I have a 1919 house that needs termite treatment and structural repairs to the front porch. My main question is what to do about the stairs, which seem to be sinking.
The house is a California Bungalow with stucco over wood framing. The front porch is over the front part of the house foundation, has wood framing with a concrete landing and concrete stairs. On either side of the stairs is a stucco “buttress”, with a top surface that is continuous with the concrete surface of the front porch.
Underneath, there is extensive termite damage to the structure of the porch. The back of the stairs and buttresses is blocked off with plywood (in contact with the ground), but there seems to be concrete under the stairs. I have no idea whether the stairs are wood framed; I assume the buttresses are, and based on the condition of a nearby decorative stucco box, I’d guess the wood framing inside the buttresses has probably completely disintegrated. Neither the stairs nor the buttresses appear to have a foundation. There is undermining of the ground under the north buttress, the stairs look like they have sunk about half an inch on that side relative to the sidewalk, and there is a vertical crack in the stucco on each side of the stair/buttress structure, where each buttress meets the porch cripple wall — in other words, there’s shifting of the entire stair/buttress structure occurring relative to the porch. I’ll post some pictures here, shortly.
The structural pest contractor (who also has a GC license) proposes to repair the porch infrastructure using ground contact PT fir for joists, 3/4″ PT plywood firring (there seems to be 1×8 or something similar subfloor-type boards there now), and 15 lb felt paper on top where wood meets concrete. He’s going to resurface the porch landing and stairs with Pro Deck.
For the steps/buttresses, there’s a big question mark, because he didn’t remove the plywood and get a good look in there when he inspected. Assuming “conditions are as expected” (I plan to call and ask what conditions are expected), he proposes to remove the plywood, chemically treat for termites, “float a mortar rat proofing on the rip-rap”, and fill the void under the north buttress with a mortar mixture “to prevent future soil movement”.
Questions:
1. Is this a reasonable approach to take to the front steps and buttresses? He’s charging a bit over $800 for that bit alone, and the whole job (there’s a foundation wall that is below grade and needs to be capped, too) is costing a fortune, so I’m a bit worried about cost, but I don’t want the stairs to sink any more and end up with the crack propagating to the top surface.
2. I’m going to go measure those boards under the porch floor later today, but assuming that they’re full dimentional 1x, does it make sense to use 3/4″ plywood? Will the felt paper make up the 1/4″ difference in height? Or is it likely he really plans on replacing *all* of the joists? Or should I assume that he’ll shim everything up to be level?
3. Is 15-lb felt paper appropriate?
4. Does the grade of plywood matter, or is it enough to specify PT?
5. I thought firring meant strips of wood that are spaced, and just meant to keep one surface off of another. Is that more appropriate than the current setup, which looks like maybe there was originally a wood porch which was subsequently concreted over? Not that I can really tell until the existing wood is ripped out.
Any thoughts appreciated. Sorry for the length of the post.
Rebeccah
Replies
OK, here are the photos.
So, again, the question is, what would you do about the stairs and the stucco buttresses, particularly the one on the right, to prevent further sinking?
Crap. the photos didn't upload.
Let me try this again.
Edited 9/17/2005 4:14 pm ET by Rebeccah
OK, looks like I just wasn't patient enough. Dial-up's a b**** sometimes.
I don't mean to be a "yes" man, but I agree with Piffin. You won't know what is really going on until you tear the old stairs out and then it just makes sense to me to start over and do everything right and then you know that you won't have more problems later.
PLEASE DON'T APOLOGIZE FOR THE LENGTH OF THE POST
You were verythorough
I cannot understand why he would be proposing to do what sounds liek a thorough rebuild of the porch structure, but only half-sole the steps when it appears from your description and the photos, that the steps are the main thing in need of rebuild.
Caution - I am totally unfamiliar with southern calif bungalows, but do know rot and insect damage up here in the other corner of the country.
but I would thank that it would be proper to tear the stairs and 'buttresses' off to rtebuild them and nly do as needed under the porch itself.
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I cannot understand why he would be proposing to do what sounds liek a thorough rebuild of the porch structure, but only half-sole the steps when it appears from your description and the photos, that the steps are the main thing in need of rebuild.
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The porch really is the main thing in need of a rebuild; my main question is about the stairs. It's hard to get photos under there, because some idjit evidently piled a bunch of construction debris (looks like some sort of rubbly concrete) under the porch so you have to commando crawl under there. Piled it over the foundation too. The termite mud tunnels are at the end of the porch floorboards that are attached to the house, and those boards are extensively damaged at both ends as well as scattered areas in the middle. It actually looks like the joist supporting the bedroom floor at the front exterior wall is damaged, too. I think that's where he got the idea of replacing joists.
