Does anyone here regularly use the framing square tables for anything anymore?
blue
Warning! Be cautious when taking any advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, some of it is viewed as boogerin and not consistent with views of those who prefer to overbuild everything…including their own egos
Additionally, don’t take any political advice from me. I’m just a parrot for the Republican talking points. I get all my news from Rush Limbaugh and Fox and Friends (they are funny…try them out)!
Replies
Blue,
I use the side cut of jack scale frequently to find the angle for sheathing cuts and also gable soffit that comes down over eyebrow returns. I prefab the gable barges w/soffit so I don’t have to scaffold up the exterior to install them. Knowing the soffit cut makes this easy with the common eyebrow cornice detail. From the pic of the 18/12 gable roof of yours I saw it looks like you prefab your barges too?
I rarely use the other scales but they are there if the calculator and the circular saw quit and I lose my rafter book. I have used the run/ft scale in the past for pencil calcs. It is fun and interesting to multiply fractions by decimals.
Mr Jalp
I had a feeling that you'd have a good use for that side cut table. I really haven't studied it much, but it does warrant another look.
The side cut table is just a scaled down version of numbers that both of us already know.
For instance, on that 5/12 roof that we discussed earlier, we both know that the unit length of that pitch is 13. Well surprise, surprise, the side cuts and therefore the valley cut of that equally pitched roof is....drum roll please.....13/12...mark the 13!
The valley cut of a 12/12 is 16.97/12...mark the 16.97.
The side cuts of a 9/12 is 15/12...mark the 15.
Getting the drift?
One other handy way of determineing the side cuts is to cut a compound bevel. That 5/12 cut on a 45 will produce the same 12/13 ratio.. is anyone surprised?
Please feel free to correct me on anything I'm saying in here. My actual and practical knowledge of this stuff is fading...I don't do nearly as much as I used to. In my "serious framing" days, I would've been able to recite the entire table, or some method of deriving the unit lengths, valley lengths, etc. I'm a little fuzzy and I don't have a square in here to do some quick proofs.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, some of it is viewed as boogerin and not consistent with views of those who prefer to overbuild everything...including their own egos
Additionally, don't take any political advice from me. I'm just a parrot for the Republican talking points. I get all my news from Rush Limbaugh and Fox and Friends (they are funny...try them out)!
Blue,
You know after reading all of these posts about roof cutting, framing tables etc.. I have come to the conclusion that I am going to cut the roof on our shop/office that we will build this winter (hopefully). I have cut very few roofs, a few gables on storage buildings and such, and sheds on sheds for livestock, but would really like to cut a hip roof onto our building.
I have only used trusses for roof framing on a large scale, so in terms of material does the cost of cutting a roof go up due to the upsize in lumber? Even if it is negligibly higher I would love to give it a try.
I am more a less a self taught carpenter, one year in trade school, and about 15 in the business, some field, alot in management, and the last 4 years of owning my own business doing everything from framing and drywall to concrete.
I guess I would like to try cutting a roof on my own place first, that way I don't need to worry about time albiet precious right now, but is it just easier to set trusses and go from there? If I cut it it will probably be a hip with a 5 or 6 pitch. I would also like to try to use the framing tables to do it.
Or I could eyeball it
Or should I just truss it?
ColeCole Dean
Dean Contracting
Cole, you need to follow your heart. You will be delighted when the final jack rafter is nailed in and you'll be able to look at your achievement forever (yours will stand forever...I only build them for a couple of hundred years....you gotta look out for the next generation) !
The question of value, relative to trusses vs conventional framing cannot be answered without knowing the spans. Large spans are almost impossible to frame economically if clear spanning is critical. If you don't mind posts, or interior bearing walls, then spans become significantly less costly to erect.
Since you are self taught, you might like to know that I cut my first unsupervised roof, with my carpenter book out there on the sawhorses. Theres no shame in that. I stuggled to hold the square properly and had to refer back to the book many times to orient my hands, the square, and the stock properly.
I did eventually get trained in roof construction with the Union of Brotherhood Detroit Joint Apprentice Carpenters School, but I had already mastered the basic roof framing techniques by then. Thankfully they taught me the more advanced things needed to take one unequaled pitched roofs.
