I have cut a lot of stairs but yhey have all been straight-run or had a landing at a turn.I am now faced with a set of radiused stairs and I would like some input on the best way to frame them.I am a big fan of “stepping-out” the stringer from the wall so that drywall and a skirtboard slips between the treads.Any help?
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From your post, it sound like the stairs are inside framed walls as opposed to free-standing, correct? Also, is this a full circular stair or just radius winders, i.e. two runs of straight stairs connected by a radius?
yes, the stairs are within framed walls,and you could consider these radiused winders even though tread #s 1,2,6?,&14 are the only straight treads. All others grow at the outside of the tread.
I am prety sure that the winder stairs I have seen. Were made with Ledgers. not stringers.
Pretty tough to cut radius stringers, tho some of the lumber I've seen lately may be able to do it..........
Are we trying to stick a square peg in a round hole again, or a round peg in a square hole my friend? Is the stairwell round or square? Hey Red how would you approach this one on site? http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages/?msg=21331.13
Edited 7/5/2002 9:08:34 PM ET by Edgar76b
I admire you guys who can figure these things out on paper - my approach has always been more physical - once I can visualize the problem in my head, I just try to construct the image I see in my head. Doesn't always work though......
Like trying to run a 5-step crown molding continuously along a dormer eave and up the rake - an architect can draw it on paper, but try to do it on the jobsite with a compound mitre saw.
Or framing a skylight shaft from a sloped roof to a flat ceiling with continuous straight lines corner to corner and trying to keep all the planes flat. Doesn't work.
Yeah, I hear you. Sometimes Fitting a piece and Marking it, is more valuable than an elevation, or tape measure .That's why ,I was asking you, for your oppinion. It sounds like you get into some serious stuff Red . Are you a Restoration Carpenter?
Edgar,
I'm a GC, doing mostly high-end remodel work, usually on older homes. I've been lucky to work on some really nice houses in the SF Bay area and around Portland OR. My field of expertise is finish work, though I've done mostly everything at least once.
Much of the time I work with conceptual drawings only, which gives me the freedom to figure out the actual construction techniques for myself, which I really enjoy. I also quite a bit of design too, which is pretty groovy..........
You?
Red,
I spent some time in portaland About 6 years ago. I liked it there very cool. Also Did some work there too. Vincenti's Pizza is the Best! I've ever Had. Ever been to Powell's technical books? They Had A great carpentry section there. And there is a restoration lighting warehouse there too. check it out.
I started Out in the trades, as an electricians helper. I went to school to study art/music, in my Home town, during that time. I also had the opportunity to work for some very talented trades people, carpentry, concrete, masonary and painting.
I'm glad I did. That is how I have made my money, mostly. Not too much.
I worked on martha's vinyard in the eighties, for a summer. That is, when I fell in love with the idea of carpentry as a lifestyle choice, and the Girl at the dump with the black shorts, orange hair, and the green tortise, punk glasses .
The crew's carpenters were Artists in my mind. I learned About birdsmouths' and cedar shakes. They were about 10 guys. All master carpenters , They drew straws to see, who would be the forman, on the next job. Not Much like the real world. I don't think any of those guys had to work.
We worked on places 15 min. off the main drag, on dirt roads. No neighbors. There were about 3 or 4 jobs going at one time, as far as I could tell. At various stages. It was a priviledge for me to be a helper, With this crew. Very laid back, very high end. wish all jobs were that way.
We once finished off, the INSIDE of a beachfront, 2 story cottage, and guest house, with T-111. It was the end of the season . A Holywood celebrity needed a place to rent for a week. The island was booked full. We halted construction for him. Sheeted the inside. The following week, We tore it all off. That kinda blew my mind. Not what I was used to. I would love to know what was paid .
That is not where I am from. I come from a much more practical place, where money is always an issue. Trying to do the job right for a reasonable price is what I do. Which can sometimes be a trap, for a contractor. Sometimes a conflict of interests. Always remember you are only as good as your last job.LOL.
I think it is much easier to do a job right , When money is no object. But, sometimes you just, have to settle for, Par for the course. Put a ceiling on the budget, that's where the real creativity starts. We all have to do the job right, while being competitive. Getting the job. That's the trick for me. Not the crown moulding. There is a lot of competition around here.
I do installations. Too Small jobs. It is just me. I will take small remodeling jobs. finished basements, Decks , Garage conversions etc. The ones nobody else wants.
I claim to know a lot about doors. I Install garage doors , openers , Storm doors , victorian Storm Doors. Any kind of door that can be done by one guy. I also sub for Sears. I try to keep busy. But I can always find something to do, if I'm not.
Once, I worked on a private project, with the university of penn. A local community house, which was, hoping to become, A Historical Restoration Site. Also a very educational experience as well. I learned a lot about restoring mortar, recycled flooring and mouldings, face frames, Winder stairs, etc. This was a stone, Georgian style 1760 Farm House with a Victorian style Ell. , but there was evidence of an earlier dwelling within the main house. Very interesting to be in a house, torn apart like this one was. lol
Hey ANybody, do you know of any good books, About the charts on my steel square?
Edited 7/10/2002 8:22:47 PM ET by Edgar76b
Edited 7/10/2002 10:19:23 PM ET by Edgar76b
Edited 7/10/2002 10:33:02 PM ET by Edgar76b
Edited 7/10/2002 10:35:52 PM ET by Edgar76b
Edited 7/10/2002 10:37:33 PM ET by Edgar76b
Okay I don't know what to think anymore. Before checking my bookshelves I did
some searching on the net to see what I could find regarding Georgian Cornice
details. The second site I checked, The
Weather Hill Company, Ltd. "specializing in classic design, restoration"
had the following image on thier Custom
Millwork page.
