So I bought this colonial, built in 1973, basic box is something like 40 by 26 full 2 story (it is a colonial), mud room adds another 15 or so feet, then the 2 car garage. . Whole thing is in the 70′ length overall. The front entryway has this little roof overhang, maybe 6-8′ supported by 4 pillars. Looks like it wants to be the white house. I live in rural MN out of the cities and this thing does not fit out here at all. Thinking of removing all the pillars and the little roof and adding a 8′ covered porch the lenght ofthe main (40′ box) that has a shed roof at the base of the second story.
Anyone out there who has retrofitted a colonial alongthese lines? (wont go into why I bought a house I hate, let’s just say a woman was involved).
Gkecon.
Replies
I'll give you a no-answer answer, what we call a "bump" to keep your post from dropping off the list, so others can see it and respond. I haven't done what you describe, but see nothing wrong with your idea.
>> The front entryway has this little roof overhang, maybe 6-8' supported by 4 pillars. <<,
Do you mean 6-8' wide or deep? The best thing would be to post a picture. Some guys around here are pretty handy with pics and graphics and if you get lucky they will morf (is that the right term?) a front porch on your pic to get some ideas going.
You mean like one of these?
If you did your long porch and pulled the columned entry forward, you can keep some original style detailing, shed water away from steps, and more or less have your cake and eat it too, AKA the smith entry or village house shown
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I wish. All these are far nicer than this:
That has some nice stuff going on, but that large portico does seem heavy and pretentious for the rest of the place, and the addition to the left doesn't quite mesh. I'd be doing something with plantings to make that recede somewhat. You would lose that nice pediment over the entry if you took it all off.I think the two middle columns should be each moved towards the outside corner 12-14" so they flank the view of the entry in stead of covering it up. You need some nice largish lanterns flanking the entry too.
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Ah, the photo really helps get across why you are not all that pleased with the looks of it. Other than what Piffin suggested, I was wondering if you could somehow even make that porch into a porch with a balcony above it--just adding a floor above the main doorway (even if you never went out on the balcony (though it might be nice to replace the small second story window there with a French door or something so you could potentially use the balcony (it would sertainly look better)). Those tall pillars are overwhelming.
Edit: Looking at the photo again--I wouls also lose the arches between house and garage and on far side of garage. Just pillars with lintels across would look better, IMO.
Edited 12/4/2007 10:05 pm ET by Danno
Thanks for the suggestions. Both yours and Piffin's. Any change would be better. A second story porch would not be accessible unless I were to redo the front staircase/entryway. But it would look alot better from the outside even if it were not accessible. No support for just tearing it all out, including concrete and adding a country style ponederosa, Ben Cartwright (sp?) style front porch? So the house looks like it belongs in the country in Minnesota and not on a plantation....
My love and style is in Classical or neoclassical, so I like things like your front generally.Unfortunately, it was not well laid out - like so many modern ho=es where classical elements are just taken out of a book and thrown at a house to see if they stick...Seems a shame to throw it away, but sometimes you just gotta do what you gotta do. I see what your goal is.Keep the thread alive. There are more ideas at Breaktime than there are flies on a manure pile.. You'll hear more.
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ok thread revitalizer. I'm an arts and crafts sort of guy. Any transition from plantation to Arts and crafts that works with this style? I frankly do not see an obvious one so maybe I'll have to compromise along the lines that you suggest.
Yeah, those tight arches bother me more than the large portico.McDesign did a thing like you suggested with balcony in a thread here a year or tow ago. Wonder if anyone can find the link to that...
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Ugh.
House has so much potential too.
I agree with whoever said get rid of those arches. Do that first, and then step back and take another look.
My first inclination is to let the colonial stay a colonial.
Yank those columns and drop the portico roof down to below the second story.
Got room for a full size window over the front door. Colonials are nothing if not symetrical.
And raise the main roof. Too shallow a pitch for that house.
I don't like the idea of adding a (traditional) front porch. Just the portico...scaled waaay down.