My suggestion to you would be to practice your basic framing square techniques on a small scale hip roof. Frame a hip roof on a 4 x 8 sheet of plywood. Make it a 5/12, or a 6/12. Use 1x4 rafters, or even 2x4 rafters. Step it off, or use a calculator. Do both. Include an overhang of 6", with a heel of 2".
You will learn more from that simple exercise than all the talk in here. If you get stumped, stop back in and someone will lead you in the right direction.
This type of self teaching is an investment that I see very little of among our young proteges. Those who invest in themselves will reap the benefits. There is evidence that the vast majority of young carpenters don't bother investing in themselves....if they did, this place would be overrun with young enthusiastic learners. I would have devoured the information from a source like this when I was 20!
blue
Warning! Be cautious when taking any advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, some of it is viewed as boogerin and not consistent with views of those who prefer to overbuild everything...including their own egos
Additionally, don't take any political advice from me. I'm just a parrot for the Republican talking points. I get all my news from Rush Limbaugh and Fox and Friends (they are funny...try them out)!
Hey Blue,
For about the past three months, I've been sitting here at my computer just trolling for wisdom. At the old age of 26, I've abandoned the college degree career and have decided to do what makes me happy, working with my hands. This place definatley is a treasue trove of information. I have to concur with your belief that there is a definate lack of a younger generation (mine) that are willing to go out and learn on their own and make that investment. I guess my point in this slightly meandering post is that there are some of us you upstarts that are willing to go that extra mile, take the time and pay our dues, and seek out the information from the old timers.
SO Thank-you for posting and allowing people like me to pick your brain.
Jeremy
My pleasure Jeremy.
Guys like you are destined to be successful, and be able to do the carpentry long into their retirement. My advice to all youngsters is to protect your health...especially your back. Instead of forcing anything......figure out an easier way. If you follow the leads of most oldtimers, you'll end up learning very ineffecient methods and working much harder than you really need to.
My next suggestion is to question EVERY bit of conventional wisdom that you are exposed to. Some of it will be exactly right, but the process of questioning it will lead you to conclusions that you should understand...not just do. For instance, I've mentioned the guys that would call me a hack because I refuse to put bearing headers in spots where non bearing headers will suffice. I've learned to roll with the punches when I'm called out on stuff that stupid. You gotta have thick skin. I do, or did....I used to sand all my exterior pine joints with my calloused hands!
I know not everyone agrees with what I do and how I build, but that's okay. I'm very comfortable in my skin. It has been pointed out that how I say things affects how other interpret them...but I already know that too. I could use a healthy dose of How To Win Friends And Influence People in my carpentry discussions...but you know what? I don't really care. I'm just an old curmudgeon passing on the tidbits, because I love carpentry and I love carpenters. If someone objects, fine let them go do it their own way...I'm not angry and my the wood gods bless them. On the other hand, if young guys like you, like to get stuff done, then clean out them ears.
I've watched at least a thousand men walk away from my job. Every one of the thousand needed to stay a little longer. Some were welcome and others had to go. I know I had what it takes to hang with anyone and learn from them...especially in my youth.
Now, I don't really learn too much anymore..but hey..on this job, I learned three things. The rookie taught me two things: the cone ply cuts and how to properly use my chalkline (press in the handle to let out the string). I also learned the formula for arches from this site. I still don't know how to figure that cone layon...but it's done!
Thanks for the kind words.
blue
Warning! Be cautious when taking any advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, some of it is viewed as boogerin and not consistent with views of those who prefer to overbuild everything...including their own egos
Additionally, don't take any political advice from me. I'm just a parrot for the Republican talking points. I get all my news from Rush Limbaugh and Fox and Friends (they are funny...try them out)!
String, a digital level (quick to read angles) a cut list (length from point to point) and a rafter tail template get me perfect roof planes every time. I get in trouble with tables and calculators more often than not. Then again, my work is almost always cut up odd ball stuff that ties into or lay over other existing work.
Mark....thats about where I learned to carve the stuff in by eye.
Remember, in my earliest framing days, I worked all new. I was anal...I'd step off the rafters like I learned in school and in the book. Then, agravated because it would be off a 1/4" inch, I started mathematically figuring them. I remember doing the square root thing longhand!
Geezuz!