View Image
While that's an entryway the detail it's really what I was trying to describe
minus a 1x6 fascia/rake/verge board which would make up the what we call a porkchop
at the base of the roof or dormer. Talking with everyone today the consensus
was that that was a bastardization of the correct detail. Well it wasn't unanimous
but the vote did go against my style and what appears above but you can bet
I'm going to print it out and bring it up again tomorrow.
So next I go to my bookshelves and the first book I pull down
an open is American
House Styles: A Concise Guide by John Milnes Baker, A.I.A. (who actually
lives just about two miles up the road from me, he's got a new neighbor too
Martha Stewart bought and has been remodeling the 153-acre Cantitoe Farm across
the street but that's a whole other discussion)
View Image
We must have been over this once before around here because when I opened the
book it opened right to page 39 in the chapter on the Georgian style where there
was a torn off piece of an envelope stuck in it as a bookmark. I scanned the
lower part of the page and you can read
the paragraph he wrote and view the two diagrams of the detail. Both he
and Asher Benjammin, the pattern book author he quotes have described the detail
that I thought was correct and appears above as "wrong".
Profit is like oxygen,
food, water, and blood for the body; they are
not the point of life, but without
them there is no life. —Jim Collins
& Jerry Poras—Built to Last
Wasn't he the guy( Asher Benjammin ) that designed the trusses. With the King and the Queen Posts. Hey Mr. Hayes, that term Pork chop. I am assumming you are refering to that little piece of the crown that extends around the corner, into which the rake crown adjoins? Cymatium is another new one for me Does that strictly apply to the piece of crown that runs up the rake? I gleaned that from the picture.
Edited 7/10/2002 10:50:28 PM ET by Edgar76b
Edited 7/10/2002 10:52:28 PM ET by Edgar76b
Edgar My Hayes was my dad. The only people who ever refer to me as Mr. Hayes
are cops. Jerry or Jerrald is fine.
As an afterthought I though I should mention that this mitre joint is a plain
old regular outside corner crown mitre joint.
View Image
There's no real porkchop in any of the the illustrations I posted so far. There
no real fascia/rake or verge board in any of them but if there was (as we have
sometimes done) the pork chop would be
View Image
There is a little debate amongst the guys talking today about
just what the actual porkchop was in that a few guys say it's just the little
triangle at the bottom while I say along with some of the others that it's the
whole thing. The fascia/rake or verge board (which ever you want to call it)
is just a plain old fascia/rake or verge board until you add that little triangle
piece then it becomes a porkchop in my opinion.
When you asked " I am assumming you
are refering to that little piece of the crown that extends around the corner"
nope it not the crown it's a section of the fascia or rake board. Sorry
that wasn't too clear.
As for Asher Benjammin I'm not so sure he can be credited with
actually designing the use of King and the Queen Posts in trusses but he can
certainly be credited with codifying a lot of the terminally. He produced a
pile of pattern books back in the early 1800's. He was to the carpenters back
then essentially what the Taunton Press is to us today in a way. I've got his
book The
American Builder's Companion somewhere and I'm pulling my hair out tonight
trying to find it. Thats a real good call though. I wouldn't have recognized
or remembered his name had I not seen it referenced in Baker's American House
Styles book.
Profit is like oxygen,
food, water, and blood for the body; they are
not the point of life, but without
them there is no life. —Jim Collins
& Jerry Poras—Built to Last
I guess i could try holding my pocket square up to the screen. I'll guess, I think that Detail is a 5:12 or maybe 6:12. Any significance to that?
Just guessing A different pitch might require a change in your bevel cuts. If you where trying to keep it simple, By keeping that "a plain old regular outside corner crown mitre joint." That might look strange with some piches. The problem is we Are not always building Georgian federal style revival houses right.
So ,as Architects You are pressed to meet the requirements each design. The cornice detail and the return are not usually the starting point or reason for designing a home. Are they? That's where Jfusco comes in .
In my opinion, the fact that the Georgian style, has become a style. Is because carpenters found that doing the Cymatium that way. with a 6:12 pitch. (Which met all the snow loads as well.) It was easier do. This style Evolved from England. I would be willing to bet a carpenter built it well before an Architect designed it. Just my opinion.
I guess i could try holding my pocket square up to the
screen. I'll guess, I think that Detail is a 5:12 or maybe 6:12. Any significance
to that? -- Not in terms of cutting the crown but if your setting out
to build a genuine authentic Georgian detail then I guess there would be. If
it was 12:12 or 2:12 then it probably wouldn't be Georgian would it?
"Just guessing A different pitch might require
a change in your bevel cuts." -- Not in these case here. The rafters
and rake trim here are all cut with square end cuts not plumb cuts so you can
think of the roof as being a flat square edged platform set on a hinge and then
tilted to the desired pitch. The end cuts will still remain square so the crown
will still wrap around them as a regular 90º outside corner.
The problems were are all talking about I think come from situations where
the rafters ends are plumb cuts and not square ends. Then what do you do? You
either have to to Joe's dual sized crown method or the bastard porkchop return
technique I originally pitched. Yeah not every house is Georgian and not every
house should have Georgian details so what do we do? That where creative subjectivity
comes in and a good understanding of classical architectural fundamentals can
be applied. Artistic license so to speak.
I'll add a caution though about the application of artistic license. There's
this house down in Harrison NY that I drove by again today that has to be in
my mind the biggest architectural disaster in NY. The picture I'll post doesn't
really even do it justice. It's a mish-mosh of all the classical orders of architecture
and various American styles from who knows when and the proportions are all
off all over the thing. It just doesn't make any design sense. Point is you
need to understand how styles and designs relate to each other. Kinda like you
mother always told you not to wear plaids and stripes together. Remember her
telling you that. Well this house is like plaids and stripes. Ya can't "do
architecture" just for the sake of architecture. There has to be reason
design and order to it all.
