Replies

1. 
   BobKovacs | Oct 12, 2004 01:30am | #1

   "Anybody in the BIG cities of the good old USA have any answers for me."

   Yes- leave the "pre-set pricing", "I don't care what it looks like- just get it done fast", tract shack framing to the illegals who do it for a living and are happy working for $5/hour.

   You mentioned that you get "year round work".  What's the point of working "year-round", if you have to do it just to make ends meet?  Isn't it better to work 20 hours at $40/hour than 40 hours at $20/hour??  Same output for less input. 

   The custom framing gig is the way to go, assuming that there's work out in Manitoba for custom framers.

   Bob

2. 
   bruceb | Oct 12, 2004 02:16am | #2

   Panger,

                 Run Like hell. You'll never make an progress framing for a guy like that. We have a bunch of them where I am. A few years ago when I was looking to stay busy I talked to one about framing a house for him. The foundation had been sitting for two months. I told him $3.50 a foot ( I though it was low but needed something to keep a few guys busy.) He looked me dead in the face and told me " Hey, I only pay $2.50 a foot. But, I pay every two weeks" . To which I replied, " Home Depot pays every two weeks. Thanks but no."

           Yuou'll go insane trying to make your output fit into what a builder tells you he'll pay. I know, it drove me to the brink of Bankrutcy once. Didn't go over the edge but damn it was close.

1. 
   panger | Oct 12, 2004 03:01am | #3

   Thanks for your replies. I guess I'm wondering if all tract home builders are the same. It seems to me that I'm just an employee instead of self-employed but have all the risks of losing money. How can anybody make money framing with this setup. Is there anybody out there? The custom framing option seems like a good one except I'm wondering where do I start.

1. 
   Isamemon | Oct 12, 2004 03:35am | #4

   Its hard

   ive been a grunt for years, never had to make a money making decision, just pound nails, pull a pay check and drink beer, and learn to say ..........yes dear

   relied on my big bro, still do, framed for him for years, but we butted heads, of course were bros, so went adn worked for someone else for a few years

   now on my own, wow, can pay all the bills, pay my guys good, but my bro helps me a lot ( not dumb, learned never burn bridges) with advice, but does not give me work , and I dont ask

   but if tract homes is where your at, man cut-throat city, for the "young" and/or strong backed

   some people are cut out for it. One friend is the king of the area as a framer, he and his crew can blow many away, he is 47 and going strong

   some are not

   so how do you cut into the market as a good framer

   its hard especially ifyou want to relocate like I did

   go to the city you want to be in

   hire on as a framer

   start making connections, feel things out

   then go out on your own wiht a nest egg

   your an employee but take the risks

   wrong, your a sub if you take the hit when it goes wrong

   going on your own

    whatever you do

   dont bad mouth your previous or current emplyer even if they are a jerk

   dont solicit their main sources of income by walking up to their gc saying , hey I can do this for $x

   get your name out there, low key, ( and no twhile your employed by the  future x) and have them come to you , it will take a while , thats why you need the nest egg. send out flyers, call a few friends, collect on a few chips,  bid a few low but dont give it away, but dont burn bridges or piss off a good ol boy thats part of the group you wnat to be in. dont go to your bosses boss and say....."hey......" ( well unless yur boss is an a-hole and everyone knows it)

   If your not trying to be a producton framer and just want an all around gc, and you haven tbeen before, well

   nest egg better be bigger

3. 
   blue_eyed_devil | Oct 12, 2004 04:26am | #5

   Panger, I've done some production framing, a lot of semi production framing, and a lot custom production framing.

   Those numbers ar tight, but workable, depending on the complexity of the houses.

   If it is a true two story, 1800, then you might have a chance.

   Tell a little more info. How many floors? Corners? Pitch and style roof. Siding? height of floors etc.

   Tell me how many hours you are doing them in.

   I know we can stand up an 1800 in 200 hours maybe less depending on a lot of factors.

   It's all about systems.

   blue

   If you want to read a fancy personal signature...  go read someone else's post.
1. 
   G80104 | Oct 12, 2004 05:23am | #6

   blue,

          You say 1800 sq.ft in 200 hrs, is that total man hrs ? Frame & back-out ?  Trusses & Tjis or rafters & 2x floor joists.What does that include?

