When framing 16″ OC, what percent of studs should actually be 16″ OC (not counting the trimmer studs for doors and windows)?
Or to put it another way, when a room is framed 16″ OC, how many 48″x96″ panels should have to be ripped because the framing is not 16″ OC?
Thanks
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Replies
HUH ?????????
Just the last one, which is caused by the wall not being exactly a multiple of 16" long.
When you stand up the sheathing or sheetrock, starting at the correct end of the wall (the one where the layout started), the only cuts you should make are openings for windows and doors, and the last sheet get cut to width.
Sounds like you got a problem.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
Ron:
When you lay out a wall, first you lay out the door and window openings, then you start at one end and put a stud every 16 inches. As Ed said, the only place a you will have to cut off a sheet of plywood is on the last stud.
You get out of life what you put into it......minus taxes.
Marv
None, other than at corners and window opennings.
You, or someone else do this Boo-Boo?
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Are you having to rip the first sheet? The layout should be 15.25", 31.25", 47.25" etc. If you set your first stud at 16" either your panel will cover half of the first stud or you will have to rip the ply down to 32.75".
Jon Blakemore
What I am hearing is what I thought - that the framing should have actually been 16" OC. Now, however, the icynene has been sprayed, and all of the stud spaces are filled.
In 140 feet of wall in two rooms, only 38 of the stud spaces are actually 16" OC, and I estimate that I will have to rip most of the panels to make them fit.
I spec'd the job for 16" OC, but the contractor says that this was good framing, and I shouldn't expect any better.
Does anyone have any tricks to fix this problem.
Thanks,
Ron
Are you saying the the measurement BETWEEN studs is only sometimes 16"? Are you hoping to rip insulation sheets into thirds to use as extra insulation?
Jon Blakemore
>>Does anyone have any tricks to fix this problem.
Yeah, use a few dirty words then get over it. It sounds like its too late to correct. If a few are off by a couple of inches it wont make a diff in the end. If they are all off the drywaller and the trimmer will be using dirty words for sure.
I agree with everyone else who said you should only have to cut the last sheet and around windows and doors. Other than that, basically, 100% of the studs should be 16" o.c.. The contractor who says this is good framing is full of it. Ask him if he'd accept that in his own house? I've been on remodeling jobs where we add studs to make our drywall land half on a stud, but if the cavities are filled with foam insulation, obviously you can't do that. Sounds like the contractor used an inexperienced crew. If he can't get something so basic right, makes me wonder about the quality of the rest of his work.
Yeah, Ron, we'd love tyop see a picture to pic apart for the fun of it. The framer is full of bs in addition to being a lousey carpenter who cannot find work subbing on regular jobs.
But since it is more important to move forward, all you need to do is run the SR horizontal and joint together with a 50" scrap of 1x4 or strapping wherever they happen to lie. couple minutes to hog out a little foam is all the delay you will have.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Normally, only the last sheet will need a cut... Your stuck with this mess. Next time tell the Framer to use a measuring tape, it will help.
only 38 of the stud spaces are actually 16" OC
I'm guessing that you mean the studs are 16" O.C. until an opening, and then start back up on 16" O.C. after the opening again until the next?
Ugh, I've seen it done that way, and no good comes of it.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
> Does anyone have any tricks to fix this problem.
In the days before plywood and drywall, accurate stud spacing really wasn't necessary, so this happens all the time in remodeling. My own preference is to scab on one by nailers as needed, rather than ripping the sheet goods. It might be worth some time measuring and figuring to find the layout that keeps the number of nailers to a minimum. Sometimes you get lucky and they're sorta right once every four feet, if you pick the right stud to start with.
-- J.S.
Mooney wall.
are they maybe 19.2''?
just checkin, them diamonds fool some..LOL
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
100%. But plumbing can move one or two.
Or to put it another way, none of them, but you will have to cut the ones in the corners.
SamT
They shouldn't vary more than about 1/4" from the 16" spacing, though occasionally (depending on wood quality) a stud will be warped worse than that.
You can scab on nailers, if the sheet will fall just off the edge of the stud. If you're using DW screws you can probably get away with 2x2 "nailers".
Keep in mind that you can install drywall sideways (in fact many argue this is the best way) so that you have fewer studs to worry about (though be sure to pencil stud location onto the rough flooring/edge of drywall/whatever before installing, so you'll know where to fasten). And then you can make the end joints off-stud (this is also preferred by some) by using a piece of plywood backer. (I'll leave it to others to describe the gory details of this.)
If you don't want to run DW sideways (or you're using a different sheet good), you can install 3/8" OSB sideways (with plywood backers at the off-stud joints) and then nail/glue/screw your surface material to that. If you use 3/8" drywall you only end up 1/4" thicker than intended, which isn't enough to throw off outlet depth (but will cause some problems at door/window openings).
Hey, excellent point about installing the DW sideways. Yeah, less ends to have to make fall on studs. Good idea!
BUT, the cab. installer will wanna KILL some framer.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
Remember the thread about a month ago where a whole raft of people suggested blocking for this and that, and then some wisenheimer said to just cover the whole wall with 3/4" plywood before sheetrocking? This is the project he was thinking of.
yep, it is an option.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
yep, it is an option
Naw, confuse every body, use 1/2" ply & 1/4" DW . . . <g>Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
> some wisenheimer said to just cover the whole wall with 3/4" plywood ....
I had to buy some over the weekend, almost $30 each.
-- J.S.
good use for OSB huh?
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
Yup, given the price difference.
-- J.S.
I rarely if ever see pro rockers run the sheets vertically. They run across the studs and ceiling joists, and the tapered edges do not need blocking.