Well whatever, it's a funny picture anyway...(click for the big view)
If you where trying to keep it simple, By keeping
that "a plain old regular outside corner crown mitre joint." That
might look strange with some pitches. Like a really steep 12:12
for instance it sure would so you would do (design) something differently. That's
why different styles have different design conventions. But the dual sized crown
mitre technique would probably look even worse on such a steep 12:12 pitch.
The rake crown would be tiny.
The problem is we Are not always building Georgian federal
style revival houses right. Right but while Federal and Georgian
are related and sort of similar they are not the same style. They are two different
periods Federal coming after Georgian.
So ,as Architects You are pressed to meet the requirements
each design. The cornice detail and the return are not usually the starting
point or reason for designing a home. Are they? Well I'm a designer and
not an architect but no they aren't. BUT there is the popular aphorism attributed
to Mies van der Rohe "God is in the details" and the cornice
is a detail. It is important to get it right. The question is what's the right
design.
"That's where Jfusco comes in ."-- Thinking
about driving around these past two days I can say I possibly like and can see
using Joe's techniques for design style where the roof has a low slope but I
don't think it the right one for a steep roof and as both Joe and I have said
it's not exactly easy to do. Having the skill to do it when you have to however
is a huge plus and we should certainly understand the techniques and it's implications.
"I would be willing to bet a carpenter built it
(Georgian) well before an Architect designed it. Just my opinion."
--Well in the time period when the Georgian style emerged in American which
was probably just a few years behind when it emerged in England in both England
and America the way they built stuff organizationally was radically different
from what we know and see today. The architect and the carpenter then were most
likely the same person.
"I never realized there were two ways to make that
transition" the right way and the wrong way" .... --There are
probably even more ways that that too. We'll see what everyone else contributes
too I guess. Right and wrong is subjective too although in the case of the house
I posted above I think it's all wrong.
"Where did you come by that term(pork chop), Jerry?
--Porkchop? I've just always known it as a porkchop. Not sure when or where
I learned that but it seems to be part of the local vernacular here (NY &
NE). From some discussions on the JLC site I learned from Ed Williams and Allan
Edwards that down in Texas they call it a Lamb's Leg. What about the term "cats"
for blocking? Where does that come from? While a porkchop looks like a porkchop
a cat doesn't look anything like a cat. It looks like a piece of blocking which
is also what it called.
Profit is like oxygen,
food, water, and blood for the body; they are
not the point of life, but without
them there is no life. —Jim Collins
& Jerry Poras—Built to Last
Jerry,
When I suggested about the significance of the pitch the 5:12 or the 6:12 in your details,my thinking was This:
Knowing that all crown moulding was cut with hand planes back then. And having the general impression , I have. That, things were less technical, By choice as much as lack of modern day technology. It doesn't matter if you have a compound mitre saw . t will still only get you close in the real world. A hand saw will cut also. and you have to mark and fit it anyway. knowing what angle to start with. that is what i am trying to get at. Jfusco tells How to claculate it for any situatuion. My suggestion is the tail wagged the dog. they didn't want to do that much math.
I wonder how much Thought went into the shaping of crown curves too. Carpenters made there own planes. I am sure they might make a specific plane for a specific Job. But I am also certain they did not throw them away.
As far as the bevel cuts go. Joe gives 38' and 52' as an example, which of course = 90'. And Of course any combination of complimentary angles will work. As long as your roof sheathing hangs over far enough.
I wonder ,Not Knowing, If there was a standard bevel cut, that went on to every crown made, as a moulding cutters rulle of thumb. Also I wonder If he had to know The roof pitch.
I have never seen a colonial style or a victorian . with a 3:12 pitch. (maybe on a shed roof). I think it was expected. Standard. You Will be building your roof at 6:12. and your bevel cuts will be as such. Always
I also wonder, If the moulding suppliers that mill stock moulding today. Give any thought to this. There must be uniformity , Otherwise,: You are triming out your living room and keep cutting one peice too short. Next thing you know, your back for another piece, it has different bevel cuts. That is no good.
My question is: What roof pitch is Today's Stock crown made for? is it A carry over from, the old days? Will it just happen to be perfect for a 6:12 roof. I guess i will have to research that too.
That was the significance to my holding up my pocket square. ( I was hoping you would pick up on it. so I wouldn't have to write it out.) LOL we seem to be on the same page about a lot here. see you later Jerry have a good weekend.
Edited 7/11/2002 4:34:09 PM ET by Edgar76b
My Masters Thesis will be to determine if the houses first built here in the colonies had crown moulding details, which were designed to specific proportions.specific to that specific House. And by comparing the first houses built to the house built 10 years later , then 20 years etc.. Within a certain Area, Is there evidence, that the Curved details stayed the same as the houses grew in size . Therby proving. Carpenters brought there tools with them, made them kept them, and used them too. Proving too that that the PROCESS took priority over the design.
Unfortunately , I won't be able to find enough houses built in a cluster. which were built by the same people. And the records are probably not availableto verify it if i did.
Edited 7/11/2002 5:02:37 PM ET by Edgar76b
"Just guessing A different pitch might require a change in your bevel cuts." -- Not in these case here. The rafters and rake trim here are all cut with square end cuts not plumb cuts so you can think of the roof as being a flat square edged platform set on a hinge and then tilted to the desired pitch. The end cuts will still remain square so the crown will still wrap around them as a regular 90º outside corner."
