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freestanding stringerless spiral stair

riverman | Posted in Photo Gallery on March 2, 2006 12:24pm

Over the years I have built several freestanding spiral stairs. The usual inside and outside laminated stringers. This client wanted something more open looking and left it pretty much up to me how I ended up with the intended results. When I first looked at the site it left me with a feeling of dread, as the framed in opening was way too small to build anything functional. The stairs was to service a third floor loft area with a spectacular view of the harbor. My guess is the loft area was an afterthought and the framer was not into creative solutions since the initial opening was a scant 36 x 44 inches, maybe enough space for a ships ladder. I managed to talk the builder into increasing the opening to 46 x 84 inches. Still not enough but about the best that could be had after the fact. To further complicate the project, because of my schedule I couldn’t get started for another 8 months. In that time span the owners moved in, carpeted the second floor and installed a cork finish floor in the third floor loft, fully furnished and occupied. I started out making full sized templates and story poles realizing I didn’t have much wiggle room for mistakes during the install. Once I was back at the shop I proceed to layout the unit full scale, none of my conventional methods worked, simply not enough tread width or to steep to be safe to use. In the end, in order to gain a little extra tread width I settled upon half of an ellipse as opposed to the usual half circle layout. The end result was a very small comfortable to use staircase that fit into the setting nicely.

Treads are birdseye maple ends/carpet center/painted undersides. Hard maple raillings with Birdseye maple balcony caps.

Photo’s of completed stairs


Edited 3/1/2006 4:35 pm ET by riverman

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Replies

  1. riverman | Mar 02, 2006 12:28am | #1

    Detail photo's of birdseye/painted treads and underside view of treads.

    1. PADDYDAHAT | Mar 05, 2006 08:24am | #68

      I am just an old cabinetmaker from " knots" who is in trouble with his retirement shop (see block basement shop?). I have been here before -for 40 years- I am the guy who hired the architect, the engineer and the GC and tried to not let the GC eat my lunch or the sub's. yet still get it done. I have seen some very smart work but your staircase  is really outstanding and I truly understand the sensitivity of a residential job vs. commercial. My largest commercial scope was unfortunately the technology and engineering for 8 floors of tower 1 WTC. (93-100) I lost a lot of friends.

      You stair has a fit and finish-forget the engineering- that sparkles. I HOPE the client appreciated the effort. all the best, Pat

  2. riverman | Mar 02, 2006 12:32am | #2

    Third floor balcony, glass panels, upper newel and duck bill rail return. I added a bookcase on the back end of the left hand balcony rail. The front half is stepped back allowing the rail to climb over onto the floor, gaining 3 inches in width. The duck head or duck bill rail return is something I stumbled upon as I attempted to make the best of a bad situation, as in, attaching the rail to the newel in a code approved manner without looking like another off the shelf home depot rail fitting.

    1. DanT | Mar 02, 2006 12:56am | #4

      Ahhh, for one week to have your ability!   Nice stuff!  DanT

    2. stinger | Mar 02, 2006 01:35am | #5

      All I can say is, WOW!

      Can you tell us some of the structural side, like how you built in the strength and rigidity needed?

    3. Stilletto | Mar 02, 2006 01:42am | #6

      How much did all that birdseye stock cost you?  I just made a 3'x3' picture frame of the big house with walnut stripes and it was $100.  Great work and good taste with the birdseye.

      1. riverman | Mar 02, 2006 03:40am | #14

        How much did all that birdseye stock cost you?I live where the stuff grows and buy it by the trailer load so for me it's not all that bad if you don't factor in the time it takes to find it. This project used about $200 of the really nice stuff.

        1. Stilletto | Mar 02, 2006 03:46am | #15

          Well next time you pick up a trailer load keep me in mind.

          1. jimblodgett | Mar 02, 2006 03:56am | #16

            Beautiful, Armin.

            Hey, is that one room the entire third floor?  You have any photos of the view from up there?Tipi, Tipi, Tipi!

          2. riverman | Mar 02, 2006 04:37am | #18

            Hey, is that one room the entire third floor? You have any photos of the view from up there?It's one big room, my guess is 12 x 30 full 8 ft. ceiling. No I don't have a view photo, looks to me you can see about 10 miles of shoreline. I will get one when I return for phase 3.

          3. MikeSmith | Mar 02, 2006 05:11am | #19

            way beyond cool... reminds me of that miraculous stair  in Santa FeMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

          4. donpapenburg | Mar 02, 2006 05:13am | #20

            Wow  , nineteen and not one .

            I was thinking that that would be a good setup for a tight spiral stair and no pole in the center. 

          5. User avater
            trout | Mar 02, 2006 05:22am | #21

            Very nice.