     Just want to know how my guys our doing in comparision to others.

1. 
   dieselpig | Oct 12, 2004 06:08am | #7

   Personally,  I don't know how anyone can tell this guy from here whether or not he can stay above water at those numbers.  We don't know his WC rate, his liability rate, or anything about the rest of his overhead.  Regardless of overhead, there's 1800 sq ft and then there's 1800 SQ FT.  What I mean is this:

   What's the exterior trim package look like?

   2X4 or 2X6 wall framing?

   dimensional lumber or I joists?

   stick frame roof or trusses?

   wall heights?

   roof pitch?

   slab on grade or basement with 1st floor  floor system?

   How much hardware we talking about having to install?

   Any dormers? 

    How many corners?

   What do the site conditions look like?  Any walk out basements with knee walls?

   How many exterior penetrations to install?

   Power onsite? 

   There's just way too many variables.  How you can you run your own business when someone else is telling you what you can make?  IMHO, tracts are a losing battle.  Again, just my opinion.  If you care, even a little bit, about the quality of your work, you have no place is 99% of the tract projects around these days.  Sooner or later it catches up with you.  I'll say it a third time.... just my opinion.

   I get at least a call every two weeks from someone I have yet to do business with but has caught my name somewhere.  First question they always ask is, "what's your sq ft price?".  I don't have one.  I tell them I start around $8 and add on from there.  Some freak out and think I'm crazy.  I've been every bit as busy as I want to be lately.  I'm sure things will slow down some with the upcoming winter,  but I'd rather work for good money 10 months of the year than pull my hair out making peanuts for 12 a year.

   My opinion is that sq ft pricing just doesn't work.  I just finished framing a 2100 sq foot house that came out close to $12 a foot.  Tomorrow I'm starting a free standing four car garage that I'm doing for $7.  I made good money on the house and I'll do the same on the garage.  Both builders will recieve the same level of quality and same dollar value.  It's the building themselves that differ.... to me that means the rates should vary as well.

   All that crap being said, depending on the house... me and the fellas could do well  or we could get killed.  Can't tell from here.  I do know this, my guess is that I could barely frame dog houses at $3.50 sq ft.  At least not here in MA.

   My advice to panger?  Do what you gotta do to pay the bills while you're making connections.  Find the good GC's in your area... not the developers.  There's a big difference.   If you can deal with the headaches, remodeling/addition framing has a nice profit margin but you've got to have good problem solving skills.  I also clean up on three-season porches and high end decks.  It's all stuff you can do while still being a framing sub and catering to the builders.  While you're plugging away on the sites during the day, get your license at night.  Then you can start GCing some of your own smaller projects in the residential market and work your way out of those tracts.

1. 
   bruceb | Oct 12, 2004 06:19am | #8

   Pretty good Point Diesel.

              It is hard to tell if he can make money or not from here. But his post kinnda tells a story thats pretty popular around here.

             " Well NO, I don't pay THAT Much. BUt look at it this way. I'll keep you busy year round and I pay every two weeks."

              Wish I had a dollar for every time I heard that. And, it always seems like the guys that get started in that rut, Never manage to get out.  I would frame every day until I was too old to work but around here the illegals have driven the prices so low it just doesn't pay.

           Like you said, You could barely frame a doghouse for $3.50 a Sqft. Around here you would struggle to get that from most builders. Not sure what your WC is but it's probably 16% around here. Laborer might be $11 an hour. Carpenter around $15, lead around $18.

          Anyone know about the WC and tax burden in Canada?

1. 
   dieselpig | Oct 12, 2004 06:32am | #9

          Like you said, You could barely frame a doghouse for $3.50 a Sqft. Around here you would struggle to get that from most builders.

   Ouch.  For curiosity's sake, where's "here"?

2. 
   bruceb | Oct 12, 2004 06:41am | #10

    Pennsylvania,

                           It varies greatly but most of the framers I know are getting around $3.25. 

                           It was on the way up but then all the vans full of illegals started crossing over from NJ.