-Jerry when I was refering to Bevel cuts , I meant the ripped cut on the edges of the crown moulding.
A change In bevel cuts changes the angle of the crown.
All of my thinking on this thread is in terms of A single piece of roman ogee type crown moulding.
And What I meant, by the roof pitch effecting the Bevel cuts, Was in terms of aesthetics, not application.
On the asher Benjammin detail: If you draw a line, parallel with the ground, thru the point where the crown meets the roof sheathing, the angle formed on either side of that Bi-section, will be the same angle. The roof being on one plane the crown angle being the other plane. the angle will be equal.
Was that angle specifically determined by the roof pitch?
The crown it self wants to be angled , from a design point of view, to match the roof angle. In otherwords the steeper the roof the steeper the crown. the flatter the roof the flatter the crown Angle. it has Nothing to do with plumb cuts or seat cuts or sguare cuts.
Of course, then we may be moving away from georgian Architecture.
Unless god has pre ordained that all bevel cuts should be, What they are today at Home Depot. I don't know. I would like to know. Is there a standard set of bevel cuts, ( compliments equalling 90') on the Books, that you know of, for designing crown moulding?
If the the bevel cuts are cut as specified, and dictated by the roof pitch, the cymatium will join as a plain old crown moulding joint . If the bevel cuts are not cut to match your individual roof pitch you will have to scale the rake profile to match the eave profile at the joint . That is my new theory. My question : ( and did jfusco already post this ,I'm not sure )
How do you determine the bevel cuts for a 7:12 roof.
Edited 7/13/2002 12:20:51 AM ET by Edgar76b
Must be a regional thing.
What you guys are calling a verge I have always called a barge. Or bargeboard or barge rafter. Never knew any better.
You edited your last post faster that I could reply to it and added the question regarding Cymatium. Looking it up it says "the topmost molding of a classical cornice".
Profit is like oxygen,
food, water, and blood for the body; they are
not the point of life, but without
them there is no life. —Jim Collins
& Jerry Poras—Built to Last
Red,
View Image
Et al,
View Image
Thanks Joe: I am just a lurker now,,,it will never be the same
Stan,
View Image
Joe this sounds pretty good. The point you made about having the profile scaled, is obviously very important.
Will I be able to find a shop that can mill the sizes I need. is this a common request, for Dormer crown moulding? Can I leave roof pitch and dormer pitch, in the millwrights hands . Can I expect it to be taken care off properly. Or must I rely on the Architect to do the Math. In your Experience, Have They given you what you need? Or do you sit on the roof . Wondering what is your not understanding. LOL, I guess this explains the invention of the return.
Have you tried this with cyma-recta and cyma-reversa profiles?
Edited 7/8/2002 11:26:13 AM ET by Edgar76b
Edger76,
View Image
Edited 7/8/2002 6:46:22 AM ET by J Fusco
I do small remodeling jobs, hiring an architect is not always an option. Figuring out what i need and giving it to a shop to build , for me to install. That is an option.
Is it customary for a shop to understand how to deal with this? I know they are pretty sharp, I haven't Asked them about a job like this. Should I be able to expect this of them?
Is there a Quick-er formula that will give me the crown widths needed to match a given roof pitch? Maybe there are ratios that could be determined to match the various pitches. I guess i would have to do the math.
It seems like the most complicated part of your equation, is figuring the overall profile width.
On the roof, I am sure the Angle could be easily figured, if the widths were Proportianately correct. In other words : If I knew that everyone else did there job properly milling the profiles. I could make it work. Otherwise as a contractor, I could spend a lot of time thinking; I didn't have it flat against the fence, when I cut. Or, the bevel cut wasn't laying flat against the wall, when I marked it. When actually it was the mouldings. They weren't milled to match. Do you know what I am saying?
I think it would be easier built up, with more wood and labor. I can now see why. They stopped it short ,returning the crown into the backer board, on the old Georgian style houses.
I cannot Possibly imagine buying two, different width mouldings, out of stock, Which will butt together perfectly.For my roof. Especially, after reading what you wrote. I have done crown moulding before. I have never done it on the dormer, and up the rake.
.
View Image
Pretty picture's J Fusco. You just went into great detail to explain that where 2 coumpound angles meet at 2 different pitches the width of the one of the pieces will be wider. Being that the case , one of the profiles will be skewed or different than the other. Not becuase it is cut on the bias, but because it is an entirely different profile. Am I understanding you right? Is that what you said? So, of the matching profiles, the wider of the 2 will go on the eave? Do I mis-understand you? The difference being about 1 " That does does change with a steeper pitch? Right. Is that for a specific pitch?
Maybe there is something, I am missing? I have done this in alluminum. i never thought about what i was doing. It was mark and trim, with tabs an pop rivets. You don't have to have knives made to do that. It's a little different
Edited 7/8/2002 4:09:20 PM ET by Edgar76b
View Image
"No, it has everything to do with the fact that the moulding is cut at an angle. It is that fact that allows the two mouldings with the exact profile just at a different scale to align." Which is exactly what I thought you said. Different scale.
Them is fightin words. Hey just relax guy I aint callin' you a liar I am just trying to understand. You are the only person that ever told me it could be done. i never even thought about it before now.
I hope I don't need to get one of my lawyers. I never said Aluminum was easy. It was a pain. I am just saying there was not much ( written )math Involved. It is easier to trim an 1/8th inch off the length of aluminum (on the roof). I also made some templates. (on the roof) Aluminum is more forgiving in some ways too.
