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Framing on Concrete Slab with Radiant

madmadscientist | Posted in Construction Techniques on December 20, 2008 01:35am

Hello All,

Over xmas break I want to frame in several non-load bearing walls. I need to frame in the garage, and three closets. Actually over break I get to do all the rough electrical, gas line piping, boiler and tankless WH installs also…some break…

We put radiant tubing in the slab and I am paranoid about doing anything thats going to puncture one of those tubes. Its a 4″ slab with 1/2″ PEX in the ‘middle’

I don’t absolutely need to fasten the bottom plates to the slab do I?

Do I need to use pressure treated wood for the bottom plates?  If I put a layer of peel and stick water-proofing membrane on the bottom side of the bottom plate wouldn’t that be good enough?  Any particular peel-and-stick I should use?

The garage is temp untill after the inspections then I’m tearing it down to open back up the space but the closets are permanant.

Daniel Neumansky

Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA.  Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/ 

Oakland CA 

Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer


Edited 12/19/2008 5:36 pm by madmadscientist

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  1. frenchy | Dec 20, 2008 01:55am | #1

    Just guessing here.. why couldn't you use adhesives like PL4000 etc? 

  2. davidmeiland | Dec 20, 2008 02:01am | #2

    Knowing where the 'middle' is makes a big difference. Last job where we had similar we used 1/4" x 2-1/2" split anchors to attach 2x PT to the slab. That means drilling a hole into the concrete that's a hair over 1" deep. If your 5/8" OD PEX is actually centered in the slab then you should have 1-1/2" of cover. Our PEX was tied to a #3 rebar mat that was on 1" dobies, so I figured I had close to 2" and I drilled without too much concern. We also had the PEX on air test at 100 PSI so I figured I'd know if I hit it. A little preplanning goes a long way.

    1. User avater
      madmadscientist | Dec 20, 2008 02:05am | #3

      Our PEX was tied to a #3 rebar mat that was on 1" dobies, so I figured I had close to 2" and I drilled without too much concern. We also had the PEX on air test at 100 PSI so I figured I'd know if I hit it. A little preplanning goes a long way.

      I believe we have a similar situation but I did not overloard the concrete pour so who knows what I actually ended up with.  The humoungous PITA of fixing a leak in inslab radiant tubing makes me not want to chance it.

      If I use PT wood then I suppose I could glue it down but do I really need to?  Is it crazy for me to not want to use PT wood?

      Daniel Neumansky

      Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA.  Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/ 

      Oakland CA 

      Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer

      1. davidmeiland | Dec 20, 2008 02:12am | #4

        Yeah, it's crazy when the inspector comes in and calls you out for not using treated on concrete. From the other thread I gather that your inspector may have a fairly dim view of anything not 100% normal. Go in there and ask if you can glue plates down. I have heard it done. I have also heard of guys locating the tubing using infrared cameras and other methods.

        1. ChiefWiggum | Dec 21, 2008 01:05am | #5

          I would have no issue gluing down pressure treated plates for interior partition walls. I recently glued one down and forgot to not glue the plate under the door opening.  When I got around to cutting the plate from the opening the concrete broke out where it was glued.  It was just regular old subfloor adhesive.  Its pretty freakin strong.   If you're going to glue down you need to use PT.  The stick on membrane will keep the glue from holding to the wood. 

      2. User avater
        BillHartmann | Dec 21, 2008 08:09pm | #15

        In addition to the natural rot resistant woods (redwood and cedar) you can also use the borate treated lumber. If you can find it in your area..
        William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe

  3. User avater
    dedhed6b | Dec 21, 2008 01:21am | #6

    Use metal track, fasten with 5/8 pins and screw your bottom plate through the sides, or just use metal altogether.

    "Shawdow boxing the appoclipse and wandering the land"
    Wier/Barlow
  4. logcrafter | Dec 21, 2008 02:28am | #7

    the  way i read the ibc pt or naturally durable wood ie. western red cedar, cypress, heart redwood. sure you would have to make sure your building inspector will go along. i hate pt so am always looking for other options.

