated you as a friend and acted as your mentor. That is considerably different than the scenario laid out here about not having friends in business.
( Personally I am not to certain about the ..""it would be IMMORAL for me to charge less than I could get..". That rationalizing comment leaves every rip off contractor a wide open door to justify his over charging for shoddy work )
But charging enough to earn a profit and stay in business makes sense for both parties if they desire an ongoing relationship.
My own experience in both residential and commercial is that the bigger the GC the less they care about how fast you get paid nor if you are in business any longer than your warranty lasts. They will replace you at the drop of a penny if it profits them and that attitude breeds the reciprocal attitude of "get it while I can , no matter how" attitude on the part of the subs.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Good points. The whole issue of no friends at work is ridiculous, to me. Looking up "friend", I find these definitions, "a person attached to another by feelings of personal regard. A person who gives assistance. A person who is on good terms with another; a person who is not hostile."
So these people who advocate "no friends at work" do not have personal regard for their subcontractors, do not give or expect assistance, and prefer a hostile environment working among people not on good terms with one another? Wow, that's something to be proud of? Come on.
My subcontractors are not my drinking buddies. We don't get together to watch the world series or the superbowl. I don't hang out with them, or play cards with them. What I do is respect them, try to pay them well and in a timely fashion, and assist them in any way possible while on the jobsite with them. And they in turn respect me, work my jobs in a timely and professional manner, assist me in any way they can while on the jobsite. I will not tolerate a hostile environment on my jobsites, as that's one of the reasons I went into business for myself.View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
let me clarify what I wrote about No friends in business, no business in friends. It's not that I don't think of those guys as friends (I drink beers with a couple of them, but work is hardly ever discussed then) but on the job or discussing pricing on a job, it's all business and far from hostile as you & others wrongly assumed. I'm looking for maximum yield as they should be doing the same because we're in business and not doing a hobby. I never ask them for special pricing for me nor have any of them asked that of me. They never have to wait to get paid. We all know where we stand. Business is business. If one of their competitors offers me a better price and I trust their work, guess who is getting the job? The regulars know that and price themselves accordingly. I've also never had any of the regulars give me a price so high that tells me they don't want my work. On the site, it's not about being friends, it's about being professionals.
If a friend asks me to bid a job, I tell them I have no special pricing for them since the subs have no special pricing for me to offer friends. Working for friends at a lower price has me losing money while I could be working for full price for a regular customer. (Dad would be the only exception.)
some people have a hard time separating social life and business. I don't.
predator? no. mercenary? probably.
as an example a friend of mine (yes I do have friends believe it or not) bought an oil change business. Business was good for him and he ended up buying a few more stores. Business got too busy for him so he hired his son to be his manager. He expected his son to do the job right. good business practice would've had him auditing the books on a regular basis or some type of checks & balances to be sure his employee/son was doing the right thing and paying taxes. But he wanted to trust his son. His son cost him a bankruptcy and the loss of all the business. He understood the meaning of my policy then. You can hire friends/family but you gotta treat it like business.
You and I apparently do business very much alike. So who was making the wrong assumptions?
BTW, a contractor friend of mine hired his "friend" as an accountant. He trusted him. Guy took everything he owned, cleaned him out. He went from very successful contractor to bankrupt and unlicensed in a short time. It was life-changing. I'm well aware of the dangers of not treating your business like a business.View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
>So who was making the wrong assumptions?<.
I was thinking it might've been you from a previous post that contained
The whole issue of no friends at work is ridiculous, to me.So these people who advocate "no friends at work" do not have personal regard for their subcontractors
tell me if I was reading it wrong.
I do find it interesting that people pay more than quoted on pricing. I wonder if they do that at the grocery store sales, gas stations, etc. and other places? (I can't imagine someone saying You know? Your gas is 10¢ less than across the street. Do you mind if pay you only 5¢ less than them?)
I like discussing this. I knew a lot of GCs that were very good at their trade but they had no business skills. Nearly all of them are out of business or in the process of getting there (amyeb just faster than me.). It was easy for poor business managers to make money when the economy was fat, but not so when they economy is as lean as it is now.
