HELLO! I AM INTERESTED IN FINDING OUT HOW A FRAMER SETS HIS PRICES (RESIDENTIAL WOOD FRAME CONSTRUCTION). WHAT ARE THE BASICS. IS IT A SET PER SQUARE FOOT ESTIMATE. HOW CAN I FIND OUT MORE INFO?. ANY DIRECTION WOULD BE GREATLY APPRECIATED!
THANKS,
TOM MAC
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Replies
FIRST THING YOU WANT TO DO IS TURN OFF THE CAPS LOCK KEY ... IT IS CONSIDERED RUDE.
Ok, now ... why do you want to know? Are you planniong a project and you need to estimate the cost? Are you having a disagreement with a framer? Are you considering going into business as a framer? And where are you ... different parts of the country charge differently.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
I can tell you how it's done here in Raleigh, NC, but I doubt that it would directly relate to where ever you live.
Most framers charge by the square foot, and adjust the rate depending on the complexity of the house... Stick built roof? number of gables? Bastard hip? Also, they have extras like installing housewrap, and there is most often a separate charge for nails. Say a easy house might be $3.50 a sq ft for heated space and $3 for unheated areas. A complex house might be $4 or as much as $5. Builder supplies all materials except nails.
Edited 11/27/2004 8:35 pm ET by DIRISHINME
So your saying thats the price for labor. How do they figure how many nails to use?
As a residential framer in southwest alabama, normal SF prices start at around 2.60/SF for 1,000 to 1400 SF, labor only, with one maybe two special ceilings, all 8' walls, 6/12 roof. That includes framing with stick framed roof/ceiling, housewrap, felt on roof. Nails are builder's responsibility, and amounts thereof are normally determined in takeoff given by lumber company rep.
I just got 3.50/SF for 1400 SF on pilings with one vaulted ceiling, 6 in 12 hip roof.
Our local range is 2.60-2.90/SF for one story with up to 3,300 SF and up to 8 in 12 roof.
Regards,
Jason
Jason Pharez - "Nails are builder's responsibility, and amounts thereof are normally determined in takeoff given by lumber company rep."
While like I said above, maybe or maybe not it all depends on the builder.
Plus if we were framers (and we will probably be getting back into framing next spring) I wouldn't want to necessarily depend upon the accuracy of the takeoff and ordering quantities prepared by another party. In the case of a builder they might skimp on or cut it "close to the bone" on order quatities to save a few bucks which could leave you short out in the field during production and breaking off production due to missing materials costs a lot lot more than most everyone ever thinks about. In fact I would say 99.9% of the time it never worth the few bucks saved trying to keep fasteners orders to a minimum.
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Jerrald,
For the three builders I have worked for in the past, all have had their own lumber co. rep. who delivered x amount of nails on house y...if we needed more, we call the lumber rep, who bills the builder...builder has never questioned our crew as to the exact quantity needed.
Nail shortages don't normally affect productivity as we carry a "reserve" (if you will) on the trailer for those tight moments, plus the extras we've collected from jobs past that currently reside in our sheds at home.
Regardless, thanks for the advice and good info.
-Jason
I am almost certain that was a rhetorical question. I never used to worry about the cost of fastners till this last summer..a cedar roof used 0ver 48,000 nails...at 120$ per 6K..they add up.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
Steel prices suck, pvc prices suck,copper prices suck...do you want to talk about lumber? I'm putting a bid ceiling of 30 days on things to at least try to rein it in,thinking about a new company exercise program were we ride bicycles to the job.
Jemcon - "So your saying thats the price for labor. How do they figure how many nails to use?"
While nails are a relatively small or even tiny percentage of the cost of the total framing package when your developing a SF Estimate there is just no way you can derive how many and what kind of nails to supply from that kind of estimate. In fact to accurately determine nail and fastener requirements even a Systems estimate wont be all the precise, you really need a Unit Cost estimate to calculate those kinds of numbers and quanties.
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Matt while I agree with you that "Most framers charge by the square foot, and adjust the rate depending on the complexity of the house..."in that is unfortunately what most framer do I also think that's a real poor business practice. What criteria do they or should they use for adjusting the rate? What you then are saying (and it's what I see too among the contractors I work with both on a contracting and/or business consulting basis too) is that when things start to vary off of what is typical or normal (just what is typical or normal framing too?) then they start to add for "extras". Essentially they then move more towards a System or Unit Cost estimate which while better than a pure SF Footprint Estimate is still only going halfway. There is still an inaccurate underlying SF Estimate forming the basis of their price. Why not go all the way and System or Unit Cost estimate the basic frame so that the problems like I illustrated in the diagram above where there are more interior walls are taken care of and properly accounted for?
"Say a easy house might be $3.50 a sq ft for heated space and $3 for unheated areas." I hear that sometimes too but wonder just what criteria determines the price for one vs. the other. More often than not is just an arbitrary number the framing contractor has SWAGed at (SophisticatedWild Assed Guess) and was never developed using a System or Unit Cost estimate.
"Builder supplies all materials except nails." They do? Always? I don't think so. It all depends. Sometimes they do and sometimes they don't.
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About framing prices in NC
Matt,
I am writing 8 years after your post. Prices are different now. Could you please help me estimating a small renovation project in Waynesville? I would appreciate if you answer.I am not asking to do something for free. Thanks.
[email protected]
i couldn't find anyone here in ks near these prices. simple garage they hit you at around 6-7 sf.i have had a bid at 11.00 sf with a 13/12 roof on the house. so i just had to get the ladder and nail gun and start after it.a ton of work,and 45 days later,and my but_ was dragging big time.larry
>> i couldn't find anyone here in ks near these prices. simple garage they hit you at around 6-7 sf.i have had a bid at 11.00 sf with a 13/12 roof on the house. <<
I think most of us above were talking new construction. The garage sounds like it could possibly be considered remodeling...
Re the $11 a square foot house, maybe that was the one above that the other poster refused to bid. 13:12 roof is not a good start at getting a cheap framing job... Matt
Here in Central Alabama we charge $3.00 Sq. Ft. for on a slab simple house. That means no special ceilings and no steep cutup roof. $1.00 sq. ft. for conventional floor framing.