Porch will make it look like its trying to be something it aint. Something different then what it's trying to be currently....but merely trying none-the-less.
J. D. ReynoldsHome Improvements
I think you got it right on the head. Picth is 4 12 if that, no room for insulation and venting so they chose insulation. So far seems ok, but guess what? Shingles (black) look like they need replacing within the next 2-3 years. This is why I hesitate with the rip it all out approach. What you suggest will be far less expensive than what I'm thinking and still preserve resale value/integrity of the structure. Any suggestions on changing the colors? How would green roof/green trim white siding go over on these? I'm a cabin guy at heart. The black/white thing is too much....
Thanks.
I'm usually not much for turning something into something it very much is not--and your house is pretty darn far from being a Craftsman-style bungalo! (Or a cabin) But, since you are prety much stuck with it--BTW, what does your dear wife think about your plans to turn the Colonial you bought into a cabin or Craftsman style? Will your next thread here be telling us about the divorce? ;-)
As I started to say, the house could be changed, but it would be a lot of work. As you say, a full length one-story porch, and I would wrap it around the right side to get away from the severe "house sticking out of ground like a big lump" look. Or extend a planter box of stone or soemthing to sort of taper it down to ground. Porch roof can be at shallower pitch, but as another poster said, the house needs a steeper roof on top floor. (And, to get away from Colonial look, that roof could/should? have an overhang.)
The problem is, that everything about it shouts "Colonial"--you could remove the shutters, but the windows are still too symetrical. I guess you could vary the size and placement of them (but that depends on what is going on inside the house and you can't just do it randomly!).
I need a copy of the photo to refer to, but somehow incorporating the porch into the garage by extending porch to left and using the same column treatment for porch as for area arounds garage--if arches, then arches on porch, if no arches on porch, take away arches from around garage.
Lastly (for now--I will sneak another look at photo and maybe write again), remove clapboard siding and replace with shingles. Make first floor look "heavier than second--either with color or style. Maybe cedar-colored second floor over dark green first floor and some sort of stone work for foundation of first floor and extended planters (I'm not considering cost at all on this, obviously!) Craftsman-style tapered wood or shingled colums may help.
Thing to avoid is making the thing a Frankenstein monster where it becomes obvious that you took a Colonial house and grafted on some Craftsman features! And that is what is hard! More later... (gotta have another cupps, for one thing!).
As McDesign said, Italianate Villa would be an easier transition--but, if you hate Italianate, that won't really help! And seeing as you say your a cabin-guy, I would think Italianate might not be your cup of tea (mug of beer).
The only thing I can think of to add to what I said before, is to change the facade by removing shutters (already said) and changing the framing of the windows--if Italianate, then flattened arches over windows. If Craftsman-style, maybe more of a plain picture frame or box around them. Another thing that may help, along with extending porch and so on, would be doing horizontals--like a band of different color, or different material between windows.
Tucking the whole second floor into a mansard roof would certainly change the look and "lower" the house to the ground--but that would be expensive and may also be a look you detest. A gambrel roof would also work--extend the windows through as dormers (shed dormers would maybe be best), or, keeping the windows in and framing the gambrel roof around them so they are "reverse" dormers, windows sitting in pockets. I personally hate those, usually, because they seem likely to cause leaking, but in this case they may help the look enough to risk doing it.
As JD said, the low slope roof is a lot of the problem. It really dates the house. I think there is one a few miles from here that is very nearly the same. I actually like the portico on yours, but it just doesn't seem to fit that house very well - as you said.
Here's a little thing: Is that a metal eagle up in the front porch gable? If so, to my eye, that's about as 60ish as you can get... loose it ASAP :-)
I know that this is not what you want to here, but other than adjusting things the house "is what it is". That's just me though. I build new stuff. Not remodel. To me, I'd rather move on than get involved in the major changes you are contemplating for the sake of curb appeal.
So here is a possible list of operations:
1. remove the columns/arches in the side door.