    1. frammer52 | Dec 21, 2008 02:54am | #8

      Use pt with pl 4000 and 2" cut nails, the nails will hold the plates down until the glue dries.  We have done this with no problems.  By nailing it, you can frame immediatly!

      1. davidmeiland | Dec 21, 2008 04:31am | #9

        Just be sure whatever you do that the inspector has signed off. The AHJ here will not allow the glue only, they want to see the fasteners.

        1. MikeSmith | Dec 21, 2008 06:09am | #10

          we use ramset  2 1/2 " pins with washers so they won't overdive.... gives us 1" of penetration and we had no spallingMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

  5. Catskinner | Dec 21, 2008 07:05am | #11

    For framing over radiant I've used redwood for the bottom plate, construction adhesive, and short case-hardened nails. Works great.

    Just nick the concrete with the nails, this will be enough to hold everything still until the glue sets. There is no reason to drive the nails very far.

  6. alwaysoverbudget | Dec 21, 2008 07:28am | #12

    i'd use 2"tapcons,inspector won't know if they go 1/2 or 3". glue the closets and the wall thats coming down i might find some glue that looks good but would pull easy.

    i like the pressure test idea also.

    YOU ONLY NEED TWO TOOLS IN LIFE - WD-40 AND DUCT TAPE. IF IT DOESN'T
    MOVE AND SHOULD, USE THE WD-40. IF IT SHOULDN'T MOVE AND DOES, USE THE
    DUCT TAPE.

  7. User avater
    shelternerd | Dec 21, 2008 07:51am | #13

    We glue interior walls by running a bead on both sides of the wood. Bostik has a low VOC construction adhesive that works on the same principle as gorrilla glue (it works better on wet materials because it reacts with the water) so that is my call for treated to concrete connections and all interior work where the fumes from the regular panel adhesive would stink up the place (and destroy the ozone layer)

    Be well

    M

    ------------------

    "You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."

  8. User avater
    Jeff_Clarke | Dec 21, 2008 04:37pm | #14

    Too late to help you, but when we did ours I figured out approximately where all the interior partitions would cross the radiant tubing (Onix rubber not Pex) and I cut 12" pieces of 1" x 1" steel angle and electrical-taped them legs down over the tubing.

    That way, driven fasteners into the area would be deflected.   Total cost - < $100

    Jeff

  9. KFC | Dec 23, 2008 05:22am | #16

    Karl Wanaselja, a local green builder, has built with no PT/Cedar/Redwood in the Bay Area.  He uses sill sealer between concrete and doug fir, and has passed inspections.  I use ACQ all the time, personally, but I can respect anyone who doesn't want to.

    Can you create some perpendicular plywood bracing walls to stabilize the wall configuration?

    k

    1. User avater
      madmadscientist | Dec 23, 2008 08:41am | #17

      Do you know what he used for the sill sealer?

      thanks,

      Daniel Neumansky

      Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA.  Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/ 

      Oakland CA 

      Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer

      1. KFC | Dec 23, 2008 07:19pm | #18

        It was that pink compressable foam sill sealer that comes in a roll.  acts as a capillary break btwn the slab and the wood.  He used it with fir for all of his mudsills. 

        k

        edited addition: actually, i like the guy above's idea of metal studs.

        Edited 12/23/2008 11:22 am ET by KFC

  10. JeffinPA | Dec 24, 2008 01:56am | #19

    We just glue the floors down.

    Strike lines, run heavy bead of glue, stand up walls, maybe even drive shims between joists above and top plate to sandwich the wall tight (when wood shrinks it  will not be snug anymore but I like to get them snug) and let er go.

    Make sure you tie the walls together and I have never had a problem with them.

    We screw the drywall and dont beat on the walls but if the bottom plate is reasonably dry, then the construction adhesive will bond everything together fine.

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