We go up from there to as high as $6.00 for a real difficult house. I'm talking about 25 foot tall walls and a roof so cutup it makes you dizzy. I charge the builder for the shooting nails. He buys all material and he also rents any equipment we need such as scaffold or a platform lift.
We have had a house so complex I refused to bid it. The builder new me well and he let us do it time plus some profit. It is important to build good relationships with the builders.. They learn to trust you.
We have one builder that never gets a bid from us anymore. He just calls me and says where the next project is.
Don't forget to include the porches. If they get a roof over them then that is time consuming. I bid the porches at 3.00 sq. ft.
James Hart
nextlevel - "
Here in Central Alabama we charge $3.00 Sq. Ft. for on a slab simple house. That means no special ceilings and no steep cutup roof. $1.00 sq. ft. for conventional floor framing.
We go up from there to as high as $6.00 for a real difficult house."
"$3.00 Sq. Ft. for on a slab simple house." Why not 2.95 per SF or 3.15 per SF? When I hear contractors use numbers that are rounded off to the dollar or sometimes tens of dollars to me that's a tip off that they haven't really scientifically or mathematically determined their pricing which means their pricing is negotiable! I know a few builders who as soon as they see or hear that will pick up on that clue and try and beat you down on your price.
And I'm wondering what real criteria do you use for coming up with your price? $3.00 per SF to $6.00 per SF is a 200% difference. What drives the number in the ranges of projects that fall between the best and worst case scenarios?
"We have had a house so complex I refused to bid it. The builder new me well and he let us do it time plus some profit." Those are exactly the kinds of projects we want and thrive on (albeit we are doing them as interior architectural work right now) and one of the reasons we're thinking we want to get back into framing. As I alluded to above it's my observation that framing contractors often don't have well developed estimating systems, techniques or skills developed so I think there is a pretty good market opportunity in there for a company with well developed estimating capabilities.
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You are absolutely right. I have tried many different ways to arrive at a better pricing system. You know the old saying, "That's the way everybody does it around here".
I have looked at jobs on a day to day basis. I've tried to plan each day what we will get done but it does not work well either.
A simple house would be on a slab, low to the ground, no dormers or roof projections, eight or nine foot walls, no special ceilings and below an 812 roof. But at 3.00 sq. ft. we have to work like crazy to make money.
The problem is trying to be competitive and do a good job and make money. I never have a builder try to talk me down to a lower price. Maybe that is because we do these guys work all the time.
I am very interested in your systems approach. How do I get more info.
James Hart
James in it's simplest most rudimentary form a Systems (aka Assemblies) estimate is where you break down the project into groups of assemblies or systems that you look at separately and distinctly. You estimate is based on the quantities of how much of each system your project requires i.e.:
Floor Framing System
Exterior Wall Framing System
Window & Door Openings Systems
Interior Wall (Partition) Framing Systems
Roof Framing Systems
Dormer Systems
You work up labor productivity data (labor hours per unit) for producing each one of those systems and then obviously multiply the extended labor hours by you hourly price per hour for labor to come up with you estimate.
You can (and probably should) break those Systems/Assemblies down even further into even more specific systems for example with Floor Framing Systems which would include Girder, Box, Beam Joists Bridging & Sheathing you could have sub categories for
2x6 12" O.C. @ .073 LaborHrs per SF
2x6 16" O.C. @ .070 LaborHrs per SF
2x8 12" O.C. @ .079 LaborHrs per SF
2x8 16" O.C. @ .075 LaborHrs per SF
2x10 12" O.C. @ .081 LaborHrs per SF
2x10 16" O.C. @ .077 LaborHrs per SF
2x12 12" O.C. @ .083 LaborHrs per SF
2x12 16" O.C. @ .078 LaborHrs per SF
9-1/2" Composite Wood Joists 16" O.C. @ .051 LaborHrs per SF
9-1/2" Composite Wood Joists 24" O.C. @ .046 LaborHrs per SF
11-1/2" Composite Wood Joists 16" O.C. @ .052 LaborHrs per SF
11-1/2" Composite Wood Joists 24" O.C. @ .0483 LaborHrs per SF
Etc., etc,
My recommendation for a framer would be to maybe run down a copy of the book Contractor's Pricing Guide: Framing and Rough Carpentry 2001 (click to see a scan of a sample typical page)and take the Labor Hour figures they have for Systems and Assemblies and then if you think and feel those Labor Hour figures would work for your crew or crews then multiply the extended figures by your hourly rate. I say use the Labor Hour figures and forget about the costs they mention in the book for two reasons:
For one thing the book is now out of print so any costs in it are certainly no longer accurate and
You'll be even more precise and specific if you use your real actual costs for labor rather than book data based on statistical national averages for costs. I know where we are in NY (Westchester County) our labor costs, costs of doing business and the then resulting rates we charge are over twice what a contractor would charge in lets say Dallas Texas.
I say to use their Labor Hours figures "if you think and feel those Labor Hour figures would work for your crew or crews" because while actual the cost data wont be accurate region to region, or company to company, or year to year the productivity data will be or at least it will be reasonably close to accurate. You may just want to tweak or bump the labor hour figures up or down but at least it gives you a place and format to start with. The copy of the book that we are using to generate our pricing is a 1994 edition. It's too bad R.S Means is no longer publishing the book because I always liked it and found it helpful even though as I've mentioned earlier we're really not currently framing contractors.
Ya want a method to figure out an accurate and precise Labor Rate per hour to use for your company? There is an Excel spreadsheet I developed and I've been distributing as freeware that for short I've been calling the PILAO worksheet which is an acronym for PROOF/Indexed/Labor Allocated Overhead markup methodology. Plug in you values for all the categories that apply for you and your company and it should generate an Hourly Billing Rate you can and should use.