""I do find it interesting that people pay more than quoted on pricing. I wonder if they do that at the grocery store sales, gas stations, etc. and other places?"" No, but I do make sure I pay for what I get and don't take advantage of a mistake on their part when on occasion they don't ring something up or ring it up incorrectly .
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
if you omit something from your contract to a HO or GC or Business owner do you ask them to void that one so you can rewrite a new one that includes the missed item and has a higher price?
No I don't, unless it was a clear oversight that he as well should have caught. But if a sub comes to me with a reasonable explanation of an error or omission that I hadn't caught as well I will do my best to see what can be done to make it right.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Yes, you were reading things that weren't there.
BTW, our business is a little different from the retail grocery business. Check out this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2a8TRSgzZYView Image bakersfieldremodel.com
well ok then. Not sure how I could've been that far off but stranger things have happened.
funny vid BTW
funny vid BTW
Yeah, my mind just goes off with all kinds of spinoffs, based on the goofy stuff I hear. Like one guy tells me "I just got a cut in pay, and my credit cards were killing me, so I cut them up, and now I live paycheck to paycheck - so bid accordingly."
OK, right, so I see this video of me, going in the hardware store, and trying that line on them. Or my worker's comp company. Then going back to him and saying, "Gee mister, I explained that to all the people that I have to pay from your job, but surprisingly, none of them were willing to drop their prices because of your unfortunate pay cut. Maybe you could come with me, and explain it to them." Think he'd still believe in that line?
View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Edited 8/7/2009 3:23 pm by Huck
Lemme throw in an situation that came up in my small business some years ago, see how you all might have done differently than me.
Went on a sales call for a vinyl liner in-ground swimming pool. Gentleman wants a slightly different liner than is stock.
In order to price the job correctly I call the distributor's sales department and give them all the information required to price out the complete kit, including the custom liner.
I get a call back with their price. I draw up a contract with my client and we sign it.
Having done business with this large distributor for a year or more, I'm familiar with their terms: Cashier's check for the full amount upon delivery.
Scheduled delivery goes as planned, driver accepts check for full price on bill. Pool gets installed. I get paid.
About a week later I get a call from the distributor's sales department. They say that I owe them $500 extra for the custom made liner. I tell them that I priced the job based on their quote, paid according to their terms and that I don't owe them anything.
They say that they're passing along the additional amount that they were charged by the liner company. I tell them that they knew it was a special order because they had to have it made and that they should've asked the liner company about pricing at the time.
They say I owe them $500 and must pay. I say I paid the price given me, exactly according to their terms.
They say that I should bill the client for the $500. I say, no way.
I'll add the final outcome after any comments from you all.
I probably would not have paid it, based on the way they handled it. If they had called, politely explained the situation, and said Hey, we goofed, and now we're in a bind here, can you help us out, I might have at least tried to work with them.
On the other hand, if you have to continue doing business with them, then a call to talk things over with the head honcho would be in order. He's got to want to keep you happy, too.View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
So would you base your response on politics or principles?
I appreciate how politics come into play as part of any business relationship so I don't criticise that point of view but I'm wondering where you draw the line.
In the example I gave, if the distributor's salesperson had appealed to you in a way that caused you to sympathize with his position would you have paid the extra $500 or what?
Where would the money have come from? Would you take it out of your profits, even if that $500 represented 100% of the profit on that job? Or would you have explained the situation to the client and asked him to come up with another $500?
I'm not sure your point here, but if I felt sorry for the salesperson, would I reach in my pocket and pull out $500 to bail them out of their mistake? I must be misunderstanding something, because that's not even a tough question. No I wouldn't.View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
So how would you have "tried to work with them" without paying them the $500?
If they said that they would refuse to do business with you if you didn't pay them, what then?
The situation was that they were the exclusive distributor for a mass produced pool which was the low priced standard for many contractors who competed directly in the same market. Without that distributor as one option, all potential sales would have to depend on a sales pitch for higher quality over price, or sacrificing a big chuck of my profits to make sales.
Edit: I'm not trying to trick you into contradicting yourself. I'd just like to know where the rubber meets the road between your view of principles and how you apply them in business.
Do your principles change or become less important under circumstances when you might lose something? Is that kind of thing simply a practical adjustment that has to be made or what?