My first "bastard" hip was a calculating bonanza. It was weird....I had just been taught that lesson in apprentice school. I spent all day putting up a few rafters that I would do by coffee today....and I thought I was the cat's meow!
When I got into remodeling (the new market crashed in the early 80's due to 18% interest rates....yes...I said 18% interest rates...watch out kids!) I found that figuring things exact wasn't going to work....everything was out of level, out of plumb and sagging like crazy. I did a lay on a roof...and the existing roof had a 12" dip in it!
I learned to buzz the stuff without marking it on that one job! I had to...there wasn't any other way!
Now...I'm back to new....I am a calculating fool. But I can, and occasionall do, the string and plumbstick gig.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, some of it is viewed as boogerin and not consistent with views of those who prefer to overbuild everything...including their own egos
Additionally, don't take any political advice from me. I'm just a parrot for the Republican talking points. I get all my news from Rush Limbaugh and Fox and Friends (they are funny...try them out)!
This has nothing to do with the tables but it's just something I do with the framing square when you have a shed roof for example with a 5/12 pitch that dies onto a main roof with a 10/12 pitch.
Hold the square upside down and with 10" on the Tongue side and 12" on the Body of the square and then make a mark at 5" on the Tongue and mark the 12" on the Body now draw a line straight through from the 12" mark and through the 5" mark and that will give you your angle for cutting your last rafter and rakes.
Joe Carola
Framer,
That is the best tip I've seen in a while. Very much appreciated.
Jon Blakemore
Joe, I know that technique....but I always have to experiment and flip the square around several times to get the right line. Maybe I'll print out your pic and hang in on my wall for a while...absorbing the proper technique....thanks.
Now..I hope you, or someone else with a regular speed square will instruct me on how to do the same procedure with that tool, I'll appreciate it. I'm sure it's possible.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Blue,
If you take the compliment of your pitch angle for example I used a 5/12 pitch and a 10/12 pitch and mark those two angles until they intersect at that point put your speedsquares pivit point there and slid it to the 5/12 angle and that will be your angle but you have to transfer that angle to the top of the rafter or rake.
5/12 - 22.62°
Compliment - 67.38°
10/12 pitch - 39.81°
Compliment - 50.19°
Joe Carola
Blue, Framer has it all wrong.
The correct procedure using a speed square is to throw if into the woods, and when your helper goes to pick it up, have him scribe the angle.
Jon Blakemore
Jon, you might be right.
I seriously doubt that you could quickly and accurately produce a layout line using such a small scale tool on a long layout line like that. Most of those type layout lines are very long...especially in the lower pitched roofs. A small layout tool like that seems about as accurate as simply eyeballing it in and cutting it twice like I do.
Actualy though, I usually flip the rafter upside down and use a very simple scribeing method (no squares needed) to mark the rafter correct the first time.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Blue, I don't know why the first time I posted the drawing using the speedsquare for the shed roof angle in BMP but I'll post it again here.
There's also another situation we come across all the time for example with a Gable roof using an 8/12 pitch when the Main Rafter span is lets say 26" and we have a little bump out with the span of 16' or it can be a situation on an existing house where you extend the rafters and nail a plate on the back side of the existing roof you have to cut the angle on the bottom of the Rafter or the Rake.
I would just cut a little piece of whatever size rafter I was using with an 8/12 plumbcut for a pattern and mark the plumbcut for example on the right side of the pattern on the rafter and then flip the pattern over holding the pattern plumbcut on the plumbcut you scribed on the rafter and marking the top of the pattern.
To get this angle using a Speedsquare all you have to do is draw and 8/12 plumbcut and and without removing the Speedsquare just pivot the Speedsquare until the 8 common mark hits the plumbcut and just mark the other side of the Speedsquare and that's your angle.
Joe Carola
A trick I like with the framing square is to use it for laying out scale drawings on a scrap of plywood so I can see what I'm doing. Inch-to-the-foot scale is super easy to do and one side of the square is graduated in 12ths of an inch for exactly that reason - use the 12ths to represent inch portion of dimensions.