I say can and should use in that a few of the contractors who have downloaded the worksheet (it's been downloaded over 1500 times) say "I can't charge an hourly rate like that. That's too high". Well the numbers and formulas in the worksheet don't lie. if you can't sell you projects using the number it comes up with for a labor rate then something has to give somewhere. You'll just have to pay yourself less or find another line of work where you can make money and cover all your costs of doing business. I like to think that most people using the spreadsheet see the writing on the wall and adjust their pricing according to what the spreadsheet tells them or at least use it as an aid to evaluate there cost of doing business overhead costs.
There is certainly a lot more to both Systems/Assembly Estimating and Markup than I'm writing here tonight so you should feel free to keep digging up questions and keep the topic rolling along.
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Edited 11/28/2004 7:16 pm ET by Jerrald Hayes
Okay. I think I understand the system. It would call for a lot of work to break all that down to sub-categories. But it just might be worth it.
We make our wages and we pay our overhead and we stay in the black but we do not make any profit. Maybe this is why.
When we do a house like the one we just finished I simply do not know how to bid it. It had a 1412 with a 1012 roof. Two dormers had curved rafters 14ft. long.
You are right. There has to be a better way. I looked at three projects today and I want to try the system approach.
James Hart
Estimating, for me, is the absolute hardest part of the job. Justifing the lost time with the family or from a paying job is a big challenge. Thats the temptation for square foot estimating. Sitting down figuring the sq ft and phoning in a number. That would be sweet. Estimates in 5 minutes or less.
Some of the risk of estimating poorly or a low per Jerralds examples are offset because the estimate took 5 minuntes verses 8 hours. That being said I've never estimated anything by the square foot except sheet rock.
Edited 11/29/2004 7:03 pm ET by TMO
TMO - "Estimating, for me, is the absolute hardest part of the job. Justifing the lost time with the family or from a paying job is a big challenge."
Well I agree with you in a sense but if you have solid estimating methods, techniques, and have the cost and labor hour data in place then it doesn't take long at all. The key to it I think (and I know there are those that agree with me (people like Bob Kovacs) as well as disagree, (the "legal pad" estimators that are still out there)) is having a good solid computerized estimating system in place.
"Thats the temptation for square foot estimating. Sitting down figuring the sq ft and phoning in a number. That would be sweet. Estimates in 5 minutes or less."
Yeah you sure hit the head on the nail with that one and that is for sure why they (so many framers) do it that way. But when you think about it if you asked though framers if the would frame houses today with handsaws instead of electric circular saws or hammers instead of pneumatics they wouldn't do it but they still stick by their inaccurate SF estimates (win some lose some as far as making a profit on projects) or they'll toil away for hours with their legal pads.
"Some of the risk of estimating poorly or a low per Jerralds examples are offset because the estimate took 5 minuntes verses 8 hours."
But that risk when it backfires and catches up to you can stick you with hundreds of hour of extra work at low wages and/or even worse cash straight out of your pocket. How about spending 1 hour instead of 5 minutes producing good solid computerized Systems or Unit Cost Estimate to mitigate the risk. That's a saving of 7 hours over the legal pad estimate and I think well worth it.
"That being said I've never estimated anything by the square foot except sheet rock."
But estimating sheet rock by the SF of the surface area you're going to rock isn't really a SF estimate as we've been looking at it here (as SF of the projects footprint). Estimating sheet rock by the SF as your doing is using a Unit Cost estimating technique which is very precise and accurate. Plus or minus %5 as opposed to plus or minus %15 to 20% for the SF footprint estimate. You are smart and right on the money with your approach there.
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nextlevel (James)- "It would call for a lot of work to break all that down to sub-categories."
Well ultimately yes you would start to develop a fair amount of sub-categories and line items but then again to get yourself started along the journey you could just start out with developing numbers for the basic six I mentioned above and then you would tweak or bump the resulting numbers in each category up or down according to the project.
You might figure it out this way (this is purely hypothetical and the numbers I'm plugging in are just arbitrary and fictional so don't use them for real or you'll be screwed)
System Description
Unit
Labor Hour Production Times
High
Low
Avg
Floor Framing
SF
.083
.046
.066
Exterior Wall Framing
LF
.041
.030
.036
Window & Door Openings
LF*
.753
.123
.381
Interior Wall (Partition) Framing
LF
.030
.019
.024
Roof Framing
SF**
.174
.035
.087
Dormers
SF***
.259
.135
.184
* That's LF of Header
** That's SF of roof surface area not the plan view foot print which would be smaller and not really representative.
***
For Dormers the SF refers to square footage of their plan view foot print
So for a particular project you might (subjectively) look at it this way.
Floor Framing
is basic use the avg figure
Exterior Wall Framing
lot of corners use the high figure
Window & Door Openings
is basic use the avg figure
Interior Wall (Partition) Framing
is basic use the avg figure
Roof Framing
is complicated, steep, and with lots of intersections use the high figure
Dormers
are simple shed dormers use the low figure
So you plug all those figures into a spreadsheet or database program put in your quantities and you get:
System Description
Unit
Qty
Labor Hrs per Unit
Total Labor Hrs
Floor Framing
SF
1500
.066
99
Exterior Wall Framing
LF
370
.041
15.17
Window & Door Openings
LF*
90
.381
34.29
Interior Wall (Partition) Framing
LF
490
.024
11.76
Roof Framing
SF**
2010
.174
349.74
Dormers
SF***
400
.041
54
Estimated Total Project Labor Hours
563.96
Billing Rate per Hour
$61.00
Total Labor Only Project Price
$17764.74
Does that make sense? Are you a fairly skilled enough Excel user so that you could make a spreadsheet that works for that? Once you get something set up that works for you the actual time spent producing the estimate drops. It's creating and setting up a system that works and works consistently and with repeatable results that takes time. Well complicated takeoffs like we can get for interior finish work can take a lot of time but the way I just laid it out you as a framer would only really have to take off those 6 driving factors from a set of plans.
nextlevel (James)- ""You are right. There has to be a better way. I looked at three projects today and I want to try the system approach." If you're really interested and you'll stick with me and help me by giving me feedback on this and help me out by testing out my programs for me I'll do a lot of the basic background set up work for you in that we are developing the data for our own use over the next few months that you should then be able to modify, adjust and then use for your own operation.