          6. StanFoster | Mar 02, 2006 05:50am | #22

            Armin:     Just further proof you are the best I know in this business.   Simply stunning......

             

             

            Stan

    4. User avater
      CloudHidden | Mar 02, 2006 03:17am | #10

      Beautiful work, Armin. Very slick solution for an awkward area. I love how the treads connect. On first look they seem to defy gravity. Musta spent more hours thinking it through than building it!

      1. riverman | Mar 02, 2006 03:33am | #12

        Thanks guys for the compliments. I'll post more on the inner workings as soon as I get back into the shop and sort through the boat load of construction photos.

        Edited 3/1/2006 7:42 pm ET by riverman

      2. riverman | Mar 02, 2006 03:35am | #13

        Musta spent more hours thinking it through than building it!
        You got that right, I nicknamed this project "My insomnia stairs"

    5. Hooker | Mar 02, 2006 03:57am | #17

      Abo-friggin-lutely awesome!  Very impressive.  I have saved this for future reference just in case I'm ever able to "play" like this.  Beautiful work.I get paid to do carpentry.  That makes me a professional.

      If I work on my own house does that make me a DIY?

    6. User avater
      Heck | Mar 03, 2006 04:40am | #33

      Absolutely awesome, maestro!

       "Citius, Altius, Fortius"

  3. Frankie | Mar 02, 2006 12:53am | #3

    Very impressive.

    At first, I thought this was going to be a lame thread asking how to build an open tread, stringerless and columnless spiral stair. I was prepared to answer that it could not be done. Oh "contraire mon frere!" You have proved me wrong on so many levels and with great elegance.

    Bravo!

    How did you connect each tread? Did you use threaded rod?

    Frankie

    There he goes—one of God's own prototypes—a high powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live and too rare to die.

    —Hunter S. Thompson
    from Fear And Loathing In Las Vegas

  4. reinvent | Mar 02, 2006 02:03am | #7

    You got any pics of it under construction in your shop?
    Your duck bill return should have an inlaid eye. ;-)

  5. User avater
    zak | Mar 02, 2006 02:10am | #8

    !

    I'm not sure what else to say- fine work, creative design.

    zak

  6. ponytl | Mar 02, 2006 02:48am | #9

    man... i use to think most anyone could do most anything... with basic skill sets and time...  you are so far beyond what i think 99.9 % of "normal" people could do ... ur in the super human space....  do you rock back and forth and play classical piano with no lessons also?

    if i was pick'n new heros...

    I'd wish i could do work like that but if i had those kinda wishes I'd rather spend em on the lotto and then watch you do it for me....

    great work

    P

    1. Snort | Mar 02, 2006 03:17am | #11

      Armin, that is really something, nice touch upon nice touch...can't see why you couldn't work with the original space, though<G> Hey, pocket doors can't come off the track if they're nailed open

  7. ruffmike | Mar 02, 2006 06:05am | #23

    Did you use nails or screws? ; ^ )

                                Mike

        Trust in God, but row away from the rocks.

    1. riverman | Mar 02, 2006 06:18am | #24

      Did you use nails or screws? ; ^ )That's funny, you must have read some of the joist hanger thread bs.

    2. riverman | Mar 02, 2006 06:45am | #25

      Photo's of master newel. Since I had no way to tie into the existing framing I opted to secure the newel to the floor and stair stringer using a weldment. Unfortunately I didn't take a photo of the steel before I set the first tread. The upright is a 20 inch section of 1-1/2 x 2 x 1/8 wall rectangular steel tube welded to a 6 x 14 steel base plate with a wing welded to the side of the tube enabling it to be screwed to the stair stringer. Connection to the floor and stringer utilized 21 #14 Spax screws. The wood newel is fastened to the steel tube by way of 4- 5/16 socket head screws hidden by the white buttons visible in photo 15.The rail climbed at such a steep angle I had to move the rail out another 1-1/4 inch so a persons knuckles would clear the newel post cap. I ended up merging a turned birdseye bracket spacer with the newel trim.

      1. jimatgreatwhite | Mar 02, 2006 08:47am | #26

        Nice!

        I I have trouble framing a straight run of stairs. Laminated a 15" radius once, no fun at all!

        Jim at  Great White

      2. prosecho | Mar 02, 2006 05:02pm | #27

        WOW!!

        Raises a lot of questions.

        How do you charge for something like that.

      3. thickasabrick | Mar 02, 2006 07:56pm | #29

        My question is this: Did the homeowners' say, "WOW!" I mean, did they understand that a mastercraftsman did the d@mn near impossible and made it beautiful to boot? Inquiring minds want to know.

        Jay

      4. gordsco | Mar 03, 2006 06:32am | #40

        Beauty runs deep riverman.