If you have to trim the length of a peice of crown . You have to explain it to your cut man, (or if your me you have to climb down and do it your self.) It has to be cut with a saw. Hopefully, the adjoining room is avalable to work from. I am very fond of moulding , and aesthetically turned off by no-maintainence Archetecture. Although it is getting better. Restoration is a minute part of my buisness.
I don't expect to do this anytime soon . But when A guy says I can get all of my ducks in a row. Even before, I get on the roof by doing a little math. I want to be smart , and do my homework. Like i said , i am trying to understand, don't play it , that I am lacking some basic knowledge.
What you are saying is : If I determine the scale of the second piece , With your formula, have it milled. I can have High expectations that the joint will be clean. When I calculate the proper angle, with your formula.
Thank you for the Math. I have printed it out.
I hope I get the chance to try it someday.
Edited 7/8/2002 6:45:00 PM ET by Edgar76b
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Bring it on! LoL! I think you mis-understood, My Freind really, I already knew my rake cut would end up considerably longer if I tried to peice it like any other crown. But I never Knew that there was a formula to make it work. I always thought what you were saying made sense. I just wanted to make sure i understood. I don't have a lot of faith, that I can do the trig. But I do know i can make it work if i have the right peices. I think I might try it in my basement.i am going to work on it.
I am also learning the more I type. less seems comes across. I think i will shut up now thanks again.
Keep it simple stupid right
Edited 7/8/2002 9:04:48 PM ET by Edgar76b
View Image
Regarding this crown detail that I spoke about the other night after driving
around Westchester NY and Fairfield CT today and talking with some of the troops
at the very least I am half wrong regarding the proper detail for crown molding
at a roof cornice. While everyone was in agreement that the mating the two different
sized crowns with a cobbled odd mitre joint was wrong the way I described crown
making the turn:
Well that's a bastardization of what would be the real architecturally correct
Georgian detail. I've got to look through my pattern books this evening and
scan a copy of both my half-correct bastard method and the real one. From driving
around today and talking with the guys while we haven't done any of the two-differnt-sized-odd-angle-mitre
crown molding joints we have done both the bastard detail I described and the
real correct one too.
I'll get this straightened out ASAP later this evening.
Profit is like oxygen,
food, water, and blood for the body; they are
not the point of life, but without
them there is no life. —Jim Collins
& Jerry Poras—Built to Last
Edgar--"There is a product cast or steel, that can
be laggedon to the wall at the appropriate height/pre tread. You then bolt
your treads and risers to it. Anybody seen or dun anything like it?--
Yup I think all of the metal framing connector companies like Simpson et al
have pieces for that. We've used them to additionally secure treads that were
housed in a 3/4" thick stinger that had only a 7/16" inch deep plough
cut in to it for the treads.
--"Is it customary for a shop to understand how
to deal with this?"-- Yeah a good decent shop but there are some
hacks and idiots out there. Some mills just fabricate and never install so they
may not understand the continous-run-crown problem and as far as stairs are
concerned some basic beginning stair shops don't do curves well at all.
But as I stated above I think the continous-run-crown method is a poor design
and I think a real good shop will tell you that. (We certainly would). See my
earlier post replying to Redstaines.
I cannot Possibly imagine buying two, different width
mouldings, out of stock, Which will butt together perfectly.For my roof.
Neither can I
"Do not go where the path may lead, go
instead where there is no path and
leave a trail."-- Ralph Waldo Emerson
Joe,
My point in my earlier post was only that things are not always as they appear. Sitting in an architect's office many years ago looking at the details of a job, I pointed out to him that his drawing, depicting 2 identical crown moldings running along the plumb-cut dormer eave and up the rake with a single mitre cut, could not be built as drawn without custom molding work. He looked at me and said "Maybe you'd better learn how to use a compound mitre saw!"
I saw an article years ago in a trade magazine (FHB I think) showing how you could run the crown through a table saw, cut it into thin strips and laminate it back together in such a way that the planes would meet perfectly. Looked like an awful lot of work when a custom molding shop could do the same thing in solid stock, but goes to show you nothing is impossible. (The same technique can also be used to run moldings around curved walls & ceilings.)
Redstaines- "I just try to construct the image I
see in my head. Doesn't always work though......
Like trying to run a 5-step crown molding continuously along a dormer eave and
up the rake - an architect can draw it on paper, but try to do it on the jobsite
with a compound mitre saw. "--Good experienced architects don't
draw details like that on paper because they know its not practical and it's
geometrically impossible to do using the same exact crown profile. The good
designers and architects also realize that the proportional change in the size
of the crowns looks odd and incorrect too. The rake or verge crown looks shrunken
and dinky compared to the eave and in the case of a prominent gable end to a
sizable house it just plain old looks wrong. However tactfully, politely, and
humbly point out the technical problems and bad design issues of running crown
that way to an architect or designer you are working with and you can make a
friend for life.
Joes method
will work and we've done just that but when he says--"You
can probably buy profiled moldings with different widths. This would in all
likelihood bring you close to the required "fit", but you still may
have to do some work to get a good looking joint."-- I think well
maybe,... but not likely.
I thought that myself the first time I encountered the problem but after trying
to make it work with stock-off-the-shelf molding I ruled out ever trying to
do it that way again. It wasn't all to bad when I did it that way the first
time in that it was hard to see two stories up on an exterior eave and rake
with some impressive pine trees nearby ( and I was still young and learning).
However I would never try to make that work on an interior where it comes under
much closer scrutiny or do it that way again on an exterior for than matter.
In the two times since then when we have had to run crown level across an eave
and then up a rake we have milled the two crown molding profiles specifically
for conditions of the particular application (against my recommendations both
times).
I think most any specialty millshop should be able to accommodate the request
although they may ask you why? There are still in my mind two problems in using
that method or even the design idea of running crown continuously from the eave
through to the rake.