3. 
   panger | Oct 12, 2004 02:38pm | #11

   Excellent. This was exactly the kind of feedback that I was after. It probably is possible to make some money after a crew has built the same house time after time. We have 5 different houses to build with small variations from there. Most houses are one storey with a two car garage. Garage thrown in for free as far as I could see. Nothing in the price to acknowledge the garage. Compensation rates in Manitoba for framing [ 5% - 6% ]. I know green with envy.

   I pretty much agree with everyone and needed to hear it from somebody else. I'll build up my contacts and try the custom framing route. Thanks to all.

4. 
   bruceb | Oct 13, 2004 01:28am | #13

   5-6%, wow!

       What kind of extras?

2. 
   blue_eyed_devil | Oct 13, 2004 02:00am | #15

   G8, our latest tract home project was here: http://tadianhomes.com/plans.aspx?CommunityId=30 (I hope that link works). I don't know which models we did.

   I don't know the hours....all I know is that we hit our target of  $58.50 per man hour.

   If your costs are higher than ours, then you would need to average more than $58.50.

   I've averaged more than $100 on some semi customs, but it is getting harder to find the right product. But.....I'm always looking!

   blueIf you want to read a fancy personal signature...  go read someone else's post.

1. 
   Isamemon | Oct 17, 2004 11:05pm | #20

   wow

   Im a chump compared to some of you, must be compared to making almost 60 an hour, wow, flushers or sparkies rates (plumbers, electricians)

   there is no way I can be out there in my area making 58.50 a man hour

   wow , if I could I would not be worring about transmission noise in my truck

   or trying to figure out how to pay for my other childs wedding.

   let me see, pay agood guy 18 an hour costs me 24, after taxes workers comp etc,  add generous bennies, lets dream, big big dream, say another 10 an hour, thats now 34 an hou. Im making 58 a man hour, 3 guys out there

   lets see 58-34=24, times 3=72 an hour. Pretend we only work 45 weeks a year=129,600 a year and I haven t even picked up my nail belt

   ill guess Ill work , less bidding paper work etc, say 20 hours a week at 20 an hour take home. thats another 18k. shoot thats almost 150k a year at 20 hrs a week

   not bad for an old nail pounder

   man I am doing something wrong if production framers or a productn lead with good high paid people make this, just imagine what I could make with what some of you say  " a van full of illeagles" wow

   man if I could build the quality I see in tract homes and make that kind of money

   man I am screwing up someplace or got one heck of a lot to learn

1. 
   xMikeSmith | Oct 18, 2004 12:15am | #21

   isa.. how long you been at it ?Mike Smith   Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

2. 
   Isamemon | Oct 18, 2004 12:20am | #22

   up untill a few minutes ago,  I thought long enough, but obviosily not

3. 
   Isamemon | Oct 18, 2004 12:21am | #23

   but , I admit , never as a production framer

   well never, dont ever say never

   I production framed for a few houses and lost my asp

   and I always have something to learn

   hey, and Mike your an old timer here , Im just chump change, Ive gots lots to learn

   so thanks for your reply

   Edited 10/17/2004 5:29 pm ET by Isamemon

4. 
   xMikeSmith | Oct 18, 2004 12:29am | #24

   i'm not a production framer.. but the same thing holds true for all phases of the trades..

    your stated "rate" and your realized "rate" are not always the same

   if we have to work by the hour ( which we try to avoid).. i get $45 /hr/man

   which is based on ...$18  -   $20 per hour..

    with a labor burden of 1.62

   and a markup of 1.5... will give you between $43  -  $48

   if all you do is bid work.. you never have to tell anyone what your rate is.. just givbe them a price for the job

   Mike Smith   Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

5. 
   blue_eyed_devil | Oct 18, 2004 12:41am | #25

   Iseamemom, don't depair.

   I'm actually not happy with the 58.50. We attempted to grow and discovered that we couldn't even average $35 hiring the most talented people available. I spent a very considerable amount of time hiring this past spring....at a time when there were a lot of skilled guys available.

   This "business" is not an easy business.