Maybe he's stringing me along about the steps, because I've expressed a hope that I can get by for less than $10K for everything that needs to get done (which ain't going to happen anyway, it seems).
I just spent the afternoon under there again, this time cleaning out the decorative stucco box to the left of the porch. I've got a couple of amazing "before" photos of that (forgot to shoot the "after"s), as well as some shots of live termites. Yay.
It appears, after spending all that time down there, that in fact the entire front of the house has the top of the foundation below grade. Fortunately, the stucco box was built over a concrete slab (old sidewalk? foundation of sorts? it doesn't extend below the ends of the box, just under the front of it and to within 6" of the house foundation), so grade is a good 6-8" below the top of the foundation within the box. But the front left corner of the house has the mudsill below grade (looks pretty OK, but is uncomfortably close to where I saw the termites), and the mudsill between the left buttress and the stucco box is level with or below the concrete where the main water shutoff and garden hose are (completely disintegrated). And of course, at the right front corner of the porch, where the post is unsupported at present.
Some of this is just going to have to wait. If they completely tear out the steps, then we have to bring the railings up to code, which means we might have to deal with the metal awning, etc. etc. etc.
The good thing about having to cap the foundation is that bolting the sill to it (which I need to do for seismic reinforcement) is part of the deal, as it's required by code now.
Another point of view....FWIW
How long have you owned this 86 yr old house?
From the photos I think that the majority of the wood left under the porch assembly was used as concrete forms and was never demolished after the pour. It has become a great food source for the termites. It is not a structural component of your house.
It appears that the porch, as it is now, may have been a remodel at the time of the right side addition. The window trims are different for the two sections of the house. When was the house remodeled?
As far as the subsidence of the porch, guestimated at a "half an inch". The crack shown in the photo is not extrmely large or widely v-shaped and appears not to be fresh/active. Could it be that the remodel of the concrete steps did shift soon after construction and then hasn't done much since? Consider monitoring the possible crack movement for a year...if it is stable then let it be. If not consider jacking or pumping to stabilze rather than demolition and replacement. Check the $$$ difference.
The end of the butress that is exposed at ground level appears to be "perched" over the prior set of concrete steps/butresses. This exposed area could be undercut, footed and concrete filled to gain support and closure from the elements.
I would concentrate my moneys and efforts on the control of the termites, removal of the old form wood, replacement of termite damaged structural members. There are also signs of water intrusionand damage. The moist soils entice the termites....you have a great supply of "food and water"!
The water intrusion should also be seriously addressed. It is as much a thread to the longevity of the house as are the termites.
Also the knob and tube electrical. Quite a potential hazard!
And the old corroded/clogged galvanized water pipes.
The steps may not be your critical item...take a second look/assessment!
..................Iron Helix
Great points. The photos were hard to interpreet, and many of those fir joists under the porch didn't seem that bad to my eye
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Most of the joists don't look bad. There are a couple that are marginal in some areas that you can see - not on the surface, but on the edge - but the problem with structural pests is what you *can't* see. From what I *can* see, the floor boards are completely shot for several inches at both ends, so that raises a legitimate question about what adjacent members will look like once the boards are removed. (As I say, it was really hard to get photos of the underside of the porch. Next to impossible, in fact. The distance is too close, it's dark, and any attempt to illuminate with a flashlight just produced an image of a yellow-orange disk in the darkness. It was too dark for the camera to focus, and for some reason the flash wouldnt go off consistently.)That photo of the 2x2 filled with termites -- the wood looked more or less OK until I started pulling on it to try to get it out. After the bottom 6" tore off you could see the little buggers swarming around in there. Yuck.I respect that the guy called out what he saw and has allowed for replacing joists where necessary, rather than surprising me with it later on.Rebeccah
Thanks for your viewpoint, IronHelix...
How long have you owned this 86 yr old house? A little over a year.
From the photos I think that the majority of the wood left under the porch assembly was used as concrete forms and was never demolished after the pour. It has become a great food source for the termites. It is not a structural component of your house. If you're talking about the plywood, then yes, I agree. In fact, there was a LOT of concrete formwork left behind all around the foundation, and inside that stucco box.
