Replies

1. 
   jayzog | Dec 10, 2008 08:00pm | #1

   I would figgure my costs, add the apropriate amount for overhead and profit and give them a price.

   What the others do , who cares. With Sq ft prices you are likely to either lose money,which I think you don't want. or over pricing, then you will probably not get the job.

1. 
   Ceasar | Dec 10, 2008 10:43pm | #3

   Thanks for the response! That is usually what we do, but I thought referring to some kind of sq. ft. price would be a guide or a double check deal. Obviously, we need to at least meet our costs, but sometimes its nice to see what the might be the going rate is from other areas or people. This project is not a straight forward frame with split level floors and cut up rooflines, which takes more time amd requires more money! I hate losing money on stuff like this and too high of a price can cost us the job. Time to get out the crystal ball!

2. 
   frenchy | Dec 10, 2008 10:01pm | #2

   I can't speak for the NE but around here we've gone from $8-9 a sq.ft. for framing down to $4. a sq.ft.   Before special stuff like bump outs, decks,  or complex roof etc. added to the cost but now they are going strickly per sq.ft.

1. 
   Ceasar | Dec 10, 2008 11:08pm | #4

   Thanks Frenchy, sq. ft. numbers sure would save time and make it easy, but making sure we meet the base cost is ultimately the most important. Like I said in the previous response, the frame is funky and looks like it will take some time with all the different things going on. The builder we are doing this for is an aquiantance we have known for a while and was kind enough to help us fill our work calender. We want to give a reasonable price and avoid losing money with excessive hours with myself and crew. Never seems to be a clear science, and not to mention mother nature raising hell with rain/snow/cold. We are in the $9.50 sq. ft. range with the price we about to submit. But ,like a sign of the times, that price is negotiable (to a certain extent).

1. 
   frenchy | Dec 10, 2008 11:17pm | #5

   I'm sorry the numbers I gave were for new construction not remodeling.  Remodeling numbers would have to be higher but I've never gotten consitant enough answers to give any solid numbers..

    I might point out that right now the tiny handful of frammers locally are doing anything to stay busy including working for wages only.  

2. 
   frammer52 | Dec 10, 2008 11:21pm | #6

   That price may bew competitive.  Where in Mass.?  What style of house?  How many man hours?  Trusses or hand cut rafters?  Finnished soffit and facia?  Job site electric available?  Include fasteners?

   A lot of varriables.

   Help us and we will try to help you.

1. 
   Ceasar | Dec 11, 2008 12:55am | #7

   The job is coastal NH. the frame is a cut up 1875 sf addition that is part of a remodel. The floor system has three elevations with a step or two for the transitions. two different stairs dumping out onto a common landing from adjacent parts of the home. Some of the first floor has different rooflines and the second floor has one low pitch on one side and the other a steep pitch with two shed dormers. A screen porch off the back with a gable roof with a side portion that has a overlay low shed pitch. The trim is conventional fj pine with 1x8 on the fascia and soffit and a 1x3 shadow. Job is labor only with fasteners and electrical service provided. I figure four weeks with three man crew and myself at three weeks to keep cost down ($18,000?)Hopefully that will cover it, any more I feel the price may be too high. Can't lose this framing job.

1. 
   CapeFramer | Dec 11, 2008 01:32am | #8

   Four years ago I was getting $10 per foot plus extras such as hips valleys a dormers skylights and anything else that wouldn't appear on a straight cape or colonial.  Final price usually came in around $15 per foot.  Currently prices have dropped by about 20% and sometimes more if I want to keep the crew going.  Currently doing a 3000 sq foot house for 30,500 roof and sidewall ready.  Prices all over the map though just lost my next job which i had a contract for 21,500 on to a guy that was willing to work for 14,000.  I refused to drop and contractor said ok sorry.  Good luck hope you get it.

2. 
   frammer52 | Dec 11, 2008 01:34am | #10

   I was hoping you were on to help him.

3. 
   CapeFramer | Dec 11, 2008 01:49am | #11

   Don't know how much help I can be as pricing frames should be my area of expertise and over the last six months I have just about felt completely out of touch with them.  With any luck things will turn around after the holidays

4. 
   frammer52 | Dec 11, 2008 02:02am | #12

   the guy I worked for for 14 years, was telling me he has framed only 15 houses this year, vs. 125-150 in the good years.

   He has been framing apt. all year, has a bunch lined up for next year also.

5. 
   frammer52 | Dec 11, 2008 01:33am | #9

   Using $30/hr as your rate?

   It would work in upstate NY where I live but, not sure about where you are.

6. 
   jayzog | Dec 11, 2008 02:18am | #13

   If I read you post right, you will have 3 employees working 4 40hr weeks and yourself working 3 40hr weeks. That comes out to 768 man hours. At 18K that is 23.68/hr.

   I don't know anything about your situation, but if you are paying your employees(and yourself) any more than about $12 an hour, you are either operating illegally or losing money.

   Using your time estimate, I would bid that job at around 45K.