How do you determine what is in your best interest, between principles and profits?
Edited 8/7/2009 6:43 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
I'm not trying to trick you into contradicting yourself. I'd just like to know where the rubber meets the road between your view of principles and how you apply them in business.
Do your principles change or become less important under circumstances when you might lose something? Is that kind of thing simply a practical adjustment that has to be made or what?
How do you determine what is in your best interest, between principles and profits?
Again, I'm not sure what you're angling at here. Principles never change, that's why they're principles. The application of principles has to adapt to each situation, but that's not 'situational ethics', thats just the reality of life's vagaries. As far as the balance between principles and profits, or the importance that you place on your principles, that's a matter for the conscience to sort out.
I've discussed this in other threads, where I dealt with the question, Is craftsmanship an ethical issue?
The principles in play here seem pretty clearly to be the sellers' failure to figure the extra cost of custom work, then trying to get you to cover for their error. That's entirely on them.
Now, would I consider helping defray some of that cost? Maybe, if the seller were a solid business associate who's relationship I valued, and if I was approached in a manner reflecting that they are requesting me to help them defray the cost of their error.
What would I do specifically? Hard to say, until I'm in that exact situation. First thing that comes to mind, is have a sit-down with the seller and the custom fabricator. Why is the price $500? Is it $100 materials, $200 labor, and $200 markup? Then maybe I'd spring for the materials cost, if it were in my budget.
Would I just let myself be 'forced' to pay the $500 to cover their error? No, I'd probably walk away from the business relationship at that point, because it would be setting a dangerous precedent, and the relationship wouldn't be worth salvaging at that cost. That's my take on it.View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Looks like you've got a better grasp of principles and ethics than a couple of your previous remarks in this thread might lead one to believe. Thanks for accepting my hypothetical questions and replying to them at length.
In the situtation I presented, I did go up the management ladder, after receiving a bill in the mail for the extra $500.
Knowing something about custom liner orders from previous experience with other companies, I suspected that the sales manager was looking for ways to cover a cash flow problem or just trying to gouge a small contractor at the end of the pool season. This kind of BS is common enough in the NYC, New Jersey area.
I got stonewalled all the way up to the big boss. He said that he wasn't going to overrule his sales manager on this but he'd let it go to arbitration with an outside firm. After verifying the arbitration company's credentials I agreed to split their fee with the pool distributor and let it be decided in that way.
I was sent a form to fill out, a request for documents and for my statement of the events. I wrote it out briefly, telling it as I have here, and sent it in with a copy of the signed bill and the cashier's check.
The arbitration company ruled in my favor. The pool distributor's response was that if I wanted to do business with them, I'd still have to pay the $500.
Needless to say, I laughed at their audacity.
I my view, there are many good reasons for not doing business with low lifes, the main one being the danger of becoming like them.
Sometimes the universe is speaking about career paths. "When one door closes, another opens". Holding to principles invites that process and gives one the clarity to recognize and accept it gratefully.
You properly called the company so you could get your pricing right. They made an error. They gave you a price and you committed to it and sold their product based on it.
I wouldn't cover their error anymore than I would expect them to cover my error if I accidently ruined it during the install.
" Sounds to me as if that GC treated you as a friend and acted as your mentor"I think it would be safe to say that he Became my friend, in part beause of that conversation
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Its a good subject actually.
My whole life this has been happening .
The contractor makes money on top of me .
The owner of the house wants to know how cheap I can do it then a year later sells the house for a profit .
Somthing has to happen to make a profit . You dont just TACK it on. It has to be with in the price or the price will be paid elswhere. Profits have to be earned.
Tim
I was once that guy, Young and fast but not that smart, A lot of people saw i would bust my butt for a chance to establish myself at not much more then wages. I think thats the breaking point for tradesmen. Can you get to the next level or resign yourself to be a wage earner only. Heres where one out of a Hundred break through. My surprising turn for me was i was never going to make it as just a carpenter in a small town but HAD to do everything. At this point severe apprenticeship came to the rescue as very strick old timers taught me from ground up. I went into roofing and even dabbled with tree work, Sheetrock. Masonry etc.. There were several landlords around that i could get on for days pay on tougher jobs there hands could not do.. I needed those days pay bad back then.