        I'm hoping to understand what you are about to explain.

         

         

         Gord

  8. codehorse | Mar 02, 2006 05:51pm | #28

    Wow, beautiful! Seems to defy gravity! Nice work!

  9. user-89918 | Mar 02, 2006 09:53pm | #30

    Extremely impressive work. I hope you know that talent such as yours exists in only a select few. Unbelievably beautiful. I hope you charged accordingly and your client appreciates what you did for them.

     

    The CM

     

    1. riverman | Mar 03, 2006 05:32am | #36

      Thanks one and all. Several posters asked pretty much the same question, in different variations, as you did. As in "I hope you charged accordingly and your client appreciates what you did for them."As to how I charge for something of this nature: I have been at this for over 39 years so I can pretty much tell how many weeks it should take based on something of similar size and complexity I had built before. The staircase in this thread was something new, something I have wanted to try for many years. In most cases it’s difficult to sell an idea that is totally out of the box and when I found that rare client who was willing to give us the freedom to build something different no questions asked I jumped at the opportunity. I built the main staircase in their house a year earlier and could tell they would recognize and appreciate what would go into building this one. The client had no clue what they were getting until I installed it. The WOW response was well beyond what I expected. I made money on the deal, not as much as I should have but I went into it for the experience and the opportunity to work out the bugs for an upcoming job that will utilize many of the structural aspects of this one. I learned more on this project than I had in the past ten years combined, shortcuts and timesavers that will make up the difference in profits down the line.

      1. joewood | Mar 03, 2006 05:55am | #37

        Can't wait to see how you built that Riverman ..

      2. Lateapex911 | Mar 03, 2006 06:05am | #39

        I'm not sure if I should bother with the praise, as it is obvious that you have exceeded everyones idea of what is possible. Great stuff, thanks for sharing!

        I know it's not polite to talk money, and that it's all regional anyway, but I am impressed with the seeming amount of time this would take. Did you track the hours of design, build and install?

        Can't wait to see the build pics! And a view shot somewhere down the road would be cool too. Thanks!Jake Gulick

        [email protected]

        CarriageHouse Design

        Black Rock, CT

        1. riverman | Mar 03, 2006 07:25am | #41

          Did you track the hours of design, build and install?Yes I did but since it's a prototype it's kind of meaningless. Lots of wasted motion and trips back to the drawing board. Once I blew past the point of no return I had no other choice but to soldier on and make the best of what I had started with. I'm planning on doing a second one minus the self inflicted snags and feel I could do well at 16 grand plus mileage for delivery which is comparable to what I charged for the other freestanding units we built.

          1. User avater
            trimcarp | Mar 04, 2006 01:42am | #45

            Riverman,

            Those stairs are incredible.What does this situation in my life ask of me?

          2. riverman | Mar 04, 2006 04:51am | #46

            I'll do my best to describe the details of construction. This may take a while and if anyone has questions along the way feel free to ask. I wish I had taken more photos along the way but time has a habit of running away.The inner core of the stair system is welded steel tubing. 2 x2 for the horizontal members and 1-1/2 x 2 for the vertical riser tubes. I welded up frame sets to take the place of conventional risers. Once I had the required number of frames I built support staging on the full-scale stair layout drawn on a sheet of Masonite. The treads (OSB) are cut to size based on the template and set upon the staging. Once I had all the risers in place I cut the tubing to size for the tread stretchers (not shown in photo). It’s not apparent in the photo but since the stair is laid out on a half of an ellipse every tread spreader is at slightly different angle. The finished tread at the line of travel is uniform however because of the ellipse there was no way to mass-produce any of the tread sections. Once all the parts were fitted to size I moved everything outside and welded the joints together.

          3. riverman | Mar 04, 2006 04:56am | #47

            Once the staging was reset outside I started welding the sections together and removing the supports as I went. The top section was screwed to the side of the barn and the bottom frame screwed to the template setting on a level base tapconed to the slab. Because the stairs were to be installed in an existing occupied home connecting the second and third floor I opted to build the steel carriage in two sections.
            The first section comprises of treads one through five. The vertical tubing frame on the lower left is the outer edge of the first section. More photos on this later. Threads six through twelve make up the upper section. The two sections are through bolted with three socket head bolts. Once the welding was completed and all joints checked I lowered the upper section with the tractor, painted the frame and moved the two units back into the shop. Incidentally the upper section weighed 140 lbs. Lightweight and strong, the big plus of steel tubing.

            Edited 3/3/2006 8:58 pm ET by riverman

          4. riverman | Mar 04, 2006 04:59am | #48

            The two sections positioned in the shop ready for the woodworking phase. Note the master layout template on the floor. This template was used through the entire construction phase as well as the final installation. Once at the home site the template was positioned, checked and double checked and finally with sweaty palms the hole in the carpet was cut.