    

7. 
   cdwalsche | Dec 11, 2008 01:46pm | #17

      I WOULD HAVE TO AGREE  WITH CAPEFRAMER...

   CURRENTLY HERE IN WESTERN MASS WE ARE FRAMING FOR AROUND $11 SQFT.

   USED TO BE $15 .   GOOD LUCK  HOPE YOU LAND THE JOB!

    

3. 
   mikeroop | Dec 11, 2008 04:41am | #14

   If you've known this guy for a while why don't you express your concern with him more than likely it will do more good than what we can help for this situation. Good luck.

1. 
   Ceasar | Dec 11, 2008 05:13am | #15

   Mikeroop,
   Good point, and it has been in the back of my mind all day, and having been in the business, I did not want to want to reveal to him a lack of competance in this area (pride?). That may sounds silly, but at the end of the day, it probrably would be worth a simple conversation reguarding this issue. His business is much larger than mine and he deals with prices from subs on framing/ roofing/siding on a regular basis. As much sense that it makes, I never regret throwing it out to you guys in the forum, because every thread I post on any issue I come away with information that sticks with me and learn something new as well as a different perspective every time! Kudos to all of you!

1. 
   mikeroop | Dec 11, 2008 06:11am | #16

   he'll understand where you are coming from being you do your own framing and respect you for wanting to be fair to him and to yourself but keep in mind that you can set at home for free or you can under bid a job and go to work for free:) neither of which i'm sure you don't want to do if you get it post some pics

4. 
   jjwalters | Dec 11, 2008 02:46pm | #18

   I'd call a guy in the exact location and ask him what the going rate is.........call a couple......check around with carps etc.......

   here that may be down to three bucks by now (I don't know since building is totaled)

   I'd find that price......figure the house......then go back and figure the extra's and hard to do stuff........and bid the job.

   I know if I were to NOT consider the times and place . . .and do it the old way with a hefty overhead and profit worked in.......I'd clearly not get the job.

   Cause it is way ugly out there and getting uglier...if not in your place stick around till summer and you too will be enjoying the fruits of a country gone mad on eight years of thoughtless greed .

   My Blog

1. 
   Ceasar | Dec 12, 2008 12:25am | #19

   JJW,
   Well during the course of the day, I did talk to some people about the going rates for framing and couldn't believe how much it varied. Some prices included the roof and siding, some just roof and windows and made it hard to disect the numbers accurately. The general range seemed to be $6 to $12 per S.F. and from my numbers seem to be near the upper middle portion of the range. I guess it really does boil down to making sure you can cover your #### in every way; because business costs can vary, while we do things legally with all the appropriate workmans' comp. and other insurances, there are plenty of companies out there who 1099 their guys leading to much lower overhead cost resulting in lower framing prices, especially now.One last thought, I was also surprised a little at the amount of people that were resistant to disclosing the going rates to me. As if I had no business knowing that information from them and potentially stealing work from them, I suppose they did not know me from Adam and had no reason to such "info" up.

1. 
   frammer52 | Dec 12, 2008 01:39am | #20

   I am suprised that anyone even gave you a price, or a legitimate one.

1. 
   Ceasar | Dec 12, 2008 01:57am | #22

   It must the season of goodwill

2. 
   Bing187 | Dec 12, 2008 01:53am | #21

           That may be less a case of being secretive, and more a case of not having a set # that they use for square foot bidding.

           My experience in Southeast MA. has been that the only guys who throw around square foot numbers are 1 of 3 things. They build tract houses, fairly straight up. Or, they build "whatever" and not very well. Or, they are fairly new in the business, and think that they "should" have a sq ft price.

           Now I'm not saying that everyone falls into these parameters. I'm sure Mike Smith can look at a house and spin the numbers in his head quick enough to give a sq ft. price. But even then, it's not a sq ft price. It's a price based on time, multiplied times a factor of hourly overhead and profit, divided by the square footage of the house. And to me, that's the only way to do it.

          You can take a 48x30 ranch house, that's just shy of 1500sq ft. ( Don't see enough of those, but it's an example. ). One has 7'-6" ceilings, no gable overhangs, small windows, vinyl siding / aluminum trim, 5/12 pitch.   Another has 10' wall height, with cathedral, barrel vaulted ceilings with engineered, structural ridges, 12/12 pitch, 16" gable overhangs, Ganged walls of glass lined up with french doors below, 5 skylights, red cedar shingles, laced corners, wood trim, including applied Boston casing and crown/window eyebrows on every window.............One I would be happy to do for in the $8 a foot neighborhood, the other, I'd be thinking nearly( or maybe more than) double that. Same square footage. That's why I base all of mine on time. And that's why the numbers vary, partly because some guys are worth it, some are good but too optimistic as to time, and others are hackers who will do it fast enought to make $$$, quality be Da#$!mmed.

   Good luck.