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No, I'm not skilled in Excell but I do have it and I have used it some.
Yes, I want to do this systems approach and I'm a fairly quick leaner. I do know this, the money is a definite problem. I have to find a better way and this approach sounds great.
James Hart
Okay, Jerrald, I'm ready. We are starting a new framing job on Monday. It is a small. simple house. About 1700 sf. and a 812 hip roof. I already gave the builder a price of 3.00sf. for this one. In order to use the systems approach I need to carefully log down the time of each phase on this one. Is that correct?
I think I can learn to use excel without to much trouble.
I also have three jobs to bid. So, where do I go from here?
James Hart
Okay James while I think talking about how to think about and do Systems or Assembly Estimating online in this forum is a good idea and beneficial to a wide array of people I think you and I should talk on the phone so I can get some background on just what it is you do and how you do it. Yeah I know its framing but how a framer organizes his work and approaches it varies from company to company. I'll also need to know just how far you folks works as framers. For instance do you put the doors and windows in, corner boards, soffits, fascias etc??? So I'll be e-mailing you via the Prospero mail that is part of this system with my phone and e-mail address and if you pick that up send me yours and tell me what the best time is to reach you so that we can work that out.
"In order to use the systems approach I need to carefully log down the time of each phase on this one. Is that correct?" Yup sure is but that shouldn't be too hard to do especially on a small project like the one your describing to me there. What you are going to do is check those real numbers for production time against the ones generated doing a Systems Estimate.
"I think I can learn to use excel without to much trouble." Well you wont have to learn to much right off the bat anyway in that set you up and get you going with that but I think if you really want to go off on your own with this in the future and really customize your estimating methods learning excel will certainly help.
Back in msg# 50745.18 I mentioned the spreadsheet I developed that contractors can use help them set a billing rate (the PILAO worksheet). Have you looked that over and worked with it set an hourly rate or do you already have a hourly rate you use that you set up and created some other way? While estimating the Labor Time involved for for the various phases or systems or assemblies in a framing job is important its only half of the equation. You still have to know all your costs of doing business and have the correct billing rate in place. Sooo.... the question is do you (and anyone else reading this) know what is your true break-even cost per hour?
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I don't know if you got my post about being ready to start this new approach. I am very interested and want to work with you. I talked with my two sons who head up these jobs and they are all for it.
We have some projects coming up so where do I go from here?
James Hart
James I did read your post but I got a little jammed up with work these past few days and haven't had the time to really respond but I'll be available to be back online this evening. The fact that your two sons (employees) are supporting this is a huge plus working for you in your favor. Having your crew onboard to help check the data that you collect in the field makes implementing this so much easier, quicker, and more accurate. Talk to ya later.
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Nextlevel
I think you gave us a clue here.
I never have a builder try to talk me down to a lower price
Bingo. Your prices are too low. Bump 10% at the first of the year. Or 10.5% or 11.1%, etc. Send out a letter telling them you have job costed jobs for 6 months and this is the new price. You don't know if your price is too high until a builder walks away. You can start segmenting your market into buildrs that want to pay your price and those that don't. You will find lots of problems solved. A/R will get better. Supplies will be on site instead of COD. Etc.
Do 1 or 2 builders at a time so that you don't run yourself out of business in Feb. LOL
Remember the there are a bunch of subs that have gone out of business by trying to be competitive.
Good luck
SCRAPR - "I never have a builder try to talk me down to a lower price
Bingo. Your prices are too low. "
That's a brilliant and perhaps vitally important point your making right there. If you are getting all the jobs you are bidding on then something is wrong with your bidding. While it is important to develop good long term relationships with builders (right?) that's not the same thing as winning every bid that you develop for new clients (builders and/or homeowners). When we started getting too many jobs a year ago we arbitrarily bumped our markup up and didn't lose a beat. You do have to have the job leads coming in though to support that.
I/we would much prefer to work fewer jobs (and have more free time) at a higher profit margin (more money) than all the jobs (no time for baseball or skiing) at a low or narrow profit margin (no extra money left for lift tickets, ski equipment or Yankee tickets anyway)
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right on scraper... the going rate is always last year's going rate..
the poor house is full of those guysMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Hey where in central Alabama are ya? I'm down in Mobile..$2.90/SF is about max for a one story with less than 8/12 roof.
Good Morning,
I'm about 20 miles north and east of Montgomery. Been here since 1965. Lived in Mobile when we were kids. Moved here from Mobile.
Do you make any money at 2.90 sf.? What kind of wages do you pay if I may ask? I have a 1500 sf. coming up on Friday and I'm really wondering if we can do it for 3.00sf.
James Hart
Can you give me more specifics on your upcoming project, if I might ask?
Most of our 1500 sf homes are all eight foot walls (with the exception of the foyer-9'), with a box in the master bed and a vaulted in the living. No garage on this size. Roof would be 6 or 7/12 hip with maybe one offset for the master bedroom/bath, and a bay window in kitchen.
Normally 4-5 days to frame with 3-4 guys. I pay one 9/hr, one 12/hr and one 17/hr
1500x3= 4500 9x40= 360
12x40= 480
17x40= 680
680+480+360= 1520
4500-1520= 2950 which is what I have left to pay me, taxes (theirs and mine), and the business (O&P)
Jason, this one is 1740sf. with a bos in the master bedroom, 10ft. ceiling in the kitchen and great room, 4 roof projections with the main roof being a hip. 812 pitch. No garage but it has front and back porch.
5 days is moving on. I would like to see those guys work. I think we can frame this one complete in about 7 days. Mainly because of the roof and the 10 ceiling. I revised my price to 6200.00.
I have two men at $10, an hour and my son who heads up this job at $20. He has been we me for about 10 years and can do it all.