   Personally, I have dedicated my life to learning about residential house framing. In my every moment, I obsessively analyze time issues. I have tried many different techniques, weeding out the slow. I have walked thousands of other roughs, searching for the tiniest clue to a better idea. I have checked my ego and let rookies show me something.

   The first step toward achieving the results that I have done is to set your goals high enough. In that Tadian site, our best crew started a house next to me....both on the same day. I started with only one guy....a fat old carpenter that thought he had what it takes (he didn't....we downsized him). I fully intended to not only keep up, but finish before them depite the 2-1 manpower advantage. I thrive in situations like that. Unfortuatly, Frank dumped a bunch of guys onto my job. You should have seen how depressed I got when I showed up and saw my job crawling with .....dare I say....average strivers!

   ya gotta want it.....really really want it.

   Framing is a giant oversized art form. You can waltz through it, or you can blitz through it. In the end....you get out what you put in.

   At my advanced age, I can see how people fall victim to "just getting it done"....no pressure. I'm lacking the energy to attack individual tasks, but I don't lack the wisdom. I'm still willing to go heads up against anyone, anywhere doing the same framing task, apples to apples. In a sprint, they younguns are going to whup me....but framing a house isn't a sprint...it's a marathon. My advantage is that I know what tasks are critical, and the order that they need to be done in. Make a simple miscalculation about order and you will add 50% to many tasks. A house frame is a series of thousands of tasks. Add a few seconds to each task and pretty soon you'll be eating my dust.

   Getting it done right the first time is a huge key.

   blueIf you want to read a fancy personal signature...  go read someone else's post.

3. 
   blue_eyed_devil | Oct 14, 2004 08:25pm | #16

   http://tadianhomes.com/plans.aspx?CommunityId=30

   I asked my partner about which model we were doing G8. It was the 2100 sf model. We got them done in 200hrs. We actually had three different crews try them. Only one crew hit the numbers that we wanted. One crew went 50% over.  We "downsized" them.

   The crew that hit the numbers was actually the least experienced crew. It was composed of Ben (with me about 6/7 years), an experienced framer Jim (poor personal life choices), Brad (an engineer that never landed his eng job, but isnt committed to carpentry) and Steve, a rookie. The number one reason that these guys hit the number, is because Ben has been with me since his carpentry birthday and he doesn't know any stupid techniques for getting things done. The other guys have to follow his lead...and it works.  I have every reason to believe that if I went in with Ben, Frank, Stve and I, we'd get that house done in 150 hours.

   The crew that went 300 hours suffers from "I already know what I'm doing and I quit thinking about it a long time ago" syndrome. They see a better idea, but stick to their own stupid tired method.

   It's all about saving seconds....

   blueIf you want to read a fancy personal signature...  go read someone else's post.

1. 
   panger | Oct 17, 2004 04:28pm | #17

   I work away from home, so I just got back. Do you have to install the bathtubs and showers [one piece units]?  Do you have to install the windows and doors?  Do you have to do all the stucco details? Also, once we have the rafters up, we have a lot of stick framing to complete and a lot of backing to complete to square off the walls for vaulted ceilings. Its these extras that I'm talking about that seem to be taking the profit out of my pocket. This being said, I know that I can learn to frame quicker whether it be tract homes or custom homes and still provide quality work. Tips would be appreciated.

1. 
   blue_eyed_devil | Oct 17, 2004 08:00pm | #18

   Panger, I don't mind stretching out these conversations for as long as it takes... I know about working away from home...

   Our typical roughs here in michigan reequires us to "dry it in" except for one detail....we don't put anything on the roof sheathing...the paper is done by roofing contractors...usually two days after we finish roughing (they give the painters one day to spray).

   We install the windows and doors. All tract homes are trussed, with small areas that require stick framing. If there is detail work below, it is done after the trusses are set, but the trusses are built to facilitate pan ceilings etc, as much as possible. For the most part, there isn't much custom ceiling work done in the tract subs that I've been involved with. I have walked through tract developments where there is a substantial amount of this type work....tall ceilings....complicated floor plans...custom features...etc. I laugh becaue these developers want production pricing on custom frames...I don't bother with them...it's not realistic.