   Bing 

1. 
   Ceasar | Dec 12, 2008 02:30am | #23

   yeah, I hear you. It really is in the fine details of what the componants are. The reality is you could sink a ton of money into anything and the sq. ft. #'s are then skewed. They can quickly be irrelevant when that happens, making the numbers work for our company is really the bottom line.

2. 
   CapeFramer | Dec 12, 2008 04:36am | #24

   I would have to disagree with your view on sq foot pricing.  I price by the sq ft and don't build track homes.  I think our industry would benefit if all had a sq ft starting price to work with and add from there.  Whether I am pricing a 34 28 cape or a 4500 sq foot custom I start with $8 per ft currently and add from their on the cape I may not find many extras but on the other I may find enough to double my price.  It is far more scientific and consistent than sitting looking at a plan and guessing how many man hours I think it will take. 

1. 
   Bing187 | Dec 12, 2008 06:55am | #25

           Well.....I guess we can agree to disagree.:)  "Sitting and looking at a plan and guessing how many hours it will take" sounds a little more haphazard than the method I use. I break it down into individual tasks, assign man hours to each, and usually hit it fairly close.

          Site conditions and weather play a bigger part in throwing the times off than me missing anything significant. That would happen whether or not I bid based on my time or the sq ft. But...that's after 25 years of swinging and 15 of bidding my own jobs. The gentleman that I learned the trade from is 73, still framing, and can sit with a print for 15 minutes, and probably figure man hours within 20 or 30 on a 800-1000 man hour job. Still amazes me to this day......Different methods for different folks, I guess.I see your point as to having a base and working from there, but it seems like the houses have such random, time consuming things thrown in these days, the baseline would be thrown from the get go."Twenty-five foot ceilings with 7 eyebrow dormers and a balcony that looks over the garage? Sure, whatever you want."

          Anyhow...as long as you get the work, and you're making the money that you should, that's all that matters, right?

   Bing

    

   B

2. 
   JerraldHayes | Dec 13, 2008 02:36am | #26

   CapeFramer — "I would have to disagree with your view on sq foot pricing. I price by the sq ft and don't build track homes. I think our industry would benefit if all had a sq ft starting price to work with and add from there. Whether I am pricing a 34 28 cape or a 4500 sq foot custom I start with $8 per ft currently and add from their on the cape I may not find many extras but on the other I may find enough to double my price...."

   Ahhh, CapeFramer I think ya really opened up a can of worms with one. I'm with Bing 99% on his technique and his observation that:

   Bing187 msg=113817.22 — "My experience in Southeast MA. has been that the only guys who throw around square foot numbers are 1 of 3 things. They build tract houses, fairly straight up. Or, they build "whatever" and not very well. Or, they are fairly new in the business, and think that they "should" have a sq ft price."

   There is no reliable mathematical correlation between the SF footprint or floor space of a house and the time involved in erecting it.

   Here are two 1000 SF floor plans. How can they possibly be the same cost to frame.

   View Image

   Here is another example. Both profiles represent 3000 SqFt projects. How can they possibly be the same cost to frame.

   View Image

   At the end of my article The Hidden Dangers of Square Foot Estimating there are two other articles I cite that point out the problems with square foot estimating.

   Does your $8 per ft starting price account in any way for the difference in time it takes to install framing members 12" O.C. vs 16" O.C. vs. 24" O.C.? What is included in your base SF price and what is an extra? In my first graphic here Project B has more interior walls than does A.

   Lets say Project A is a Gabled Roof while Project B is a Hip Roof. Still they are both 1000 SF so can you still use the same SF Framing Price for framing for both of them? Nah ya can't. Hips take more time and therefore cost more. Which brings up even more issues. What about the number and sizes of dormers? What about the number of and sizes of opening for windows and doors. They will affect both material and labor time costs so how can they be accounted for a single all inclusive SF Estimate formula?

   If I was a Framing Contractor I would estimate my projects using Systems (or Assemblies) Estimating or Unit Price Estimating. It's very easy to be 15% to 20% off on what you really should be charging based on SF estimating and that's way to big a business risk to be taking in my estimation especially in these times.

   Another thing that sticks out when I hear Square Foot prices for framing being quoted it is usually $5 per square foot or $6 per square foot and to the best of my recollection I never or rarely hear prices like $5.75 per square foot or $6.35 per square foot. When I hear those big whole dollar numbers that tells me that the numbers are arbitrary and not really based on any real computations and that's a clear signal that they are negotiable! I can think of a few builders that I know that pick up on that like they're sharks and will talk you down from a $6 per square foot to $5.75 or lower getting you to "sharpen your pencil on this job". It's much harder if not impossible to argue down a detailed assembly or unit price list. From a pure negotiation point of view giving quotations based on Square Foot estimates is just real bad strategy.

   And even if Systems Estimating or Unit Price Estimating loses you some jobs to other framers who use Square Foot Estimating aren't you better off that way rather than doing work that losing or costing you money out of your own pocket?

   View Image

   Edited 12/12/2008 6:37 pm ET by JerraldHayes