I always do this for intersecting unequal pitch roofs. The hip and valley angles are not 45 degrees so the easiest way to see the sidecuts of cheek cuts is to draw it out full size. First use the square to make a scale drawing that will give you the angle of the hip to the major and minor commons and the ridge. Then, using those lines as a set of centrelines, you can draw in the hip and rafter stock full size. Measure off the sidecut of major and minor jack cheek cuts and layout will be easy. Yes it can all be calculated but there is nothing like being able to see it in front of you.
WallyLignum est bonum.
Sly,
I was going to post something about the 12th scale because about 2 years ago I franmed a roof and I laid it out on a piece of plywood using the 12th scale for the first time and as you described it gives you feet and inches and when I checked it with my calculator It was with a 1/4". This is the roof I laid out with it.
http://www.sirajfamily.com/construction/jcarolla/framing/
Joe Carola
Last year I had to do an unequal pitch roof over an outdoor patio that was to remain exposed from below. Therefore the cheek cuts had to be tight and clean. I used the full scale layout method and they fit nicely indeed. The occasional one that had a gap was touched up with a power plane and then fastened into place with 3" galv finish nails through pilot holes in the rafter. Rafter stock was select 2x10 with all stamps sanded off. The 2x4 strapping to carry the metal roof was also sanded and selected for good appearance from below. I had an apprentice running a belt sander for 2 days prepping for this. Hips were 8" x 14" x 28' D. fir if I remember rightly.
The other thing I was able to use my full size drawing for was to find the rafter centres for the minor roof. The major jacks were set at 24" o/c but I knew that the minor jacks would be at a narrower centre if they were to intersect the hip at the same points as the majors. Although this is not difficult to calculate, there was no need because my full size drawing already showed it, I directly measured the jack centres.
My calculator (regular scientific) remains in my pouch as I often like to check things, but the old methods are not to be sneezed at.
WallyLignum est bonum.
Wow!
Nice ceiling!
I haven't framed a roof in years, and all this talk about framing square tables is making my head hurt.
I think I'll stick to crown moulding. Its easier and lighter to work with.
Very nice rough frame "finish" roof Wally!
Knowing how to technically figure the sidecuts is critical on these, but using scaled systems work just as well too. There's always more than one way to skin a cat.
I wouldn't be eyeballing that roof system, but I also wouldn't let anyone use a teensy weensie speed square either!
I noticed that you used heel blocks instead of birsdmouths. What is preventing that canopy from uplift?
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Blue,
Re: heel blocks and uplift, good question! The architect didn't want the beams to be at different heights and so specified heel blocks. I asked about using metal strap anchors but was turned down on appearance grounds again. The engineer didn't seem concerned because "it isn't finished space below". The hip is lagged into the beams below and the common rafters are hangered to a bolted ledger. I made sure that each rafter had six 3" toenails into the heel block, and there are another 6 nails holding the heel block into the beams. To be fair, we are well out of the hurricane and seismic belts, but this still seemed like a poor practice to me.
I don't even bother to calculate sidecuts and shortenings on these roofs, it is quicker to get them off the scale drawing. I do calculate common rafter line lengths, hip line length, valley line length, overhang line length, difference in jacks, plate height difference, etc. And I like to do it all with regular scientific calc. Construction Master still seems like cheating somehow. I was taught to do it from first principles and am still mistrustful of derived values at the touch of a button.
Wally
Wally
Lignum est bonum.
Sly, in the olden days the guys used to figure their rafters using that twelvth scale. I gotta laugh becuase my old partner Forest used a square for twnety years and never knew there was that scale..or the tenth scale on his square! Personally, I hate squares with different scales...but I understand how/why some use them. I use my square for a lot more than rafter cuts (rafter cuts are by far the minority use for me) and the mental juggling is too anoying when I'm working the square using fractions. I tend to memorize the "picture" of the point on the scale that I'm trying to duplicate and if I switch scales, my thought process goes haywire forcing me to think in terms of numbers rather than to spots on a scale.
I am curious about how you create the hip angle drawing. I used to do a lot of scale drawings similar to what you're describing...I find it to be a fast simple way to get measurements and angles too, but I don't understand how your getting your sidecuts from what you've described. I think you skipped that step. Can you explain it please?
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Blue,
If you have a Bastard Hip with an 8/12 pitch and a 10/12 Pitch draw an 8" x 10" rectangle and draw the Hypontenuse line and that's your hip angle and all of your cheek cuts for the hip and jacks.