James Hart
We interrupt this discussion to bring you amateur hour ;-) I've been itching to ask some questions here, but I've not chipped in because I'm not a framer and I'm not a contractor and Jerrald is offering a lot of good advice to pros. I just peruse this forum because I want to build a house in a year or two.I just can't hold it any more though because the prices people mention just floor me. Nobody I've talked to here on my planet (California) would come close to the prices I see people mentioning. When I saw nextlevel bidding $6200 for 1740sf ($350/sf) with 10ft ceilings I just had to ask whether this is for real.I'm pretty sure in CA, I could double that and still come out ahead? Nextlevel, want to travel a bit and live in a national park while you frame? Just kidding, I have a long way to go before I get there, but just this morning I was talking to a friend of a friend who is a contractor and a framer (though his main business is cabinet making) and he said $15-$25/sf for framing labor and about that much again for materials. Anybody from high-cost areas (Northeast or CA) care to give a range of the cost on the last couple of framing jobs you've done (let's say, the last couple of *profitable* jobs you've done without necessarily making a killing).Looking at nextlevels numbers.
Two x $10/hr + 1 x 20/hr x 8hr/day x 7 days = $2240So he's still getting $4000 to cover his overhead and profit, which, if he can do that all year is $142K which sounds like a pretty good living (depending on overhead). Somehow it doesn't add up though, because the framing contractors I know who are charging way more and who are real busy, aren't grossing $500K AFAIK.If anyone wants to explain it to an amateur, please do!BTW, I've had a contractor and a structural engineer with no interest in putting one over on me (one is an acquaintance and one is a cousin, neither would be available to be involved in my job) tell me to count on $225/sf for an absolutely basic builder style house, $250/sf if I want anything special at all.Tom
Edited 12/3/2004 10:56 pm ET by tlambert
TLambert,
Nextleves numbers:
Two x $10/hr + 1 x 20/hr x 8hr/day x 7 days = $2240
California numbers
Two x $37.50/hr + 1 x 52.50/hr x 8hr/day x 12 days = $12240.
Everything esle goes up comparably
SamT
Tom - "We interrupt this discussion to bring you amateur hour ;-) I've been itching to ask some questions here, but I've not chipped in because I'm not a framer and I'm not a contractor and Jerrald is offering a lot of good advice to pros. I just peruse this forum because I want to build a house in a year or two." Well those are still good observations and questions you've brought up that are well worth looking at and I think understanding all this you can only be helping yourself in identifying and separating out the strong from the weak contractors in your future dealings with them. I know I certainly do.
"I just can't hold it any more though because the prices people mention just floor me. Nobody I've talked to here on my planet (California) would come close to the prices I see people mentioning. When I saw nextlevel bidding $6200 for 1740sf ($350/sf) with 10ft ceilings I just had to ask whether this is for real." The differences in the prices you are hearing regionally are due to both real legitimate factors and some having to do with poor or weak business skills or sometimes even both. I'll confess that I am shocked with the numbers I hear coming out of California too and as I've mentioned before I live and work in New York's Westchester County. But I think California is an amazingly strange and difficult place to do business as a contractor for sure.
The legitimate reasons framing in CA is so expensive compared to the rest of the county are:
Framing is more difficult and time consuming there. There are more and more stringent code requirements there to deal with things like landslides, forest fires, and of course earthquakes than there are elsewhere in the US which drive up the labor hours for what would otherwise be identical framing jobs.
I think that liability insurance is more expensive in CA than anywhere else.
And if that wasn't enough the rules and restrictions surrounding GL insurance restricts the contractors decision making as far as project organization goes. I am sure that helps drive costs up even further by forcing contractors to enter into project arrangements and workflow that run counter to lean or even anything resembling basic efficient production.
And Workers Comp is out of control there too. Twice what we typically pay if what I am hearing is correct.
Due to the higher costs of living there the workers have to be paid more than most all the other regions in the country except for perhaps the northeast. (See Sams msg# 50745.49)
That said I am 1000% sure there are contractors in CA that still aren't charging enough for framing just as there everywhere else in the country because:
They don't know their true cost of doing business (they don't know their true break-even cost per hour) and...
They don't really know how to estimate.
Re:"Looking at nextlevels numbers. Two x $10/hr + 1 x 20/hr x 8hr/day x 7 days = $2240"
What you are looking at there is pure wage and doesn't represent the true cost. The true cost is for those employees (which includes FICA, SS, Worker Comp, any Benefits) probably adds anywhere from 20% to 30% more to those numbers so maybe were talking about ((2 x 10 x 1.2) + (1 x 20 x 1.2)) x 8 hrs x 7 days = $2688 for the low figure to ((2 x 10 x 1.3) + (1 x 20 x 1.3)) x 8 hrs x 7 days = $2912 which leaves Gross Profit of $3512 (56%) to $3288 (53%) which may or may not be alright. We just don't know what his Overhead is or what it includes. And then again knowing how framers talk often when a framer says 7 days they aren't talking about 7 eight hour days. They are often really saying 7 ten hour days which leaves even less Gross Profit. But then again we don't really know NextLevels numbers, or the mechanics of how he sets his rate, or how he works so this is all speculation but for small company performing labor only I think that Gross Profit figure in the range of 53-56% sounds low. That Gross Profit gets eaten up pretty quickly by vehicles & equipment expenses, office & bookkeeping, marketing, etc etc so even if you use your number of $142K which is probably to high he may be left with only ####fraction of that. Typically anywhere from a half of that to a third might make up the owners compensation in a small company. Pretty modest, and not much for the risk of "running" a business.
And I just want to reiterate all this talk, those numbers, are all hypothetical extensions we are talking about taken from those $10 and $20 per hour figures and are probably not his real numbers. But I just wanted to illustrate a point that you certainly shouldn't ever think that the Gross Profit all ends up straight in the owners pocket.
"BTW, I've had a contractor and a structural engineer with no interest in putting one over on me (one is an acquaintance and one is a cousin, neither would be available to be involved in my job) tell me to count on $225/sf for an absolutely basic builder style house, $250/sf if I want anything special at all." Hmmnn maybe CA isn't that bad after all. I often here about $300/sf to $400/sf for a lot of the projects we find ourselves on or around.