          5. MikeSmith | Mar 04, 2006 05:08am | #49

            armin... slick !

            is that an 8' Stabila hanging on the wall?

            View ImageMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

          6. riverman | Mar 04, 2006 07:03am | #50

            No it's a 6-6 jamb level. I thought about springing for the 8 ft builders level but decided I would be better off with a straight edge long enough to span floor to floor which also doubles as my story pole for riser layouts.What's the trick for posting the pictures with the text?

          7. MikeSmith | Mar 04, 2006 07:09am | #51

            click on your attachment.. when you can see it, right click it to display a menu

            choose "copy" hit your "back " button

            then  go to the bottom of your post  and choose "edit"

            when you get to the edit.. scroll thru until you want to insert your photo

            go to the top of the screen & select "edit" ....choose .... "paste"

            it will insert your photo..

            go to the bottom and click on "apply" then "continue"

            it's actually  faster than the description

            View ImageMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

          8. riverman | Mar 04, 2006 07:22am | #52

            detail of base section underconstruction. There is a fair amount of steel bracing hidden behingd the framing. The base is screwed to the floor with 24 #14 spax screws, into the joist whereever possible.Thank's Mike. I Must be doing something wrong as I get a "can't copy message". Will try again in the morning.Edited 3/3/2006 11:28 pm ET by riverman

            Edited 3/3/2006 11:34 pm ET by riverman

          9. MikeSmith | Mar 04, 2006 07:28am | #53

            you juxtapose your finished pic..

             

            View Image

            with your shop pic...

            View Image

            and you can almost develop xray vision

            no matter ... the finished  stair is really gorgeous...

            'bout 3 months 'till spring in the uppa ?

            Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

            Edited 3/3/2006 11:31 pm ET by MikeSmith

          10. Lateapex911 | Mar 04, 2006 09:41pm | #54

            Very very cool. Getting that stair  to look so good, and be so well finishe dAND be code compliant was a real trick. Again, nice job.  And, I would say that you didn't charge enough!Jake Gulick

            [email protected]

            CarriageHouse Design

            Black Rock, CT

          11. User avater
            Sphere | Mar 05, 2006 12:16am | #55

            Really, really sweet!  As soon as I saw the first pic, I knew there had to be some steelwork goin on in there.

            Once again, you have done it. Made the best damm staircase I have ever laid eyes on.!!!

            Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

             

  10. mcf | Mar 03, 2006 01:01am | #31

    BEAUTIFUL WORK!

     

    1 question: Is the span bouncy?

    1. riverman | Mar 03, 2006 04:25am | #32

      1 question: Is the span bouncy?No bounce at all, like none. At a later date I'll post pic's of how I did it. Not that it would fit but you could carry a piano up there and it wouldn't flex.

      1. donpapenburg | Mar 03, 2006 05:09am | #34

        You dun good  !!!!!!!!!!!!!  

         

        34&0

      2. mcf | Mar 03, 2006 05:28am | #35

        enough already....we are dying to know how you did it.

  11. BoJangles | Mar 03, 2006 05:55am | #38

    Just about the time I start to get a little bored with the building business, I see something like that!!

    That is not only incredibly beautiful, but the challenge of designing something like that is what turns me on.

    I hope you can post some construction pics.

    Now if I could find a client who could afford something like this........

    Maybe I need to add another story to my house???

  12. DougU | Mar 03, 2006 07:27am | #42

    Armin

    Those stairs are simply beautiful!

    Very well done

    Doug

     

    1. BungalowJeff | Mar 03, 2006 04:41pm | #43

      Just FANTASTIC! Please inlcude more photos! The attention to detail, like the trim circle under the rail support, just pushes this one beyond cool. Oh yeah, then there is that little floating-that's-not-possible effect! Just inspiring....that's not a mistake, it's rustic

  13. pickings | Mar 03, 2006 05:52pm | #44

    Truly a masterpiece........you should be proud.

    You, my friend, are an artist disguising yourself as a carpenter.

  14. User avater
    Crash | Mar 05, 2006 02:11am | #56

    I see people referring to you as Armin.  Are you the famous Armin Hammer from the old(er) days?  Your work is really inspirational.  I wish FHB would show more work like yours in the mag!  That, my friends, is fine home building...

     

    Hey, it ain't rocket surgery...

    1. MikeSmith | Mar 05, 2006 02:31am | #57

      the very same.. think we can lure him down to andy's for TipiFest ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

      1. riverman | Mar 05, 2006 07:19am | #66

        think we can lure him down to andy's for TipiFest ?Me thinks you just want to watch this flannel shirt yooper walk around the city staring up at the tall buildings.