With the 12ths scale you layout the rund for both pitches and draw the Hypotenuse and that gives you the same thing. You can check the angles regretfully with your Speedsquare..........;-)
Joe Carola
Joe...thats so friggin simple...I wonder why I've never thought about it! Thanks. Now I'm going to have to do some ratio and math work to equate it to other areas of rafter framing.
Okay...now lets get started on my bastard ply cuts lesson...
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Blue,
It seems a bit odd but what I use is two drawings in one: a scale drawing using the 12ths scale on the square like Joe posted, and then I overlay that one with full size depictions of the hip, ridge and jack stock. Roofs are all about proportioning triangles, and despite the scale, the angles stay the same.
First mark off the minor run, major run, ridge and roof projections, and connect them to get hip run (as Joe's drawing showed). Now you know the proportions and angles of the two triangle systems for this roof.
So now you 'zoom in' on the angle where the jacks run into the hip (or valley). (See fig 1 attached). Draw in lines to represent major and minor jacks intersecting the hip. These will be considered the centrelines of the jack stock. Now draw in the edges of the hip and the jacks in actual full size dimensions; i.e., if you are using 2x stock for jack rafters, draw a line 3/4" either side of the jack centreline. If you measure directly along the major jack centreline from where it meets the hip centreline to the face of the hip stock, that will be the amount you shorten the major jack from its theoretical length.
Plus you can measure along the face of the hip stock from the jack centreline to jack edge to find the correct sidecut for the jack. Repeat for the minor jacks.
Now draw a second minor jack, observing the specified on-centre spacing, 16" or 24" or whatever. Then draw a second major jack so that its centreline cuts the hip centreline at the same point as the major. You can then measure directly the major jack spacing - it should be smaller than the minor jack spacing.
Sorry about the poor sketch and scan. I still haven't got around to learning CAD. I think Joe explained it but hope this helps.
Wally
Lignum est bonum.
I can cut a whole roof/a contractor calculator and mail it to you
Blue,
I had to study my square to form a reply. And just because I understand the original function of the rafter scales does not mean remember out how they were derived, either. I have used all the scales found on the framing square with the exception of the “side cut of hip†scale. The modern circular saw has been around longer than I have and has made this scale unused by me.
I can confirm the side cut of jacks method you wrote. It is easy to understand and works well.
The side cuts of the hip as you explain is in slight error because the triangle you use is found in the plane of the roof, which is not in the same plane as the top of a non-backed hip rafter. If the hip was beveled to plane then the square will mark the correct angles as you explain on those/that planes/plane.
The squares I use all use an understood 12†as one side of the given triangle for the scales. I have seen other squares with two numbered scales where they try to use only whole numbers and 12 is not always one of them.
From the pics of the 18/12-roof frame you are currently building I would have to say your serious framing days are still present. I am with you on your lack of recommendation of a good roof-framing book. I own a fairly good library on the subject and my favorite is still the “Swanson’s Blue Bookâ€, and it’s pretty miserable. But it does not confuse the readers with any unnecessary “Hip-Drop†explanations. All of the others do. So it is my favorite. The book I remember having one of the best explanations of roof math was my 8th grade math textbook. It is followed in importance by my 10th grade geometry textbook. The math of slopes (8th) and creating geometric forms (10th) is how I learned. After that I could read the rafter books and sort of understand them.
Anyway, if you are going to tout the Framing Square as adamantly as you seem too, then using the scales is probably worth learning, and teaching. They may give you quicker framing solutions to an occasional task. But in reality they have been outdated by the circular saw.
Another thing I think that is worth mentioning is that the framing square is much older than the circular saw. That was all I had to be told to understand what the purpose of the scales were for.
Regards, Mr Jalp
The framing square has a lot to offer like you said with a 5/12 pitch the unit length is 13" so you mark the 13" for your sidecut. If you hold the square the same way on a sheat of plywood but mark the 12" side that will give you your plywood cut for your hip or valley.
The numbers are right there on the square that's why it's good to teach how to lay out a rafter with the framing square for example you can create a small little Triangle Hip roof using a 12" run with the 13" mark on the square for the 5/12 Rafter Length the 17.69" Hypotenuse for the Hip. Now draw that Triangle and it would also be your Plywood Cut.