The proportional change design issue I first spoke of. The steeper the rake
the worse it looks too.
And it's cost prohibitive for the value achieved. Unless there is a good
deal of rake molding required the cost of the additional set of custom knives
and machine set up for such a short run of molding hardly seems worth it.
Especially since if it's a steep rake you're paying a lot of extra money for
a bad design. The second set of knives from a shops stand point is pretty
worthless too in that unless the same rake angle is repeated again on another
project those knives were a one shot deal.
We prefer the typical detail you see on most traditional colonial style homes
(NY & New England) where the the crown travels level around on the underside
of the "porkchop" on the gable end of a house and then returns back
in to the gable end wall. Any crown on the gable would then run from the return
on the plumb end of the porkchop (where the porkchop returned back in to the
gable wall) to the peak. The same cut is on both ends of the crown two so easier
to measure for and compute. Funny thing too is that the porkchop wrap-around
design I'm talking about looks more detailed, complicated, and adds more character
than the other method or running the crown continuously but it's actually much
much easier and doesn't require much math or trig at all. Anyone need a picture
to understand what I am talking about? If so let me know and I'll see if I can
find one of the detail and then post it.
As for interiors in addition to the the porkchop wrap-around method I just
described the good designs I seen have had a altogether different flatter molding
treatment planed for the gabled wall.
"Do not go where the path may lead, go
instead where there is no path and
leave a trail."-- Ralph Waldo Emerson
Jerrald,
View Image
I thought you might disagree with that Joe but my real-world, real-time empirical
experience of trying to pull stock crown off a rack in a yard and making it
work taught me it's not worth the trouble.
--"This is ~ 1/8" off from the calculations
of 4-1/4" needed on my page. If you were doing a rake with a 12/12 pitch
you could easily use these two profiles and make an almost prefect joint."--
Yeah for that pitch with those moldings but change the pitch and then the profiles
don't line up as perfect. Plus I think the whole technique just looks "architecturally
incorrect" but that's purely subjective on my part.
Also while your method works well enough and was just how I did back then (as
best as I can recall) I'm also trying to run a business that makes money and
the porkchop wrap-around design technique that I prefer is easier to teach,
accomplish, and as I mentioned earlier has more "character" and looks
better so I think it helps sell the projects at a higher value level too.
Different strokes for different folks I guess. I can however possibly envision
using the continous-run-crown design on some low sloped gables though. I might
not mind the look if the gable end was significantly wider that it was tall.
Profit is like oxygen,
food, water, and blood for the body; they are
not the point of life, but without
them there is no life. —Jim Collins
& Jerry Poras—Built to Last
Jerrald,
View Image
Yup I saw that Joe and I agree with you on that especially "you
still may have to do some work to get a good looking joint" &
where you add "the fact that this is an awkward joint
in both look and execution no matter how one approaches it."
And another thing that I really agree with you on even though I've said
"...the porkchop wrap-around design technique that I prefer is easier
to teach, accomplish, and ...." I really liked it when you said
Yeah I don't like the joint, and yeah it's hard to teach, but having carpenters
and craftsmen that understand how to do it (in case they had too) would be plus
and should be what we all strive for personally and with our staffs (when we
have them). But teaching the application of trig functions like sine and cosine
to Poles, Chezchs, and Guatemalans that are just learning to speak English can
be tough. It's tough enough to teach to a lot of English speaking tradespeople
too.
When I read "Ellis and Joyce" I (think)
I recognized you meant George Eliis and his book Modern
Practical Joinery: A Treatise on the Practice of Joiner's Work by Hand
but how many carpenters do you really know that would recognize that? How many
carpenters do you actually know that have the book? It's not many for sure.
It's unfortunate but true. Who's Joyce? I had no idea what book that would be.
Did you mean James Joyce, A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man? Was that
about carpentry?
I once worked with a carpenter that could do square roots in his head. What
I would give for just a few carpenters like that. I would love to have carpenters
that knew how to use and apply your
technique or tangent hand railing techniques in our case. But that not always
practical or realistic. Yeah it's something to strive and push for but it's
often a long way off down the road. Yeah I think it's easier to teach the porkchop
wrap-around design technique versus the continous-run-crown method. I guess
we just have to go along training in incremental steps.
This all relates to the end level concerns of why I started the discussion
Who
will build the future? What do we do about training and teaching this stuff?
Forums like this are fine for motivated self starters but what everybody else?
Profit is like oxygen,
food, water, and blood for the body; they are
not the point of life, but without
them there is no life. —Jim Collins
& Jerry Poras—Built to Last
Jerrald,
View Image
J Fusco -Ernest Joyce wrote a book ("The Encyclopedia
of Furniture Making") Well I don't have that book but maybe I should
too. I have to check it out. Thanks for the tip Joe.
"...have you though about hiring English speaking
ones?" Would love to but most of the new blood coming is are immigrants
and they tell their friends so the chain of referral builds like that. The same
as it always has been I guess, they're just coming from different countries
nowadays. When I first started in the trades all the crews I worked with were
either Swedes, Finns, or Italians. That's why I brought up the Who
will build the future? topic.
"...I guess I'm just a guy who has to know how and
why things work. . . It's just not good enough for me that I can do it. For
some it is though." I appreciate that sentiment and echo it to a
large degree too. I certainly wish there were more people out there that felt
that too.
Profit is like oxygen,
food, water, and blood for the body; they are
not the point of life, but without
them there is no life. —Jim Collins
& Jerry Poras—Built to Last
I think I know what you are talking about, but please post a picture.
Jerrald,
Well put.