        1. MikeSmith | Mar 05, 2006 07:33am | #67

          pssst... looka armin... what  a strain he's puttin on his adam's apple

          nah.. i just wanted to drink beer and swop lies with youMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

          1. calvin | Mar 05, 2006 10:21pm | #70

            Mike,   Armin passed through here maybe two yrs ago.  I managed to get him to pause long enough for those couple beers and a burger at Dales. 

            I will say this.  He can pack more stuff under the cap of a (ranger) p/u than any known man. 

            He does not have a 6-6 mouth/5-6 body.

            Softspoken and a good time.

            I tried to lie cheat and steal to get him down here for a disertation at Riverfest.  I almost had him and his wife convinced to make the treck down, but the well over a thousand miles to the U P must have been too much with the workload.  If we can get his daughter in law pregnant last month, there's a chance he could take a turn after being there for the delivery.

            Let's see if Andy C has better luck with the enticement.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.

            Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.

            Quittin' Time

             

          2. MikeSmith | Mar 05, 2006 10:27pm | #71

            well, i can dream , huh ?

            now... we gotta work on fusco ... how about it vince ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

          3. calvin | Mar 05, 2006 10:40pm | #72

            Fusco?

            Well, if'n he were in the mood he can't be more than a couple blocks and maybe a ferry ride away, no?   We could go get him if we could figger how to unlock the fence.  I'd like to meet him and very much would like to meet his daughter-the one that posted while he was incommunicado way back then.  She sounded like a nice smart girl.

            Could John T8 maybe do one of those flash things with Vince roaring up?  He could use it every year as sort of a marketing technique.

            Two jumbo buckets in restless anticipation-12 bucks early bird.  All you can whack in an hour.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.

            Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.

            Quittin' Time

             

          4. jimblodgett | Mar 06, 2006 02:32am | #77

            I think Joe moved...up to New Hampshire or something, didn't he?

            I thought he was planning on attending Rhodesfest but something came up. I was disappointed, for sure. Tipi, Tipi, Tipi!

            http://www.asmallwoodworkingcompany.com

          5. calvin | Mar 06, 2006 02:56am | #79

            I thought he was planning on attending Rhodesfest but something came up

            Yup, his house burnt down.

            But I think he's rebuilding on the same spot, correct me if I'm wrong.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.

            Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.

            Quittin' Time

             

          6. riverman | Mar 06, 2006 04:43am | #81

            Cal, thanks for the great review. Had I known you would be so enthralled with my truck loading job I would have stopped in town, picked up a few empty boxs and jambed them into the remaining spaces. As it was I had to jetson a few minor items to make room for some baked goods at the awsome bread joint it town.

    2. riverman | Mar 05, 2006 03:38am | #58

      That be me, the product of many long northern michigan winters.

      1. prosecho | Mar 05, 2006 03:57am | #59

        Great stuff .Keep it coming.
        I had trouble copying pictures at first .I kept trying ,no luck .I decided to resurect Internet Explorer(I was using firefox)I can copy with Internet Explorer but not Firefox.
        Hope this helps.

        1. riverman | Mar 05, 2006 04:14am | #60

          Cool I'll try that later, thanks

          1. blue_eyed_devil | Mar 05, 2006 06:21am | #61

            Armin, thank you for sharing that inspirational project with us. Your skills and craftsmanship are nothing short of spectacular.

            How many miles are you from Oakland county, MI? I'm trying to figure out how much I need to get one of these.

            blue 

          2. riverman | Mar 05, 2006 06:42am | #62

            Thanks Blue, round numbers about 400 miles.

          3. riverman | Mar 05, 2006 06:58am | #63

            A freestanding spiral stair is only as ridged as it’s connections to the house framing. The base at the bottom acts like a torsion box and if properly constructed will carry pretty much most of the load on it’s own. Usually while under construction I bolt the steel base components directly to the shop floor while the top is only screwed to a header in several places to keep it from drifting out of line. The size of the base is determined by how positive a connection can be made to the floor framing. In this case I was hampered by the fact this was a retrofit staircase and tying into the floor framing by adding extra steel below the floor line was not an option. Thus said I opted to integrate the torsion box effect into treads 1 through 5. Photos below show the extent of the wood framing surrounding the steel components. The base steel consists of a 1-1/2 x 2 steel header supported by three vertical tubes of the same cross section. Welded to a base frame of 2 x 2 x ¼ angle iron. The vertical tubes are angle iron braced to the base in two places.
            Unfortunately the photo I took of the steel torsion detail did not make it into the computer files.