The biggest problem that I've seen for people was the understanding of 1' of Horizontal Run and 5" of Rise. When laying it out on a rafter on the horses from what I've seen over the years that is was confusing to a lot of people so for example if I had a 10'5" run I just stepped off the rafter 10 times marking the 5" and 12" like a stringer and then adding the 5" with no ridge deduction and cut two rafters and brought them inside and laid them down on top of the shoe with all the marks facing us and tacked them into the gable end wall.
When they look at the 12" level mark and the 5" rise mark stepping it 10 times and then adding the 5" level not along the top of the rafter they can visualize it better.
This is something that I've done when someone couldn't understand and when they see it on the wall for some reason it clicks.
Joe Carola
Edited 11/5/2004 6:48 am ET by Framer
Gosh, is it just me? I use them every time I cut a roof. What's everybody else doing, trig? Is there some secret way I don't know about? Come'on, tell me,... I'll be your best friend!
Construction Master calculator.
Eliminates most of the thinking- just punch in the right numbers.
I asked this in another thread that I started, but nobody gave an answer.
What reference materials - books, videos, dvds, etc. - would folks recommend on roof framing?
Thanks.
MikeVB
Mike, every time anyone asks me about which books to learn from, I always think back to the most important resource that I remember. Ironically, it wasn't a carpenter, nor a construction book at all! It was an Architects Book!
Go to a college bookstore and find one that suits your tastes...it'll be money well spent.
I'd recommend a framers book, or a carpenter's book, but I don't have any.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, some of it is viewed as boogerin and not consistent with views of those who prefer to overbuild everything...including their own egos
Additionally, don't take any political advice from me. I'm just a parrot for the Republican talking points. I get all my news from Rush Limbaugh and Fox and Friends (they are funny...try them out)!
I use a construction master IV and always check my results against my Riecher full length framing book.
If it is within 1/8" , I go for it if not recalculate.
I use the square to figgr the shething cuts but never realized the info was on the tables!!
the rest of the stuff on there is stuff anyone with a basic understanting of geometry can figure out.
Mr T
I can't afford to be affordable anymore
Well it sounds like no one really uses all those table measurements anymore eh MR T?
Those tables seem complicated, but I've always felt that the space could be better put to use. If they carved in the directions to step off a rafter, like Joe describes, I think it would be better and more carpenters would have a better understanding of the geometric principle of roof and stair framing.
I should go pull out my original framing square and look at the tables....if my memory serves me..they had a brace table, board foot table, all the rafter stuff. I like my homeowners square....it had a table on it to tell me what size pilot hole to drill for each drill size. I've used that more than I ever used the other table.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, some of it is viewed as boogerin and not consistent with views of those who prefer to overbuild everything...including their own egos
Additionally, don't take any political advice from me. I'm just a parrot for the Republican talking points. I get all my news from Rush Limbaugh and Fox and Friends (they are funny...try them out)!
and the octogan table too.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
Oh yeah....that octogon table!
My memory of that is fading...but I do remember having to use that octogon table in carpentry school and layout an octogon. I think we had to use dividers or something...maybe trammel points?
I don't know..
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, some of it is viewed as boogerin and not consistent with views of those who prefer to overbuild everything...including their own egos
Additionally, don't take any political advice from me. I'm just a parrot for the Republican talking points. I get all my news from Rush Limbaugh and Fox and Friends (they are funny...try them out)!
Dividers is right, not too many framers carry them around..LOL
And don't forget the nifty, nail file..er, I mean the 100ths scale.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
That 100ths scale is a beaut!
One thing they missed...the 19.2 difference in jacks!
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, some of it is viewed as boogerin and not consistent with views of those who prefer to overbuild everything...including their own egos
Additionally, don't take any political advice from me. I'm just a parrot for the Republican talking points. I get all my news from Rush Limbaugh and Fox and Friends (they are funny...try them out)!
Can anyone explain how to use the octagon table? It is lost in the dim depths of fading memory. Like Blue I learnt it once in trade school but no longer remember.
WallyLignum est bonum.
The Octagon table is for when you have seven friends over for eats or Poker.
The square table is for 4 people......
