HI all.
I’ve been asked to build some free standing walls 9’6″ or so in a church/community hall building. I’m thinking of 2×10 plates with 2×4 studs on either side and plywood gussets/braces to hold it together along with some threaded rod which can be tightend from the basement which has a dropped ceiling.
Anyone have experience with this? How high up does said threaded rod need to go? thanks in advance!
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Replies
Consider this a bump. That is a tall wall to freestand, any chance of going full height every 6 feet or so? Is there any corners that would help stiffen it?
We would build this wall out of 6" steel studs and use a 2 x 5 tube steel post with a plate base that bolts to the floor. The post is tightened to the floor and does not have to be perfectly plumb. Screw a stud to the posts.
Even if you use wood, we always run a bead of addhesive on the floor and set the rock in it. This will stiffen things even more.
Mike
Small wheel turn by the fire and rod, big wheel turn by the grace of god.
Sounds like a good plan. The simplest construction would be with the rod drilled through the top plate.
How about cutting through the floor near each end, lapping a couple of 2x6s against a floor joist, and solid-blocking either side of them?
AitchKay
I'm not comfortable with free-standing walls; it's far too easy to make a sway factory.
Naturally, this all depends on the length of the free-standing part. Every corner is an opportunity for adding stiffness - I'm sure you've seen those wavy, wandering masonry walls. Those little bends are there to address this very issue.
Thickening the walls, as you have suggested, is a good idea. Another approach would be to get some T shaped brackets fabricated that would screw into the floor joists below and into the studs at both ends of the wall.
Second steel studs. I've been watching the union boys build one at a hospital I'm working at. Now most of them did have a ceiling added later, and they didn't do anything special with the party walls that didn't, so I imagine that enough ceilings were put in to keep everything good and stiff when it all tied together (great moments in engineering). I think your on the right track with the posts.
unless there are intersecting walls to stiffen the partition walls, they are usually tied to something above, usually with a couple studs in a V formation. Maybe they threw them up before the ceiling went in. Very rare (and wrong) to see partition commercial walls with no support.
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I thought that sounded odd also, especially in a hospital. Usually hospital walls that do not reach the structure are braced 4' cc. and typical office walls 8' max.
Intersecting walls do count as a brace, as you indicated. Mike
Small wheel turn by the fire and rod, big wheel turn by the grace of god.
there was a thread about this a while ago.
someone had a great idea. IIRC, his suggestion was to stick frame the wall, but clad the bottom 12" (?) with plywood, then fill with concrete. when the concrete sets, remove the plywood and sheetrock the wall.
but this might have been in a warehouse with a concrete floor- it sounds like you're dealing with a framed floor, so then you'd have to consider the weight of the concrete.
I don't think the crete load would help half as much as using the wallbolts in the center of the plates to make it a torsion box with compression and tension in opposition to each other.If the design can incorporate a pillaster or right angle wall to this, it would also be a great help.
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pillaster or right angle wall
I'll second that, and add buttress to the list!View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
with all those pews in church, I'd think they already have enough butt rest
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
=)View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
They built some rolling display walls where I worked. They weighted the bottoms of the roughly 12x7 walls with several hundred pounds of concrete block.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
With wood, 4' - 6'8" - 8' OC, put a stud to stud block at the bottom and at top face 8'.
Those studs will have to be turned 90* to parallel the plate.
Lag thru the bottom block and plate into a floor joist.
Add a 1/4 or better OSB skin covering that stud-block box on both sides. Use lots of 6d nails or glue.
With steel studs, add plate track top and bottom, put a 2x4 in the bottom track, lag it, and skin with 22 guage or better.
You can use the threaded rod to the basement if you add 'tween joist blocking where needed for the rod.
SamT
A Pragmatic Classical Liberal, aka Libertarian.
I'm always right!
Except when I'm not.
Thanks all for replies. I'm going to stick with wood,, I have doubts of partition wall steel studs available,, but am probably just scared to jump off that cliff.
Sam-
Those studs will have to be turned 90* to parallel the plate.
So 90* to how we usually frame up a wall??? Why?? Why not have them in as usual,, with a 10" plate,, and have blocking added between or even laminated onto the sides as well??
Oh wouldn't a picture be worth a thousand words eh?
dave
So 90* to how we usually frame up a wall??? Why??
So the plywood skins of those boxes are thru-bolted to the floor via the crossblock at the bottom. I shoulda added to glue and nail these connections.
See also Piffin's #9 post re torsion boxes. This be them.SamTA Pragmatic Classical Liberal, aka Libertarian.
I'm always right! Except when I'm not.