Tim and your mentors are doing nothing more than buying skilled and semi-skilled labor at wholesale prices. There is nothing predatory about that. It's always a take it or leave it proposition with room for negotiation.
Tim happens to know where the numbers need to be for him to buy the services of these young men. If they sell below what Tim is prepared to pay, no one can say this is predatory. Instead, the youngsters should spend more time learning basic business principles. If they have chosen to enter into self employment and skipped Business 101, then they are destined to fail. Sometimes they will get lucky and old guys like Tim and your mentors will help them float along.
If the business relationship between the learned, and unlearned, is sufficient to keep both parties happy, the relationship will continue and benefit both. In Tim's case, he's happy to keep the youngster in business because he likes the low prices and skilled services. He needs those to stay in business himself. The youngun gets the benefit of paying his bills while he buys some times to stay afloat. At some point, if he stays in business long enough, he'll figure it out that he is worth more and can charge more. It's at that time that Tim will have to study his own numbers and make a decision.
This is the same business principle that applies in every business. If someone is selling donuts and charges too much, they fail. If they charge too little, they work a lot but fail. There is some mid range that satisfies all the needs of both the customers and providers. The young carpenter business man is trying to sort all of this out.
I myself decided that I didn't mind builders "preying" on me and paying me less than I could get if I framed directly for homeowners. It was a business decision and I often turned down homeowners who walked up and asked me to bid their plans. I knew I could get 20 to 30% more for my services (that was the markup that the builders HAD to get to survive) but I also knew that selling RETAIL would take up more of my precious time. I had better things to do and was satisfied to be "preyed upon" by builders who hired me and paid me what I asked.
We all pay our dues when we enter business. Some dues are less than others. In the end, things are as they should be in most cases.
Very good post .
You explained it better than I did.
Ive been that guy too Bobby.
I think we all have been that guy.
Not pleasant to dwell on but its part of life .
Girls getting in a family way , stray dogs , etc , all have to be dealt with .
The truth is as you say is not many make it to the next level. Its so easy to go on your own and so hard to make it . But its the dream of every young tradesman to go out on their own and be their own boss. Seems like everyones got to taste it .
The lumber yard has that kind in it every morning if they arent busy but they drift in and out of work. They always say somthing at the desk. They ask questions as they should . That also leaves a trail to them good or bad. Same thing at the paint store . Want a painter out of work? Ask the desk. They have been there and left a trail.
Predatory may be or may not be the right word but I dont gloss it up. I wont make any excuses. I went through the ranks just like they are and found my self shooting out sides of new houses for 100 dollars. They were cedar then and the contractors didnt have guns . I should have raped them but I wasnt smart enough. They probably made over 100 on top of me . They did nothing . So it goes. If contractors couldnt make a profit off help they wouldnt be in business. So it is with every thing else.
Its a good subject actually.
True. It's not something I want to dwell on, how poor a businessman I've been most of my life, but it's worth looking at in order to recognize that I'm the one who's been responsible for the state of my finances, throughout my time in the trades.
It's not the people who took advantage of my situation in order to get their jobs done under budget. And it's not fate. It's me and me alone who has put me where I am.
Understanding and accepting that responsibility allows me to let go of my negative thoughts about the past and begin again with a new resolve and a better appreciation of how to do business.
Good post. For me the breaking point is if I search out and knowingly take advantage of the lack of knowledge in another.
That is predatory to me. Different kettle of fish when I know that someone is just filling a blank space in their schedule or just getting started and want to gain market exposure and they are willing to work for the wage. In that case I know that they know what they are doing to/for themselves and for me.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
predatory insinuates that the individual doesn't live after your done with them. Not the right term but I can't think of a better one. Crafty & Frugal come to mind.
"No longer want to teach. Just want to hire and almost not watch"You gotta pay better than what you are suggesting then.
but if you hire for bottom dollar, you gotta invest time in teaching them.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"For those who wouldn't take the test - my guess is you are not looking for work and you get most of your work from referrals. You aren't, and haven't been for a long time, part of my labor pool."That right there may be the crux of why you have poor quality people and need to complain about them and change them and their diapers.I get most of my good help by asking others for referrals. I talk to other carpenters to find out what good carps are looking for work, or call the lumberyards where I buy and ask who is available right now that is worth having.Last thing I want to do is go fishing blind in a pool
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Long ago I was asked to build a sawhorse before I would be considered for a job. Got on as a journeyman.