Mr T
I can't afford to be affordable anymore
I could , but then I'd have to kill ya.
Actually, I gotta get off to work...tonite I will try to get back to this...there are many easier ways, but the Sq. is the handy dandy show off way..LOL
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
Sly,
This link is to a thread with a couple drawings I made a while back about using the Octagon Scale for a 4x4 to make a Octagon post to nail rafters into.
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=36653.15
Joe Carola
Thanks Joe. I know how to do it by math but there's a quicker way!
WallyLignum est bonum.
Did you click on the attachment to see the drawing using the Octagon Scale with the framing square?
Joe Carola
Yep, sure did. I tinkered around with it today just to set it in my mind. Funny, I can do it all via algebra and calculator but sometimes forget to just get out the compasses.
WallyLignum est bonum.
I see Joe told ya that way, and another. Here's what I do. Draw yer square. X to locate center. set dividers to the distance from a corner to the center. Strike a mark from say NW corner to NE along the edge, now walk off that distance like that till all four edges have 2 tick marks..connect the ticks at a 45 angle and there ya go.
IOW's just use that dimension from all four corners twice.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
Blue,
I wouldn't say regularly anymore as I'm currently in another line of work. However, My dad was in the Navy and that's where he learned how to use a framing square. As a helper I wasn't allowed to carry a " Slow Square". I can use the tables and have always wondered how guys could just ignore them. they are a huge help.
For what it's worth, I haven't swung a hammer for a living since early 2002. But, I still get calls from friends who need help with complicated roofs. i'm amazed at how few people know how to work that square.
Thats what I'm talkin about Robert! Your dad and I are on the same page.
If the young guys learn how to use the square then decide to use a speed square...fine. But I'm not letting the apprentices start out with a speed square and skip their framing square learning...no way...no how!
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, some of it is viewed as boogerin and not consistent with views of those who prefer to overbuild everything...including their own egos
Additionally, don't take any political advice from me. I'm just a parrot for the Republican talking points. I get all my news from Rush Limbaugh and Fox and Friends (they are funny...try them out)!
I'm glad I didn't take trig..
How do you get those calculations on a framing square? On the speed square?
blue
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
I didn't take Trig either. I just bought this Construction Master Trig two years ago and I've been playing with it ever since.
The speesquare is good just to tell you what your angles are once you draw your Triangles.
What helps me understand Roof Framing is creating all these Triangles because that's really what Roof Framing is Triangles.
With the framing square once you have your plan view drawing like the one I did above with your Hip Run and your 8/12 and 10/12 Common Run and cheek cut angles now you need your rise. Once you've got your rise with all of your runs set the square on the 12th scale draw a line and mark your rise then come over on the bottom and mark your hip run and then draw the Hypotenuse and that will be your Hip length and plumb and level cut.
Your 10/12 Run and your 8/12 Common length is your Plywood Cut and the Hypotenuse on that is your Hip Length.
Sorry Blue but my 6 year old Joey wants to wrestle. I'll check back in a little while.
Joe Carola
Joe,
Just out of interest I see you have two different hip drops for the same hip i.e. 1/4" and 7/16".
So which one do you pick in practical terms or do you back the hip off different each side?
Don't think I ever saw a bastard hip here let alone cut one......
David Lloyd
You'll always have two different hip drops or backing bevels with a Bastard Hip because of the two different pitches. You can bevel the top on both sides or take the average between the two drops which would be about 5/16" but that wouldn't really plane the tops in to good. You can drop the seatcut on the lower pitch side so it planes in and then cut the bevel on the higher pitched side so it planes in. Or you can slide the hip off center towards the lower pitch side.
I would bevel one side like I did in this picture here.
David, Here's a link to a discussion we had on all this last year. Brace yourself it's a long one.
http://forums.jlconline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15382&page=1&pp=15&highlight=Backing+Bastard+Hips
Here's another good discussion.
http://forums.jlconline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15362&page=1&pp=15&highlight=bASTARD+Equal+Overhang+Runs
Joe Carola
Edited 11/14/2004 3:03 pm ET by Framer
Dave,
Here is a pic of a bastard hip we put in about 3 weeks ago. The beveled side is the 10-12 side and the other is the 6-12 side
http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/5546331/71047247.jpg