It appears that the porch, as it is now, may have been a remodel at the time of the right side addition. The window trims are different for the two sections of the house. When was the house remodeled? It's quite possible that the porch is a remodel, and the debris underneath was from the time of the remodel. However, there is no right side addition. That's part of the original house. I think the living room windows were replaced at some point -- their exterior trim doesn't match the trim for any of the double-hung windows. It's a fixed window flanked by two casements -- would that put it in the 50s some time? I'd guess the metal awnings were erected around the same time. There is also an addition in the back, where the back porch used to be, that might have been done at the same time or a different time. The building dept. doesn't have a record of any permits being taken out. The previous owners were here something between 5 and 10 years, and professed to know nothing.
As far as the subsidence of the porch, guestimated at a "half an inch". The crack shown in the photo is not extrmely large or widely v-shaped and appears not to be fresh/active. It was hard to get a good picture of the cracks -- there is one on each side of the stairs. The one near the garden hose is actually the wider of the two, and appears the most active. But you're right, neither of them looks really scary. It's just that having both of them, and vertically oriented, made me wonder about independent movement of the stairs/buttresses and the porch.
Could it be that the remodel of the concrete steps did shift soon after construction and then hasn't done much since? Maybe. Consider monitoring the possible crack movement for a year...if it is stable then let it be. If not consider jacking or pumping to stabilze rather than demolition and replacement. Check the $$$ difference. I have no idea how much it would be to demolish and replace, but I'm assuming it would be more than filling the void with mortar (as proposed by the contractor). Can you give me a little more detail on what you mean by jacking and pumping?
The end of the butress that is exposed at ground level appears to be "perched" over the prior set of concrete steps/butresses. Not sure what you mean by the "prior" set. I suspect that the top surface of the buttresses is either cantilevered over the end of the porch, or suspended from it. Probably the latter, because the slope of the buttress top surface is greater then the slope of the porch.
This exposed area could be undercut, footed and concrete filled to gain support and closure from the elements. This sounds more like what I would have thought. Since I don't think any final decision is being made about what to do until we open it up, I'll be sure to ask how much doing something like this, with a footer and concrete rather than just mortar, would cost.
I would concentrate my moneys and efforts on the control of the termites, removal of the old form wood, replacement of termite damaged structural members. That's the idea. I spent half of Labor Day weekend and yesterday afternoon under the house removing "all cellulose debris large enough to rake" and the pest control company is going to start ASAP after I sign their proposal -- hence this thread.
There are also signs of water intrusionand damage.
The moist soils entice the termites....you have a great supply of "food and water"!
The water intrusion should also be seriously addressed. It is as much a thread to the longevity of the house as are the termites. Working on that, too. We've had two significant plumbing leaks fixed, and I need to figure out what to do about that water main penetration. I need to find round extensions for the downspouts, some of which discharge too close to the house. There's also what looks like a sapling growing from a corner of the roof. Sigh.
Also the knob and tube electrical. Quite a potential hazard! We're actually OK on that for now. The original knob and tube is in pretty good shape; what was dangerous was the way the rear addition and kitchen were wired. I've had a licensed electrician review all of the wiring in the house, correct bad splices, rewire the back third of the house, install a new subpanel in the kitchen and one in the garage, and upgrade the service from 60A to 200A. When I get the big bucks saved up to remodel the kitchen, I'll have to look at electrical again, and at that point I'll consider ripping out the knob and tube and rewiring the receptacles in the front 2/3 of the house on more than two circuits. For now, we've got GCFI receptacles on much of the old knob and tube wiring, since knob and tube is not grounded. Budgets, budgets, you know.
And the old corroded/clogged galvanized water pipes. Serviceable for now, thanks. Except in the shower in the back bathroom, but that bathroom was installed completely wrong and without permits anyway, so we limit our use of it.
The steps may not be your critical item...take a second look/assessment!Agreed. As I said, the porch is the critical item right now; the stairs are just the main topic for discussion because the proposal for them didn't jive with what I expected.
I took another look at the pictures of the cracks. They both appear to be "cold joint" cracks which normally occur when new concrete is poured against existing concrete. That is why I assumed the current steps might be a remodel, as well as the modern "wrought iron" railings and the aluminum awning!
The cap being sloped may have been intentional as to shed water away from the main porch where it might puddle or seep into the house.
"jacking or pumping" refers to a method of stabilizing or lifting existing concrete structures using mechanical mechanisms or hydraulic pressure pumped grouts.
Helitech and Griptite are two companies with national franchises that specialize in basement rescues. Try a google for details. Pumping and jacking companies can also be found in the yellow pages under "basements".
Good luck with your renovation.............................Iron Helix