Mike
Small wheel turn by the fire and rod, big wheel turn by the grace of god.
i agree with the sawhorse test, seems fairly standard to to me.
I got a comment for you, stick the job where the sun don't shine.
mike
Alaska in the winter?
It was so sweet of you to take the time to reply. Your insight is so refreshing and offers a perspective which few of us have considered. Your family must be so proud to have someone as wise and articulate as yourself amongst them.Thank you so much,Frankie
Flay your Suffolk bought-this-morning sole with organic hand-cracked pepper and blasted salt.
Thrill each side for four minutes at torchmark haut. Interrogate a lemon.
Embarrass any tough roots from the samphire. Then bamboozle till it's al dente with that certain je ne sais quoi.
Arabella Weir as Minty Marchmont - Posh Nosh
You're welcome
mike
Frankie - I found that framing test I put together way back when. I was going to type it out, but its kinda long for typing purposes. If you send me a fax number, I can fax it to you, or if you send me a physical mailing address I could mail it to you. Take whatever you want from it, or use the whole thing, don't matter to me. Email me at [email protected] if you'd like me to send it to you. - Huck
Somthing else .
YOu probably thought I was directed at you . I am not .
Im gonna tell you a story.
Heres the beginning . Every time we played kum ba yah on a residential job I didnt make any money. Every time I had to treat a business assoiate like a brother inlaw I didnt make any money. As the loving relationship went on Tim was short more funds.
Heres the middle . I left the residential industry and subbed for commercial contractors. Heres the major difference . Instead of trying to get me on their job with a butt slap they had serious work. They dont ask for favors . They play my way of understanding . Ive got three 18 wheelers of drywall comming . Can you handle the job and let me worry about other things ? The money was about the same per sq ft without the bs . They just want results and they want them quick. Thats my style too. I understood it. I made a lot more money working than playing patty butt with a residential contractor over 100 to 200 sheets. Simple math. Old school bottom line . An 18 wheeler carries 552 sheets of 12ft drywall to be with in 80,000 lbs . I can tape a meeting room in the same time I can tape a closet in a house . Just gotta walk a little faster and work like H^ll. Work is 7/12s till you get completion. 10,000 dollar draws are there to be had every week . Money is no problem getting with a contract. Place dont open till everyone gets paid . They dont mess around with money. Put in your draw on Monday and get a check Friday like clock work. Youre in a motel room and eating on the road all the time but the money is there.
End of the story is I do business like they do and my dad did . I wouldnt change it for anything .
OK, another post from my beloved nemesis Mr. Money. You thought of some more stuff, so I'll respond to this one too.
You said "YOu probably thought I was directed at you. I am not." I have to say, I wouldn't be having this conversation if I thought you were directing any animosity toward me. I would rather walk away than let it get to that point. Which is why I got a kick out of people saying Stop being unfair to poor Mr. Money. I figured I knew you better than that, didn't think you'd lose a moment's peace of mind over anything I said.
And I hope you realize, 'tho others might not, that I'm not directing any animosity toward you either. I detest certain things about your business model, but I find you refreshingly honest and open in discussing it, which are qualities I value in a person.
Its a tough world to make a living in, and you've found a system that works for you. I can respect that, even if I'd rather go to the dentist 5 days a week than do business the way you do.
Shoot, I might even sit down for a beer with you. We wouldn't even need the guy with the big ears to moderate.
View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Edited 8/7/2009 12:56 am by Huck
I posed this type of thing to my HR department in another industry years ago. The response I got was that you are putting yourself out on a limb if you cannot prove that the test is a statistically significant predictor of performance.
A former co-worker went off to a new job once and she was put on sub-contractor status for six months before they would offer an employee position. Their rationale was that anyone can fog their way through an interview and behave for a few weeks. If they can successfully make the six month mark, they're a keeper.
Sorry, but I did not read the 100+ other responses if someone else mentioned this.