            Edited 3/4/2006 11:04 pm ET by riverman

          4. Lansdown | Mar 05, 2006 07:01am | #64

            I was going to say, you post pic's of your dog in bed but not the stairs.LOLJust to add to the wealth of well deserved accolades: Fantastic job!The steel structure alone with glass treads would make an awesome stair too.

          5. riverman | Mar 06, 2006 04:51am | #83

            The steel structure alone with glass treads would make an awesome stair too.That idea was tossed around until my engineer friend asked "What are you going to call it; The beaver view?" After that I decided not to mention it to my lady client.

          6. Lansdown | Mar 06, 2006 05:02am | #84

            LOL!Some of the Apple computer stores have glass stairs, but I beleive the glass is sandblasted, probably for that reason.

          7. riverman | Mar 05, 2006 07:11am | #65

            To give the screws some extra meat to bite into I screwed and glued a sub-base of ¾ plywood over the existing ¾ OSD sub-floor catching as many floor joist as possible.

      2. User avater
        Crash | Mar 05, 2006 10:51pm | #73

        Well, some of your "how to" posts and Stan's posts from a few years ago gave me the courage to attempt a spiral stair in my house.  I should have it done in a few more weekends.  But it's like a kid's bike with training wheels compared to your Mercedes.

          

        Hey, it ain't rocket surgery...

        1. StanFoster | Mar 05, 2006 11:21pm | #74

          Armin:     I am still in awe of your most excellent display of craftsmanship....and the high level of patience to achieve what you have done here.

           

          You are hands down so far out in front....I cant even see you.

           

          Stan

          Edited 3/5/2006 3:22 pm ET by StanFoster

          1. BoJangles | Mar 06, 2006 12:05am | #75

            Ya, but could he build a gyrocopter??

          2. MikeSmith | Mar 06, 2006 12:10am | #76

            good answer !Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

          3. riverman | Mar 06, 2006 04:47am | #82

            Steam I could do, however, if its got a gasoline engine on it count me out. Come to think of it a wood fired, steam powered gyrocopter would be a sight.

          4. StanFoster | Mar 06, 2006 03:02pm | #96

            Bo:    Armin could build that gyro....and it would be even better.   NOT even a doubt.    I know when I am about at my limits.....

            His display of stairwork has me looking a lot closer at myself..... would I have taken on such a project?   My answer probably would be I would .....but I am 100% of our family income and my bid would be so cautious....I doubt it would have been accepted.

            I would have been in la la land taking on such a masterpiece.  But Armin truly is by far the best qualified for such a project. 

             

            Stan

          5. User avater
            Crash | Mar 06, 2006 03:50pm | #97

            Stan, we've seen enough of your work to know that you can do pretty much anything you want.  You and Armin are the "stair masters" (so to speak).  It'd be like trying to decide between a date with Kathy Ireland or Elle MacPherson.  Well, sorta like that...  ;-) 

            Hey, it ain't rocket surgery...

          6. riverman | Mar 06, 2006 08:30pm | #98

            Stan, I think he just called us "girlie stairbuilders" LOLCrash, I'm more like a Helen Hunt type of a guy.

          7. User avater
            Crash | Mar 06, 2006 08:47pm | #99

            Hmmm...  good point.  And after seeing Stan's picture in his copter thread I'm thinking "Mrs Captain Kangeroo..."  

            Hey, it ain't rocket surgery...

          8. User avater
            Crash | Mar 06, 2006 08:55pm | #100

            Here's the proof... 

            Hey, it ain't rocket surgery...

          9. riverman | Mar 06, 2006 05:05am | #85

            Thanks again Stan. I cant even see you.A lot of that has to do with the glare from my bald head.A couple of under construction shop photos

          10. riverman | Mar 06, 2006 05:28am | #86

            photo of the balcony book case end.

          11. User avater
            jonblakemore | Mar 06, 2006 05:42am | #90

            Is that cork flooring on the top floor or are my eyes just goofy? 

            Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA

          12. riverman | Mar 06, 2006 05:50am | #91

            Your eyes are darn good, that's cork. First time I ever seen the stuff. Quiet and warm to walk on. Don't know how durable it is but it looks pretty cool.

          13. donpapenburg | Mar 06, 2006 05:29am | #87

            That reminds me of the two blonds discussing if florida or the moon was closer .  Their conclusion was it had to be the moon because they could see the moon.

          14. riverman | Mar 06, 2006 06:02am | #93

            Hey Hey, I used to be a blonde before I lost it on the headboard.

          15. User avater
            Heck | Mar 06, 2006 07:15am | #94

            Same two blondes happen later to approach a stream from opposite sides.

            Blonde #1  ' How do I get to the other side?'

            Blonde #2  "You're ON the other side!"