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Two very helpful replies guys."you certainly shouldn't ever think that the Gross Profit all ends up straight in the owners pocket."Clearly. I didn't mean to imply that. As for the overall sq ft prices, the $225-250 price was for a completely standard "builder" style home. My structural engineer relative said that $350-$400/sf was more typical of the houses that he saw, but that was mostly high-end stuff where you start to get into cantilevered decks, rooftop gardens with 300 psf loads etc.Tom
Edited 12/4/2004 1:03 am ET by tlambert
Tom, I'm in the SF Bay Area and am pretty close to that $225/sq ft level your contacts outlined to you, plus I did all the finish work (from cabs to setting the loos), the electrical, heaps of labor, and GC'd the thing. I say "close" as I think I'm right around $200/sq ft for the living part which is, I would say, is semi- to custom work; nothing too tricked out, but nice Craftsman-style trim and higher-end fixtures. This includes all my prelim design on an existing lot/sub division (and old one, from the 1930's), permiting fees, school impact fees, water hookup, etc.
I went with a group where the material and labor for the house (two story), attached garage and some decking (one run 20' in the air) was $107,000, $68,000 of that was labor.
I looked at another guy who wanted me to provide the materials, and coincidentally had a labor bid of exactly $68,000 too.
Since this is amateur hour, I have a question regarding garages: how are garages figured into bids? Obviously they aren't the same as the rest of the house, but is bidding done on the liveable space and then "fudged" to include the garage sqare footage? Or is a separate figure for the garage figured and then bundled with the liveable square footage?
Only one data point, but the guy I mentioned in the previous post figures garages at 40% of his base rate (that assumes a simple, unfinished, uninsulated garage of course).As per the current discussion, do you know how your framers came up with those numbers? (I assume the $107K is for framing alone).
Edited 12/6/2004 2:21 pm ET by tlambert
Tom, thanks for that; I didn't read every post, so missed the garage thing.
I'm not quite sure how they came up with the labor number, which again is kind of interesting as another bidder came up with the same labor total. But, if I take $25/sq ft as a base and apply your 40% thing above, this is what I come up with:
2250 (house square footage) X $25 = $56,250
500 (garage square footage) X $10 = $5000
That's $61,250 with $6750 labor to apply towards the amount of decking which was about 450 square feet, some 280 square feet 20' off the ground, all the rest of it elevated at least six feet off finish grade.
The breakdown of the bid went: 68000 (labor), 27000 (materials--I paid another $2200 for deck materials that was added on, but included the labor), 4340 (hardware), 5600 (profit and overhead) = $107,140
This group also did the foundation, which included a poured in garage slab that was framed as part of the garage (here, I don't think your 40% garage really applies as this was a lot [a lot] of framing underneath). This group also did the foundation, and I couldn't pick either the foundation or framing to do; I had to go with both or none.
Hope that helps. I may be doing another project and will probably use different subs; I stay in contact with the group above, but have just been hearing some "weird" things financially about them, and am a little leary of jumping in bed with them again. Plus, if they supposedly lost money on my job, I don't know how competitive they would be. The quality was decent, but man they moved at a snail's pace; I think their own labor ate into their bid. One of the principals of the company who did the foundation and subfloor portions seem to rock 'n roll much quicker.
I suppose it is cost of living. For the life of me I can't figure out why it cost so much more to live in California or New York. The cost of goods is only an idea in people's head afterall.
These houses we are presently framing are about 3500sf. with a garage. They are very complex in regards to framing and have a small lot. The selling price is $315,000. Our framing price on one of these was 6.00sf. That is almost unheard of around here.
It had 25ft ceilings and curved rafters and a 1412 pitch roof. A lot of labor intensive stuff.
We have a guy working with us who is from upstate New York. He says everything around is cheap. WE think it is expensive. Different perspectives.
I would love to come to California. Was born in San Francisco. I could make lots of money, live in a camper and then come home and take some time off. LOL
James Hart
NL,
Good discussion.
I suppose it is cost of living. For the life of me I can't figure out why it cost so much more to live in California or New York. The cost of goods is only an idea in people's head afterall.
About the cost of goods, including that framing you are doing.......just don't forget that last line. It's all about what you can make someone believe it's worth.
I'm in the same town as Jerrald. We were getting $5.00 psqft. for framing 20 yrs ago. Mostly splits, ranches and colonials, all with 8 or less steep roofs, no dormers, hips ok.
That included roofing applied, trim and windows and doors. That was good money, we would go through a 2500sft split in ten days with a four man crew all hand nailed.
I can't imagine what they are getting for some of the McBoxes that are going up or even more so so of the top shelf dwelling the likes perhaps of what Jerrald is working on. But then again, I see alot of unskilled labor hacking these things up so who knows.
You seem to be on a cusp of changing the way you do your business. Good for you and Good Luck!
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
I am in upstate NY, in a small town that has a lot of high-end second-home construction activity. The county we are in, however, is one of the poorest in the state.
Framers who do work for the builders doing biggies for the rich, are able to get between $9 and $15 psf, but they travel up to 60 miles from where they live to do this work, whereas they get $5.50 to $8.50 if they frame in their own backyard.
It pretty much correlates directly to wage rates. And those wage rates depend on whose payin', and how much they can afford.
I could make lots of money, live in a camper and then come home and take some time off. LOL
No doubt you could. I know a carpenter here who charges up to $45/hr and he turns work down regularly. Mostly lives out of his truck and a tent.
He's always saying that not only is construction expensive here, the finished product is, at least he says, much lower quality than what he was used to building in Vermont.
Edited 12/4/2004 10:18 pm ET by tlambert
I don't know anyone here who bids by sq ft but it works out to 11-14 bucks per
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Interesting, that got me thinking and just for the hell of it I just checked through the work we've done in the past few years and noticed we get $48.53 to $1223.96 per Square Foot for our stair projects. A range of 2670% from our least expensive project. An extreme example but it just goes to show how absurd SF estimating can be. SF estimating and SF estimates are for tavern and coffee shop talk, they're not real bidding.