The architect in question in my case has, in fact, turned out to be a good friend. I learned long ago that smug superiority gets no one very far. Many of the things I know about building I learned by doing it wrong the first time, and the same must be true for architects also. Most of the architects I have worked with have a lot to learn about the actual mechanics of jobsite construction, but are eager to learn when approached with some sensitivity.
I've always felt that a year or two 'residency' in framing and finish work should be part of the curriculum for architects. The same is true for GCs - I think drafting and architectural classes should be mandatory for licensing, but in Oregon (and California) anybody with a few hundred $$ to spare can become a GC -
Are you by any chance an architect?
Redstaines-"I learned long ago that smug superiority
gets no one very far. Many of the things I know about building I learned by
doing it wrong the first time,..." — Yeah me too. We must
have gone to the same school. I actually preach a philosophy of what I call
"getting stupid". The idea being to get some humility and keep you
mind open for other new and possible better solutions an answers. It's also
been called Zen Mind, Beginners Mind.
"Most of the architects
I have worked with have a lot to learn about the actual mechanics of jobsite
construction, but are eager to learn when approached with some sensitivity."
— That's what I was getting at earlier, total agreement here
I've always felt that a year or two 'residency' in framing
and finish work should be part of the curriculum for architects. The same
is true for GCs - I think drafting and architectural classes should be mandatory...
... Are you by any chance an architect? —
Nah, I'm not an architect but I have been seriously considering doing whatever's
necessary to become a certified interior designer as in A.S.I.D. I went to college
for Theatre Design & Technology a was and still am to a degree a scenic
artist, set and lighting designer and boy does all that help (the design, illustration,
and drafting of the ideas)
PS — I've got red stains on my hands today from mahogany dust is that
where you screename comes from?
Profit is like oxygen,
food, water, and blood for the body; they are
not the point of life, but without
them there is no life. —Jim Collins
& Jerry Poras—Built to Last
Actually Jerrald, the name Redstaines is a conglomeration of the name of my old const. co (Redwood Design & Const), and my last name. It was my business screen name from my now-defunct (thank God) AOL account.
Your posts are always a delight to read.
Roger Staines aka redstaines
Geez ya know I thought I might of discovered something there. Ya see up until today it been pretty hot and muggy so I pulled the lathe outside to work in the fresh air and at least catch a breeze. It didn't do much good and woodturning was pretty much a wet sweaty mess and the other day taking a shower at the end of the day I noticed these red stains (actually sort of orange) in the palm of my hands where I was gripping the tools and around my ankles. Wearing shorts it's where the lathe dust gather around the tops of my socks. I was blaming it all on the mahogany but I guess it could also have been the tannic acid from some oak I turned too tanning my skin. Was a good guess though don't you think?
Profit is like oxygen,
food, water, and blood for the body; they are
not the point of life, but without
them there is no life. —Jim Collins
& Jerry Poras—Built to Last
I watched Tv one time.There this Bob guy had a show,where they built a stair well ,with built up, curved plywood sills, 2 x 6 studs framed 5" on center to form a curved stairwell. There is a product cast or steel, that can be laggedon to the wall at the appropriate height/pre tread. You then bolt your treads and risers to it. Anybody seen or dun anything like it?
Are you turning 270 degrees with this stair?
When I build this type of stair, I take the idiots's approach:
Divide the total circumference of the radiused wall by the number of winders you have. This gives you the width of each winder at the widest point and also allows you to plot each riser and tread on the wall.
For every third riser or so, I build a platform at the proper height and then plot the intermediate risers on top of this platform and construct them like pie sections on top of my platform. This gives me some stability and reference points.
Depending on the code authority in your area, the winders usually have to be a minimum width at a point 12" from the narrowest part of each tread. (here it's 10" for winders and 7 1/2" for spirals). Then, there's always the headroom issue...
I know there a lot of guys out there who take a much more mathematical approach to questions like this, but it's easier for me to work problems out visually at the jobsite than in my office with a calculator. The first time I built a radius stair it took a lot of head scratching and fumbling before I worked out a proper way to build them, but they came out sturdy and symetrical in the end.
Hope I haven't muddied the waters for you.
Thanks for all your input,all of you.
My layout has been laquered to the concrete for a long time.I was hoping to stay away from stacked platforms or ledgers but i'm sure I'll use the K.I.S.S. method
(keep it simple stupid)
Now for the hard part,if I can figure out my digital camera,I'll post the finished product! Thanks again
P.S.our winder code is 10" min. tread @ 12" from wall,and no less than 6" tread @ wall.
Tablesaw-I would have been glad to help you out with your stair winder questions
had I seen it earlier. I'm not at all put off by the new forum system in fact
I prefer it. It's much faster, more reliable, and doesn't mess around and make
a mess of your HTML code the way the old system did. Problem was I took an extended
weekend with the Fourth of July Holiday to play softball, wiffle-ball, go bicycling,
and play with my new niece and nephew. There is life out there beyond these
online forums it turns out! However I also don't think I clearly understood
your problem the way you were articulating it in the first place.
You could have only helped your cause by figuring out your camera and posting
pictures of your actual conditions in the first place. Was something like this
what you meant by a "radiused turn" as
Redstaines explained "two runs of straight
stairs connected by a radius?"Or are we talking about something else?
View Image
I had and still have no real idea of exactly what you meant by "stepping-out"
the stringer from the wall so that drywall and a skirtboard slips between the
treads". I could interpret that a few different ways.
I'm also not sure what "consider these radiused
winders even though tread #s 1,2,6?,&14 are the only straight treads. All
others grow at the outside of the tread." means. "All
others grow at the outside of the tread."???? Huh lost me on that
one? I know it's tough using words to describe a 3d world so that's why I use
a camera so often nowadays. I now take tons of pictures, print them out, mark
them up, and then give them to my staff, the project managers, and the designers
I work with so we all understand each other and end up on the same page.