             "Citius, Altius, Fortius"

          16. riverman | Mar 06, 2006 05:34am | #88

            Photo 1 Outer rail glue upPhoto 2 inner rail blank finished, outer rail clamped

          17. sapwood | Mar 07, 2006 02:09am | #101

            I have a couple of questions about your railing glue-up. Have you ever done this using a vacuum bag and/or do the clamps give you an advantage over the bag? Are the red painted supports something that you use for all your glue-ups? And finally, what processes do you use for final shaping of the rail? Thank you for sharing this work. I've done a few railings, but never the full stair. Well done.

          18. riverman | Mar 07, 2006 03:59am | #102

            Have you ever done this using a vacuum bag and/or do the clamps give you an advantage over the bag? Are the red painted supports something that you use for all your glue-ups? And finally, what processes do you use for final shaping of the rail?Jeeze you guys are one step ahead of me. I'm working on another thread "Freeforming a spiral handrail" It's a long winded process so I thought it better to present it on it's own and unless someone suggest otherwise I'll post it in the Construction Technique section this weekend. As to the vacuum bag, I have tried it and didn't like the results. The laminate joints are not as tight as using rail clamps. I believe it's because the laminates are narrow and under so much strain that there is insufficient pressure to pull them tight. When you consider I space my clamps as close together as I can get them, sometimes 100 clamps per rail, 22 laminates at a time a bag system will not be able to pull everything together. I'm sure someone out there will dispute this but it has not worked for me. Whenever possible I resaw my rail laminates from one plank so I get a nice grain/color match the last thing I want is gaps and fat glue joints. I still use the vacuum bag for large diameter stringers but never for railings.

          19. riverman | Mar 10, 2006 04:29am | #103

            photo of stairs under construction, both inside and outside rails set.Also photo of underside, note balusters are screwed from the underside and covered after installation with the bottom tread cover.

          20. prosecho | Mar 10, 2006 07:09am | #104

            This is a really interesting project to me .Like nothing I have ever done.Those are the kind I love.I noticed a few pictures back those red bracets on the treads,I am guessing they are what you use when you glue the rail laminates,are they bolted down?Where did you get them?

            After you glue up the rails what do you use to shape them?

            Are your clamps insured?

            Thanks

            Rick

            View Image

            View Image

          21. riverman | Mar 11, 2006 01:19am | #105

            Thanks RickI am guessing they are what you use when you glue the rail laminates,are they bolted down?Where did you get them?After you glue up the rails what do you use to shape them?They are C-clamped to the treads as needed, in this case, since the center of the tread will be carpet I used one screw through the plate to eliminate one clamp. I welded up my own, use them for a lot of similar tasks such as curved jambs, trim anything that needs to be bent lamanated. As to the shaping of the rail, I have another thread in the works, free forming a spiral handrail. Will post it in the Construction Techniques section by the end of the weekend, should give you a good idea of what my method of madness is.

          22. jimblodgett | Mar 11, 2006 05:08am | #106

            Earlier in the week it was "...post it this weekend."  Now that Friday afternoon is here, it's "...post it by the end of the weekend".  Glad to see I'm not the only one paddling wildly just below the surface. <g>Tipi, Tipi, Tipi!

            http://www.asmallwoodworkingcompany.com

          23. riverman | Mar 11, 2006 05:39am | #107

            post this weekend covers up to and including the end of the weekend. Didn't realize I was keeping some of yous guys in suspense. Ya would think I was gonna post a thread on rebuilding the grand staircase in the playboy mansion or sumptin.

          24. QCInspector | Mar 11, 2006 06:08am | #108

            "Ya would think I was gonna post a thread on rebuilding the grand staircase in the playboy mansion or sumptin."Only if you were using Hugh's helpers to do the job!

          25. prosecho | Mar 11, 2006 08:17am | #109

            Didn't realize I was keeping some of yous guys in suspense. Ya would think I was gonna post a thread on rebuilding the grand staircase in the playboy mansion or sumptin.

            I think your project here is beyound anything I have done but its simple enough I can almost grasp it.The way your breaking it down.Your working in a relm I strive to be.Don't know if i will get there.But I have done a lot of things that at one time I did not think possible.A Grand master in Taekwondo used to teach ,today not possible,tomorrow possible.

             

          26. riverman | Mar 11, 2006 03:04pm | #110

            But I have done a lot of things that at one time I did not think possible.I agree. Sometimes I feel like the proverbial Darwin wood monkey, having crawled out of a sawdust bin and evolved over time. Looking back think I could have built this 40 years ago however my guess is the fit and finish would have been a tad primative. Not to mention the size of the scrap pile would have been huge.

          27. globaldiver | Mar 11, 2006 07:41pm | #111

            My local (and well paid) hardwood supplier calls that process "making designer firewood." 