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"I don't know anyone here who bids by sq ft but it works out to 11-14 bucks per"Thanks. Yeah, when people first started giving me sq ft quotes, I thought that at the least they meant sq ft of wall space, but no, it was by floor space. Actually, living space AFAIK. Obviously, these were not estimates/bids, but just numbers people were throwing around, but that's how they always quote it.One person does up cost sheets, though, and charges on "equivalent square footage". So let's say his experience has told him that porches are 40% as much work as walls and let's say you have 2000sf of living space- 200 sf porch x .40 = +80 sf
- 4 dormers at 30sf/dormer = +120 sf
- steep roof at .15 x 2000 = +300 sfYour 2000 sf house = 2500 sf x his rate per sq ft.That seems like your starting to get to a real estimate of the sort Jerrald is talking about, just that it's accounted in square feet, not dollars.Cheers,Tom
Good Morning!
If they do not bid by the sf. then how do they bid up there?
I'm very interested in knowing.
James Hart
Figure how long it might take.Steep roofs more
two storeys more
dormers more
step downs for terrain more
add for addition tie ins
what time of year is it
how fast does this customer pay
how far down over the bank does the material have to go
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They were getting 2.50 in Florida back in the seventies. This is a whole new century since then
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I am going to repost something I wrote back in the Framing Economics 101 discussion back in June 2003 since it is certainly apropos here again now.
Usually when I see these discussions regarding Framing Pricing by the Square Foot I tag them setting the Rate My Interest option to High but I generally stay out of them. We specialize in Architectural Woodwork and don't really do much framing at all beyond some of the stuff we need to do for our stair building efforts and I personally haven't framed in years. However I think the pricing methodology that it seems 90% of the framers use is nuts. You just can't possibly produce accurate estimates based on the square foot footprint of a project.
In another discussion here back in February regarding interior trim bid I made a post saying the key to estimating trim is producing an accurate project takeoff and I believe that is also true for framing and since I began working with a few framing subs this spring on honing their estimating efforts I think that is especially important for them since their market is so competitive, fungible, and commodity like. In other words with their narrower margins I think understanding the costs associated with particular activities and accurately predicting them is even more important to running and profitable and survivable business.
I wrote a short paper called The Hidden Danger of Square Foot Estimating a while back and while the example I used to show why SF estimating can be so dangerous was just a simple deck the logic and relationships hold true for larger and more complex projects. While framing a house is not that complex* in terms of the number of activities it is more complex than the simple deck example I used and as complexity (the number of differing activities) rises the potential for error increases too.
If I was a Framing Contractor (and I am considering get back into it business wise although not hands-on) I would estimate my projects using Systems (or Assemblies) Estimating or Unit Price Estimating. It's very easy to be 15% to 20% off on what you really should be charging based on SF estimating and that's way to big a business risk to be taking in my estimation.
Another thing that sticks out when I hear Square Foot prices for framing being quoted it usually $5 per square foot or $6 per square foot and to the best of my recollection I never or rarely hear prices like $5.75 per square foot or $6.35 per square foot. When I hear that that tells me that the numbers are arbitrary and not really based on any real computations and that's a clear signal that they are negotiable! I can think of a few builders that I know that pick up on that like they're sharks and will talk you down from a $6 per square foot to $5.75 getting you to "sharpen your pencil on this job". It's much harder if not impossible to argue down a detailed assembly or unit price list. From a pure negotiation point of view giving quotations based on Square Foot estimates is just real bad strategy.
And even if Systems Estimating or Unit Price Estimating loses you some jobs to other framers who use Square Foot Estimating aren't you better off that way rather than doing work that losing or costing you money out of your own pocket?
One of the arguments I often here from contractors regarding my contention that SF estimating is dangerously inaccurate is that "all the framing contractors around here estimate their projects by the SF" and while that may very well be true that doesn't mean it correct or good business. In my own experience I think I can say anecdotally that maybe 90% or more of the framing contractors I know price their projects by the SF but along with that I can also say that 90% or more of the framing contractors I know are also complaining very loudly how difficult it is to make a decent living in the construction business. The few framing contractors I know who are happy and very successful are using Systems or Unit Price Estimating techniques.
This dangerous hang up that so many contractors have of wanting to produce estimates based on the SF footprint of a project is not exclusive to just framing contractors however. I hear the same thing come up regarding finish work and cabinetry (check out the trim carpenter's wage discussion to see what I mean) and even at times plumbing and electrical too but it really does seem to me to be most prevalent and pervasive among framing contractors. I have a hunch that is because most carpenters who are getting set to go off in to business for themselves go off as framing contractors and they are looking for shortcuts or the quick and easy way to estimate and price projects. That's my hunch because that's the scenario I followed when I first went out on my own.
Estimating Framing by the SF footprint of a project? Don't do it.
Develop a Systems or Unit Cost estimating system and use it instead.
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And here's another example of what the problem is regarding SF Estimating. I first posted this diagram as part of the trim carpenter's wage discussion but it's still relevant to a discussion regarding estimating framing.
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In the sketch above both projects have identical 1000 SF footprints but which one will cost more to frame? Obviously Project B. There are more interior walls. That more materials and more labor.
Lets say Project A is a Gabled Roof while Project B is a Hip Roof. Still they are both 1000 SF so can you still use the same SF Framing Price for framing for both of them? Nah ya can't. Hips take more time and therefore cost more. Which brings up even more issues. What about the number and sizes of dormers? What about the number of and sizes of opening for windows and doors. They will affect both material and labor time costs so how can they be accounted for a single all inclusive SF Estimate formula?
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In remodeling and room additions,I "stick build" my material estimates,on the room addition I just built the contractors for Plumbing and air had to pull their blocking materials out of the tear-out pile,(52 year old scraps) there may have been 8 linear feet of any given lumber there...
I then figure how many days the job takes,and charge a daily crew charge...I then bring subs to bid on mechanical work,and then I have my bid...
Scribe once, cut once!
mapache - "In remodeling and room additions,I "stick build" my material estimates"
Well we don't "stick build" our material estimates until after we sign a contract or are otherwise 100% sure we have the project in our hand. Stick built estimates are for sure the pinacle of accuracy but with the time and attention they take we feel the benefit of that precision (± 1%) isn't worth it unless we know we have the job.