I always thought it made more sense to go horizontally--less taping and you can use longer sheets (though the guy I now work with doesn't like them because they're harder to handle and in small rooms it can be difficult to maneuver long sheets of drywall).
Around here it virtually unheard of to install vertically. 12 foot boards go up faster and tape quicker.
I think most guys lay out exterior walls with the exterior sheathing in mind, since they're carpenters and not rockers and they're putting on the sheathing. When I was young I framed up a house with a guy who pulled the 16" layout all the way around the building. When we started sheathing, the offcut at the end of wall #1 became the starter piece for wall #2, and on around until we were back where we started from.
Anyway, you need to take your contractor out behind the honey bucket for some bare-knuckle boxing. What a clod!
It's really nice to have the studs nice and regular when you're nailing on siding through sheathing. If the layout was right, and you start a siding piece flush with one end (hopefully the correct one), the other end of a Nx4-foot siding piece will fall dead on the center of stud.
The bozo who built our house screwed up a lot of things, but he got that right, and it made a world of difference when we were residing. We were able to pre-drill the holes in the siding and have them dead on almost all the time. (Maybe twice we found a stud off slightly, and then there was one place where he decided to change pitch around a bathroom.)
I assume you have picked one end of the wall as the point where you start your layout. The center of the second stud should be 16" from the starting pointw(hich is the outside of the first stud). This makes the distance between the first and second studs 13 3/4". The rest of the studs should be 14 1/2" apart. This should make all your panels land on stud centers, except the end stud at the starting end of the wall. The other end of the wall will require a cut unless you have planned for the wall to be four, eight, twelve, sixteen ... or any multiple of four feet.
Be aware that the panels will tend to drift a bit off of the stud center due to minor variations in the surface of the edge of the panels. When putting on OSB, I recommend using an eight penny nail to space the panels for expansion. This will prevent the from blowing out if they get wet.
When I do a forty foot wall, I like to start the sheathing installation at the center of the wall so that the panel shift works toward both ends. Four panels with a 1/8" spacing will add 1/2 inch to the drift. With only 3/4" available for nailing when the edges are centered perfectly and the seams are tight, you can see the problem. One of the ways I handle the problem is to shave the half inch off of every fourth panel.
Even if everything would fit seamlessly and if everything were perfectly laid out, you would still see a bit of drift, so you just have to analyze as you go along and compensate. Also, be sure to make your layout by measuring centers - Use a long tape attached to the end of the wall - Don't move the tape, just read in one continuous operation. Use the marks on the tape to mark each 16"
well put
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
When we did roofs, we sometimes got plywood that was made to be spaced a sixteenth of an inch apart (though we never did it); don't know if they make OSB that way. I found out when I asked the boss what all the writing on the plywood meant. Don't remember now what it said that meant it was intended for this spacing.
BTW, what you said about not moving your tape is good--I've seen people use a framing square and slide it or flip it to do layout--gets pretty messed up.
Edited 8/19/2004 8:48 pm ET by Danno
Edited 8/19/2004 8:49 pm ET by Danno
Last February, I had to go back and correct a second floor problem where the floor joists had been cut too long. I think the wall had been pushed out before the joist installation. Anyway, we fixed the problem by extracting the rim, cutting the joists to the right length, pushing the wall back in to plumb (sledgehammers), and reinstalling the rim. To get to the problem, we had to remove the steel siding. Underneath, we found that the OSB was bulged out up to five inches. This was surely the result of not gapping the sheathing, combined with the intrusion of moisture.Les Barrett Quality Construction
Ah, sledgehammers. Fond recollections of beating the living crap out of walls. We framed a curtain wall for a house on a lake and overnight the boss actually looked at the plans and found our rough openings were all wrong. Next day, hammer out all the studs and put 'em back in on new layout.
Sheathing, whether OSB or ply, is sized for a gap.
I was framing a long (ca 150') floor when the GC and the sheathing crewleader came to me complaining my layout was off 'cuz the sheathers had to sister a nailer and rip the next piece to get back on lay out.
I pinned an 8 into the center of the joist we were standing on, hooked my 100'er and walked back to the laid sheathing. Laid the tape on their first edge and it was spot on layout from the center of the floor.
Looked at their spacing practice and there was none. Showed the GC exactly how wide the sheathing ply was and explained that sheathing likes an 8d spacer.
Crewleader turned red and shy.
RTFBack of the sheet goods.
SamT
I've heard and believed that sheathing is the closest approximation to a dimensionally predictable and squared material. After experiencing many sheathing alignment problems, I found that this is not a dependable, hard and fast rule. Over the long term, sheathing and flooring may prove to be true to expected dimensions. Meanwhile, there is some stuff out there that does not meet standards. I had the experience last year of training a group of "framers" to understand some of the intricacies of sheathing. Unfortunately, when we started to build walls, I learned that all sheathing does not necessarily meet expectations. We were getting discrepancies in the dimensional aspects of the sheathing and flooring. Trust sheathing, but verify!
You are absolutely right about sizing for the gap; however, it is good to check the actual dimensions of the sheathing nowadays.
Les Barrett Quality Construction
Edited 8/20/2004 12:07 am ET by Les
Ron,
If the studs truly are not laid out 16" on-center and the stud bays are filled full depth with foam, the easiest way to rock the interior walls may be to simply furr the walls out.
Run furring strips horizontally across the studs, 16" on-center, from floor to ceiling.
It's likely you'll only have to do this on the exterior walls, the interior walls may have a more accurate layout.
It'll only cost a few minutes per wall now, but it'll save hours and the added $$ that would otherwise have to be spent compensating for it down the road.