I have a question regarding the RO for a double 2-6 interior door (5-0 total). Would you change the width of your opening to accomodate for a T astrical making the RO larger or is a door a door and the thickness of the T astrical is accomodated for by ripping a little from each side of the door?
Thanks,
Scott
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Replies
T astrical ??????????????
T astrigal (def:) A strip of wood in the shape of a "T" that goes between two operable doors. It blockes the crack between the doors providing privacy.
If you have room, increase the RO. Why complicate the finish carpenters job?
I learn something new every day!
Usually you just rip the center stiles down to accept the astrigal. If you ripped all the stiles so they matched on the astrigal side, they wouldn't match on the other side.
Is this for an interior or exterior door? For interior double doors I like to rabbet both doors--cleaner than an astrigal, but it limits your hardware choices.
It really comes down to a battle. The doors are interior and the opening has been framed for months. The doors came from a local millwork shop and are larger than will fit in the 62" RO. I say that it is lazyness on their part because they don't want to take the time to rip down the doors and they should rehang the doors to the proper size. They say that all doors with a T astrigal should be framed one inch larger to accomodate it. I, in my 29 years on construction have never framed a RO differently for a door with or without a T astrigal. Am I behind the times?
I have a question regarding the RO for a double 2-6 interior door (5-0 total).
You should have asked that question when you ordered the door. I always have the RO included somewhere in the order specs.
I'd rather they get their thumb smashed than mine. You made an intelligent assumtion based on your experience. The facts got in the way.
In hindsite that would have been the best thing to do. But my point is, why should I even have to ask such a question. A RO for a 5-0 door (T astrigal or not) has always been 62", why are we changing it now?
Maybe where you live but i have always had a 62" R/O with no astragal and 63" R/O with an astragal.
And it has been that way for the last 24 years i have been building, i think you should call your supplier and find out.
Same here. Double doors, RO = doors + 3", so a pair of 2/6 doors will rough in at 63".
What I often do when in doubt is to frame the opening 1-1/2" wider than the worst case I can think of. Then, I screw a piece of 1x to each trimmer, narrowing the opening by 1-1/2". Then add the sheathing and trim to the 1x. That way, if there's a serious cluster and the door is even bigger than feared, there is an easy way to gain width, just remove one or both pieces of 1x and trim the plywood back accordingly.
Nice detail, i will start doing that too. This last summer i was away for three hours one day. When the 3 sets of double french doors came a month or so later guess what??? They were framed at 74"!!!
Called the engineer and he said no!! Spent the next day re-framing, not fun! Of course they were microlam headers too so not a profitable day!
I've gotten corked a couple of times. Received a pair of 3/6 x 7/0 doors in a jamb made of 8/4 solid VG fir. The OD of the jamb was 87-1/2" because of the added jamb thickness and the astragal. Sometimes you can get the info up front from the maker or the vendor, but I usually don't bother anymore, I just give myself padding and use it if I need it.
Yeah my problem was a framer working for me who has hearing problems! Or memory problems, i'm still can't decide which it was!
Problem I've had is that someone will look me in the eye and say "that unit needs a 86" RO" and then a month later it's delivered and it's bigger. Had the same problem with door jamb heights also, using various combinations of sills and shoes on exterior doors. I generally go nominal door height +4" now, assuming finish floor will be 3/4". Oh, and don't ask my how many times I've been lied to about floor thickness.
Often, these days, double doors are not built with astragals (this is the correct spelling of the word, BTW). But the classic way to hang double doors was with one dominant, operable door, and one passive, secondary door, equipped with an astragal and both top and bottom slide bolts, these bolts being mortised into the astragal.Most traffic would use the dominant, active door, but, to open the space up for parties, moving, etc, the secondary door could be swung wide, as well, after releasing the top and bottom bolts.These days, you often see daylight between two doors of equal ranking -- either door can be opened first, because both are held shut by a single ball catch at the top of each door.Your options are to: 1) go with this modern downgrade, 2) reframe the opening to do it right, or,3 take a little bit off of each of the four door edges that you've got. This last would definitely be my first choice in your situation, since total astragal thickness is typically no more than 5/8", or a bit less than a fat 1/16" per edge.These things happen, and as you move on in the trades, it's mind-blowing how many details/ options you have to be able to file away. Be thankful that this problem is so easy to solve!AitchKay
I always frame french doors 1" wider on the rough opening. You just do the math and add it up, plus your shimming room. Sometimes 1" seems a bit big though, when you're dealing with brickmould. I usually leave the plywood 1" long on one side, just in caseI don't see a big deal with ripping them down, though. Except you might loose some space for the lockset. Seems the steel 2-6 doors have a smaller stile sometimes.(Probably insignificant.)On the other hand, if they didn't know it was getting a astrical...Why do you want an astrical for interior?Another thing to realize is you can't rip down a steel door, and a door company isn't going to make special doors for french, they're just going to use stock size + astrical. O.k. - How do you spell astrical?(spell check doesn't like it. lol)
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Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
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Aha!
You make some good points. On exterior steel doors you are correct, you can't rip them down and that is why they are a standard size 62" RO. Why should we have one set of rules for steel and one for wood? Maybe a third for composite? I need an astrigal because it is a bathroom and the owners would like privacy. Astrigal is spelled with a "g"
Just doing the math here - 30+30+3/4+3/4+1/2(ast.)+1/2(space)=62 1/2 (+ reveals). Not arguing - it's been a few years since I've built. Is 62" big enough? (Maybe thats why I let the plywood hang over, can't remember .)
OK. Thanks to all for your help.
I'll end up doing it myself, it's not that big a deal, but it's the principal of the matter that gets me.
The shop will not alter it?
By the time you get it there and back you could.....................but you know that already.
I, in my 29 years on construction have never framed a RO differently for a door with or without a T astrigal. Am I behind the times?
See answer above...but since you ran that line by us, I'll run mine by you.
I, in my 35 years have never framed a double door RO without adding the extra inch for the astragal. My reasoning is that it's easier to do a little fill in than to find an extra inch in a too small rough opening.
You are not behind the times, you just didn't have enough information on the door details. Now, since you didn't play it safe, you'll have to re-frame the opening. Just take out the trimmers and replace them with 1" trimmers.
I always assume that the finish carpenter will add an astragal, so I always add 3/4 inch to the framed opening. I figure that if they decide to not use one, they can just add some fatter shims to make up the difference.
Edited 3/27/2009 12:11 am ET by jimAKAblue
>>"Would you change the width of your opening to accomodate ......"
I would frame the rough opening based on the print, or based on my specification if there was no print, or based on the sellers information if I was buying their "stock" unit.
IMO -- there's about a 90% chance that the 62" dimension that others have mentioned, is correct. And of the remaining 10%, probably half of the chance is that the unit is slightly smaller (so no problem there).
Leaving you with about a 5% chance that if you frame it without knowing the real number, you'll need to frame it twice.
No that is the problem! With an astragal it needs to be framed 63" opening.
Maybe we should start a thread on how to rip down steel doors - LOL.
add a 1/2" to your r.o.
trimmer will like it!