If I read you post correctly you are essentially building a wall with wide top and bottom plates and putting 2x4's on either edge to build essentially two framed walls which will become one thick wall when sheathed? Intuitively I think the biggest issue will be lateral movement which can be overcome by skinning alayer of plywood on the inside face of the 2 x4's on each side and then joining then bracing between the interior faces of plywood about every 4' or so.
Rather than use 2x4s and plywood like that, it might work out better to use pieces of I-joist.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
Thanks all,, I'm going to try a 2x10 upper and lower plate system, with blocking and 3/8" plywood inner structure to build a torsion box. They will get bolted either into the existing joists, or into blocking between for the ones that run parellel to the joists. I'll have to remember the camera,, so I can share.
If anyone has a picture of one they've done,, please post.
BTW, the ceiling is too high to provide adequate bracing,, and would look awful.
A couple of hours on the first wall will tell if the system will work or not.
Thanks for ALL the replies.
dave
I didn't read all the previous replies so forgive me if I repeat.
Making the wall thick, like you say, 2 x 8 or 2 x 10 is a good idea. To keep the bottom plate from rocking I'd shim it on either side. I'd cut some strips of ¼" luaun about 1" wide and place them under the bottom plate. Make them flush with the outer edges of the plate, with a hollow gap between. Use only one strip thick. Then when securing the bottom plate to the floor, use heavy fasteners such as lag screws, but place them about an inch in from either side, not down the centerline.
Then use ½" or so plywood under the dywall, gluing and nailing it to the bottom plate and the lower part of the studs. This will tie the studs to the bottom plate, which, using the technique above, will be secured fast to the floor.
I did a freestanding wall once by bolting the studs to the joists of the floor before installing the plywood subfloor. I believe I used two bolts per stud, one high on the joist and one low. There wasn't a bottom plate, the studs stuck up through the subfoor. I installed blocking flush to the floor between each stud where the bottom plate normally would have gone.
I did a freestanding wall once by bolting the studs to the joists of the floor before installing the plywood subfloor. I believe I used two bolts per stud, one high on the joist and one low. There wasn't a bottom plate, the studs stuck up through the subfoor. I installed blocking flush to the floor between each stud where the bottom plate normally would have gone.
excellent reply. All I would add is to beef up the floor joist with blocking, and possibly doubling it, in that situation, since the torque or leverage from the 9'6" wall would be pretty extreme if pressure was applied toward the top of the wall.View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Hi all. Quick update. Some of the freestanding walls were tied to exterior walls,, and I had three "loose" ends. I used 2x10 plates, 2x4 studs each side,, (crowns in) double nailed each stud and added a screw to each (3 1/2) I also ran two lengths of threaded rod,, one complete height threw to the bottom of the floor joist, one next joist in, but only half height. I also had 4 lags at the end of each "loose" end of the free standers. I also added several stud bays of salvaged plywood between studs. There was blocking and bracing where needed.
I had to shim plumb but little. They all stood plumb! The real stiffener was when I glued the end 2 sheets (vertical standing) of drywall! Once the drywall was on,, each stands good and stiff. Thanks for all your support. :-)
dave
Thanks for getting back with us all. We can play "What If?" all we want, but we don't really gain all that much until we hear about how the final "What" performed in the end.Good to know it all worked.AitchKay
Everybody is happy. Especially me. Cuz I'm the primary who's going to notice these things. I'm really happy with the job. I'd post a pic,,but am worried it might be too large.
Aww heck,, lets throw caution to the wind. the photo is from the projection booth window.. I pulled back with the cam to add a "border" Lets see what it looks like?
Sorry if it's too big.
dave
Came through just fine for me. Looks shipshape.TTFN, gotta go to bed.AitchKay
Thought I'd post a couple more. Need to take my cam on site again,, maybe once the paint is on.
d
Oops,,the pic of the hall was too big,, I'll try again,,
BTW,, I did NOT shingle the gable end or the porch roof. The contractor that bought an flipped it did,, and he nailed them on with brads. Sigh,, work for me in 10 years or so..
I also did glass block for the first time,, which was awesome,, until the last two courses, then it got a little out of hand. The HO works in movies as a set designer,, so all his stuff is from movie sets. He's been sitting on the glass blocks for some 15 years. The kitchen is from a movie,, is motor bike was the star of a movie called "one week" And he has stacks and stacks of posters,, pictures etc all from movies. Met the guy cuz he had a 72 ford half ton, and I was driving a 73 chev half ton. Hit it off and been best buddies ever since. I wouldn't want to live in the space I created that he bought (echo) , but it'll work good for him and his gal.
cheers,
dave
An old timer told me to hold of bracing walls untill the second day as gravity will do most of the plumbing for you. Can't say I ever tested that theory though as I've seen too many walls blown over up here in the great NW....interesting subject and thanks for the update. Looks good from my house!
Ryder,
Gravity isn't just a good idea, it's the LAW!
-giggles-