          28. Kowboy | Mar 12, 2006 06:58am | #112

            Riverman:

            I've built a curved rail or two with a pitch change, but I doubt I'm qualified to sweep the floor of your shop. I could possibly carry Stan's tools from the truck to the house, if the master would allow.

            I am grateful to share the same state as you and Blue.

            Thanks for the inspiration.

          29. MikeSmith | Mar 12, 2006 07:40am | #113

            i didn't think the uppa was the same state .....Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

          30. riverman | Mar 12, 2006 01:50pm | #114

            Lol, ya sure you betcha you been here.

          31. blue_eyed_devil | Mar 14, 2006 09:06pm | #115

            Don't even mention my name in a post to Riverman. He's forgotton more stuff than I'll ever know.

            My skills don't even compare.

            I'd spend ten months building that set (if I could conceive of it)  and it would cave in and look like  a kindergardnew built it.

            blue 

          32. riverman | Mar 15, 2006 02:18am | #116

            He's forgotton more stuff than I'll ever know.

            Talk about forgetting. I forget more stuff than I care to admit, like where I put my pencil, tape, and coffee mug, worse yet I spend as much time looking for my truck in the parking lot as I do walking the isle at HD. I wish someone would think about us old farts and invent a GPS for misplaced tools.

          33. blue_eyed_devil | Mar 15, 2006 04:51am | #117

            invent a GPS for misplaced tools.

            We'd  lose the GPS!

            blue 

          34. donpapenburg | Mar 15, 2006 06:57am | #118

            I'm helpin on that job ,If I havta pay .

          35. riverman | Mar 15, 2006 01:48pm | #119

            You just wanna be a body guard and I'm not talking about guarding my body either.

          36. donpapenburg | Mar 16, 2006 04:19am | #120

            More like body grope

        2. jimblodgett | Mar 06, 2006 02:33am | #78

          Let's see some photos of that thing, Roger!Tipi, Tipi, Tipi!

          http://www.asmallwoodworkingcompany.com

          1. User avater
            Crash | Mar 06, 2006 02:22pm | #95

            Jim,

            Pretty soon.  I should finish the carpentry on it this week and then it's paint and urethane.  I have a few other "finishing touches" as well. 

            Hey, it ain't rocket surgery...

  15. globaldiver | Mar 05, 2006 08:21pm | #69

    Armin:

    This is indeed beautiful work.  Can  you tell us a little about any "engineering" calculations done to confirm the strength of the structure and/or any dealings with city/county/etc. on code compliance and structural approvals?

    --Ken

    1. riverman | Mar 06, 2006 04:33am | #80

      Can you tell us a little about any "engineering" calculations done to confirm the strength of the structure and/or any dealings with city/county/etc. on code compliance and structural approvals? I have a fair amount of experience in metal working so I had a good idea of what I needed to pull this off. Once I settled on the design I submitted the drawings to a friend who works in the engineering field, he ran the calculations through the company computer and determined that my original design, with a third set of tubing at the line of travel, was total overkill. Which was good news since I needed to cut down on the weight as much as possible. I don’t know what program they used but I was informed if required I could get a certified stamp, however if I didn’t need it I would be money ahead. Calculations aside the weak link is welding the joints, I decided to error on the side of caution and weld gussets over all the joints. In some parts of the country, the welding must be done by a certified welder. If that turned out being the case I was prepared to tack all the joints and haul it to town and have the deed done as required. Armed with this info I went to the building department and presented my project knowing I could get an engineers stamp faxed to them if needed. The staircase is pretty small and so all they asked was that it passes a fully loaded field test. We ended up having 6 people stand on the stairs at the same time and it was signed off without a hitch. I do know in some areas of the country it’s not that simple. The best approach is to do your homework and be prepared to answer the building departments questions in a professional manner and be prepared to furnish the required data if asked for. In extreme cases the cost of the required engineering certification could kill the project. Best to let those project go unless the client wants to pay for it.

      1. mcf | Mar 06, 2006 05:37am | #89

        how did you get that into the house? did you move the finsh stairs as a monolithic unit? or did you stage everything in your shop, tear it down, and perform final assembly on site?

        i am very interested to know, especially after see you use the tractor to lift the subframe.

        1. riverman | Mar 06, 2006 06:01am | #92

          The heaviest section weighs 140 lbs. The steel is two parts, what you see hanging on the tractor is the upper section, the base weighs about the same but is a bit more bulky. It's pretty much knock down, delivered pre-painted and finished. A few photos showing the tread install

  16. User avater
    Sailfish | Apr 01, 2006 06:07pm | #121

    I am just in awe.

    Some things some people are capable of is amazing to me.

     

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

     

    WWPD

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