If you want to use the platform method that Redstaines described there is a
good article on that method on the JLC CD-ROM or for $5.00 on the JLC site entitled
FRAMING
A RADIUS STAIR GET THE LAYOUT RIGHT BY ROBERT THOMPSON (from the February
'93 issue of the magazine). Personally I not a big fan of the platform method
but if I had to I wouldn't rule it out. I like my treads housed in the stringers
when ever possible.
Best of luck.
"Do not go where the path may lead, go
instead where there is no path and
leave a trail."-- Ralph Waldo Emerson
Jerrald,
I'm heading back out to the jobsite soon,but in the meantime,chew on this.
My stairway was originally designed to be a "U" with a 3' x 6' landing dividing the two straight runs of stringers.In order to shorten the total run necessary to achieve this design(and gain living area above) I decided to go with the radius.Picture this---
from the main floor,you open the door and immediately step down to a 45"x 45" landing.(tread # 1) tread #2 is a parellel tread.tread # 3 begins the180 degree radius.the tread that is located in the center of what would have been the 3' x 6' landing is also a parallel tread(#6 or 7 i cant remember)Oh shoot, I need to do some drafting and scanning!
Tablesaw--ya still got me all confused. I think you'll need to photograph or draw it out. At least if we're not learning anything about stairs we're all learning an awful lot about crown molding cornice details.
Profit is like oxygen,
food, water, and blood for the body; they are
not the point of life, but without
them there is no life. —Jim Collins
& Jerry Poras—Built to Last
just a quick reply Jerrald,
(stepping out a stringer)
On a straight run of stairs,I attach a 2 x 4 to the wall(or 2x6)first.And then attach the stringer(aligning the bottom of both)this allows the passage of 5/8 sheetrock & 3/4skirtboard 'behind' the tread and riser.
Tablesaw- Okay now I understand that part of what your talking about. Yup sometimes
planning your post with more detail can help although sometimes that's still
a bust too. I tried that with Seeking
Railing Fabrication Ideas and I thought I was pretty detailed about it and
posted it both here and on Knots and went nowhere with it. Any ideas?. Over
in Knots I commented to RJ (Sgian Dubh) the same thing I said here regarding
"getting stupid and asking questions:
Just keep on asking questions and talking about the craft and I think it will
all come eventually. But I could still use a plan view to really figure out
what your doing and asking.
Profit is like oxygen,
food, water, and blood for the body; they are
not the point of life, but without
them there is no life. —Jim Collins
& Jerry Poras—Built to Last
Just after building a set of winders w/two radiuses, FHB had an article, I think about 3 years ago. I had pretty much reinvented their wheel as I remember, but I did a lot of headscratching and reading the code book, etc.
My method was this...calculated rise and run per usual; painted the subfloor with cheap white latex primer; laid the two radiuses out from their centerpoints (I was in an entry and had room, you could accomplish the same thing off site by making a template); framed the outside radius wall and used a story pole to tick off the risers; divided each radius equally for its corresponding runs and snapped chalk lines from radius center across those points and double checked tread widths; framed inside radius like any radius wall (except this one was stepped for an open bannister).
By doing the layout on the floor, and using the story pole, the rest was just carpentry. Tip: Spraying rattle can laquer over the chalk lines after the layout is confirmed, will protect them from traffic.
Finishing the UNDERSIDE of the stairway....now that was really fun
I am not sure, but I would say the rise and run will be figured the same . And A storypole will defintely help in this situation.
tablesaw this is from an old mind with a short memory.
The back wall is layed out 1 1/2" longer than the steps radius. Cut plywood plates (2 3/4" for the top and bottom), nail the studs to the plates and you have the inside wall frame. At the same time lean 5/8 sheetrock againist the living room walls. Recesse blocking into the wall where your trim board and stringer will be nailed into. Your stringer is a series of 2X4 blocks. After the sheetrock has leaned againist the wall a couple of days it will be curved enought to nail, screw and glue onto the wall. Lay out the back steps and install the trim board and stringer.
The front side is essentially the same except the top of the walls curve will be dictated by the toe boards. Use them to control the top outside wall. I think the radius is 6' 4" and all layouts begin from that focal point.
I hope this is helpful. If nothing else it may jump start your planning process.Good luck and let us know how it works out.
Charlie
Calculations are great, but I have found scribing and cutting cheap cardboard templates is a faster, and easier, no brain work kind of way to do to do this kind of thing.
Remember....... As woodworkers, What we struggle for is the illusion of perfection ..not perfection itself
not petrfection itself.
I like your way of thinking.I've recieved a lot of great input , but I think I need to plan my posts with more detail. I'm new here hope everybody will bear with me
Nice Quote!
THFXR--I like drawings myself but we'll do all three (calculations, drawings,
templates and sometimes even full sized mockups to do what we have to do. It
all depends on the situation. To create a curved railing for this one particular
project we did last year we had to template
the existing curved stair hall (4 photos) and then recreate
that turn in the shop for fabrication. Usually you like to fabricate the
railing at the same time as the stair is being fabricated but in this particular
instance it was a remodel so the stair was already extant. I used calculations
to figure the rough sizes of the oak I needed for the railing but to use calculations
to plot the turns would have been a sloppy mess and not have matched the real
whoops in the existing walls.( Finished
railing-next 10 photos)
Profit is like oxygen,
food, water, and blood for the body; they are
not the point of life, but without
them there is no life. —Jim Collins
& Jerry Poras—Built to Last