   We don't set the tubs, the plumbers do. We don't have any siding/stucco to do...they are either vinyl or brick. We do usually have to install wood corner trim and some basic louver trim, but that is not usually a large factor.

   The interior feature work that you are doing can consume quite a bit of time. There are substantial ways to reduce it, but I couldn't begin to address those issues without a case by case study. One general thing that you should do, is to throw out all your preconcieved notions about how you attack these tasks. Start thinking in terms of how you can save time on every single piece you install. Study whether you actuall need each piece. You would be surprised at how much useless stuff is nailed up.

   For instance, lets talk about installing fireblocks (technically this is called draftstopping) in a 32' wall that is 12' tall. The studs are 16" oc. The conventional thinking would be to cut  20 pieces of blocking...14 1/2" long. Each piece would be measured and installed....often along a line that is snapped.  How would an unconventional guy like me install it?

   There's several ways to speed up the process, and many to slow it down. Here's several suggestions....not all of them are appropriate for every situation.

   1) instead of measuring and cutting, just gather all those 12" cutoffs that occurred when you trimmed the 10' garage studs. YOu use two pieces for each bay. You slide them apart nailing to each stud and place a few nails  to hold the middle together. I'm willing to bet that I could shave 25 to 50% over the conventional method.

   2)instead of placing the blocking at the 8' level (99% of carpenters will place it at the 8' level) , place it at eye level or lower. Remember, the blocking is actually a draft stop. It stops the drafting at any level. This method would save anywhere from 25  to 75%.

   3) install the blocking while the wall is being sheathed. On the last house  that I installed some, I framed the wall, squared it, and sheathed the lower 4' with osb (I almost always install wall sheathing horizontally). I then picked up my 14 1/2" blocks, which were cut off the studs and installed them, only stapling them to the osb. I didn't try to fasten them to the framing. I left that task till after the wall was standing.

   This type of alternative thinking can produce substantial times savings without reducing quality. Impearative in this type of thinking is a thorough knowledge of how each part of the residential frame needed. You will not make progress by guessing, or not fully understanding each parts definition and purpose.

   Heres a pic of that blocking job...sorry about the large size....I don't have time to install iraqware....the Lions are about to put a whupping on Green Bay.

   2266 is the wall I framed. 2269 is a "journeyman's" wall. Which wall do you think the blocking was installed faster on?

   blueIf you want to read a fancy personal signature...  go read someone else's post.

2. 
   jonblakemore | Oct 17, 2004 08:22pm | #19

   Resized. 

   Jon Blakemore

2. 
   panger | Oct 12, 2004 02:43pm | #12

   Wow. If I could stand up 1800 Sq. ft in 200 manhours I would probably stay here. I'm taking about 400 manhours. I can stand the walls and roof in a short period, its all the extra small items that take so long.

1. 
   blue_eyed_devil | Oct 13, 2004 01:46am | #14

   Panger, I used to team up with a great carpenter named Forest. Forest and I used to put up customs in 300-320 hours. One time, there was a "union" crew across the street. They had 10 guys. We were doing the same house, basically the same elevation. They had a daylight basement (daylight means that they had to frame a 4' high foundation wall about 25 'long.)

   We started one day before them. It was a close race. They beat us by one day.

   I'd be peaved, but I found out later that they had a substantial amount of service work to come back and do. We were asked to do that service (they wouldn't come back to finish it) but we refused.

   My point is that most crews have way, way, too many guys. Currently we have a total of five including me for about 5-6 hours per day and we've decided to slim down.

   The next important thing is systems.

   One of the other most important things is double handling the material. That alone can add 33% (wild estimate).

   Another very important consideration is crew average, both in terms of pay and skill. You don't need three guys with 25 years experience to frame tract homes.

   Guess what my old ex partner is doing now....Yep....tract homes. In fact, that's why we split...he wanted to stay in the tract homes, I didn't like some of the things that they wanted us to do. Forest is very happy doing the same thing over, and over and over and over.. He keeps his payroll low and is doing quite well. And don't even think that he is cutting corners or schlepping anything together. There isn't a carpenter in here that could frame a better house than Forest...not even me.

   blueIf you want to read a fancy personal signature...  go read someone else's post.