I guess though if we cound develop ""stick built" estimates
as quickly as we could Systems or Unit Cost estimates then we would but I haven't found the technology that enables that just yet.
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Jerrald is right...systematic pricing is key to developing good estimates.
Unfortunatly, he's also right...90% of the contractors don't systemize...they give they're labor away.
I personally have used every estimating technique known to man. I"ve spent hours, days and sometimes only seconds to give prices. I've had varying results with every technique.
The only way you can develop a good idea of costs is to build the exact same model, in the exact same conditions, over and over and over... and that isn't the way our business works.
I usually can offer a firm price on most residential stuff in two minutes or less. Why? Because I've already built it and I know how much it costs...and I know how much the builders are paying, based on competition. I know my market.
SF pricing? I'll give you sf pricing if you'll give me a square house. No ones ever had me bid one of those yet.
The builders that like to use sf pricing usually have large cubic feet production houses. I'm quick to point out to them that their extra large two story foyers and two story great rooms add a lot of cubic volume and not much sqfootage. I usually don't do those jobs because I'm not going to let them dictate a sf price that is 50-60% of what it should be.
EVERY time we give a price, we ALWAYS are told that it's overbudget. We ALWAYS get paid more than the OTHER crews...simply because we ask for it and we don't budge...if they won't pay...we walk.
I once bid a rather large residential custom at 225K for the rough labor and nails and crane time. I spent 15 minutes on the bid. The builder requested a rebid with them supplying the cranes and setting the steel. I think I dropped 15k off the price....I spent more time figuring that price than I did the overall price.
I didn't get the job...no one did...the buyer never bought it.
Moral of this thread.....figure your price...then double it. The builders will tell you how much they budgeted!
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Blue, that's an interesting post. But didn't you say in another thread that you aren't making any money?
I'm not making enough money Cairo, to call carpentry contracting a business. It's just a glorified job that doesn't pay well, and not many ways to improve it.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Well that's nice for you, I do just fine my way,........................Scribe once, cut once!
I think the best compromise between systems is the assemblies linear or sq ft., adjusted to your own historic cost basis,and your own overhead costs, which differ widely from one contractor/business to the next one assembly I usually need to be wary of is a hip roof,since a smaller one is all hip and the larger one almost academic...Scribe once, cut once!
jerrald.. remeber about 3 - 4 years ago..
i think Remodeler or Remodeling had an on-line forum
Sonny used to post there a lot..
there was a guy there who had a "systems pricing"..
he would sit down with the Homeowner, go thru his book, pricing each item (system) with their assistance..
develop the price, print out the Proposal.. thye'd all sign .. he'd get the check
one meeting .. about 1 - 2 hours.. major remodeling jobs.. like additions or whole kitchens ..
seemed to be the ideal method.. evrything (material, subs, labor, burden, overhead , profit.. ) everything was in the system numbers Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike-
The "systems pricing" you mentioned can happen, and the process can be just as you described.
When I ran the construction dept for Sylvan Pools in Las Vegas, our salesmen had a pricebook like you described. It had the "base price" for a standard pool, and unit pricing for each added feature the customer could want. While most of the sales guys met the client, went back to the office to sketch some designs and price them, and then made a second appointment, several of them did the one-meeting close. They'd go in, measure the yard, layout a pool based on what the customer requested, and blow out the pricing in around 15 minutes.
I was the lucky one who got to put together that price book every 6 months or so when we revised it. Luckily, we had unit pricing from most of our subs, based on the same items listed in the price book, so we just had to take those numbers, add our markup, and create a price for the book. Some of the items took more work (computing labor hours, materials, etc), but it was pretty straightforward).
Sylvan does several thousand pools a year that way, so it's obviously a viable system. The biggest concern with general remodeling would be the large variety of conditions that could be encountered, and getting pricing on them all. It'd be easier if you did just bathrooms, or roofing, or something without so much variety.
Bob
I've thought about a combination system. Price the basic remodeling job in a more traditional way, keep it simple to get the final price as low as possible to help the sale (not bait-and-switch, just without all the goodies.) Then have a price book, with built-in markups somewhat higher than normal, for the sizzle items and for change orders.
I would think it would help close a sale if you could add in a few must-have items on the spot. It would also make the change order process smoother.
Mike Smith -"jerrald.. remeber about 3 - 4 years ago..i think Remodeler or Remodeling had an on-line forum "
You're talking about the "old" Remodeling Magazine online forums which were incredibly active once upon a time not like the ones they have there now.
" ...there was a guy there who had a "systems pricing".. he would sit down with the Homeowner, go thru his book, pricing each item (system) with their assistance..
develop the price, print out the Proposal.. thye'd all sign .. he'd get the check
one meeting .. about 1 - 2 hours.. major remodeling jobs.. like additions or whole kitchens ..
seemed to be the ideal method.. evrything (material, subs, labor, burden, overhead , profit.. ) everything was in the system numbers"
And you're talking about Rick Ritivoy of Mr. Fix-It Building Co. and what he had was a "Sales System" that was based on Systems/Assembly estimating techniques.
While I think the selling the job on the first meeting is a kool thing and the way to go for a lot of projects it's really not the best method for all types of projects. Especially one where design and/or engineering considerations are important. A few years ago I sold a few deck jobs that way where I met with the client and looking over a set of plans their architect had given them I looked up the Unit Costs on my laptop and submitted a proposals on the spot. And those were Unit Cost estimates not Systems Costs although I probably could a have done it either way, I just choose to me more precise using the Unit Cost method since the decks we were looking at probably could be broken down into around just 15-30 different unit costs.
For projects were designing or need to be designed (by a third party) I think there needs to be time for thought and reflection on just what to do. I know Rick's emphasis was really on just getting and doing the job and I am sure winning rave reviews for great design and architecture we not important to him and his company but he certainly did know how to sell like a madman to his market which was/is working class families in the Detroit area.
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