2.. What about just removing two of the large front pillars (the middle 2) and see how that looks? No way they are structural.
3. When redo the roof raise the pitch. 6/12 enough? I think I see colonials that look closer to 8/12 maybe 10/12.
4. plants. Are we talking shrubbery in front?
(have to wait until foundation gets fixed). No wife in this project (unless yo ucount my 11 year old, so unconstrained).
Something about that roof bothered me, but I could not put my finger on it. Getting the pitch up to about 8/12 would do a woprld of good, along with ading somewhat to the overhang and using crown/cornice detailing ( the photo looks like plain flat stock fascia) All that and moving or removing the two center columns would tend to shrink the appearance of that portico.Shrubberry in front of the left wing
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2.. What about just removing two of the large front pillars (the middle 2) and see how that looks? No way they are structural.
I don't see how you can say they are not structural. Who knows if the beam (header) that is sitting on top of the columns has joints in it or is made of full length lumber? I'm guessing that the porch is 14' wide - so the header probably is continuous. Personally, I like Piffin's idea of moving the 2 inner columns out better.
3. When redo the roof raise the pitch. 6/12 enough? I think I see colonials that look closer to 8/12 maybe 10/12.
To me 6:12 wouldn't make it at all. I built a 1 story house a few years ago that had a 6:12 and one of my subs commented that it looked like a doublewide. :-) It took over a year to sell that house, but that was probably more the area & neighborhood since almost all the houses in that neighborhood sat for a while before selling. Regarding the pic someone posted just a above, my guess, without seeing the gable end, is that it's a 10:12 or 12:12. Now adays we never built anything less steep than an 8:12 and those are the cheap houses...
BTW - arts and crafts houses often have low sloped roofs like what you have - thing is, that I just don't see what you have as having arts and crafts potential. Just my opinion. Too get some much better ideas on that kind of thing I recommend this book. It will help you identify a style you like, and then the elements that are appropriate for that style. Like Piffin said above, so many modern houses are such a mis-mash of different elements no particular style or theme can be identified. From a glance at the book I'd say what you have now is more Edit <neo-classical> than anything, which, as you say, may not be very "normal" for your area.
4. plants. Are we talking shrubbery in front?Yes - I'd say go to a (plant) nursery for that. Often someone who works there will draw you a landscape plan for a few hundred bucks. Be sure and tell them that you don't want anything that is going to be too big in less than 10 or 15 years. You might want to do whatever exterior remodeling you intend to do first, since heavy remodeling stuff like you are talking about can be hard on shrubbery (to say the lease)
Edited 12/5/2007 11:48 pm ET by Matt
yep it is the eagle. House was built in 1973. In Minnesota we're a few years/decades sometimes/ behind the times.
Matt said: Here's a little thing: Is that a metal eagle up in the front porch gable? If so, to my eye, that's about as 60ish as you can get... loose it ASAP :-)What? You don't like eagles?(actually I found this gem on BT and laughed so hard I saved it to my Silly Stuff file.)Bart
The thing I like about that pic is that everything in it is fugly!!
Yeah, it might be nice to mirror the colonnade in front of the mudroom, only a hair higher and wider spaced. Gotta think about how it would mesh with the windows, though.Structurally, while it's not rocket science you are talking about a non-trivial modification.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
Here's that project of mine that Piffin so graciously mentioned; it's more Italianate - http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=73188.1.
I believe I have a pic somewhere demonstrating what he mentioned - pulling the front out 6-8 more feet (and getting the pediment details right), and then going across under it with the shed roof you mentioned.
Maybe a balcony (fake, I understand) could be inset into it and some French door-looking bits in place of that beady little eye upstairs.
I think the tall gable and long linear shed combo would help soften the interplay between the main house and the wing. That existing portico is "severly classical", so it will have to be treated carefully to integrate it. I thing it's worth keeping, if you can just fix those eave returns!
Need to visualize more Mt. Vernon and less White House; it was a farm.
I'm noodling this AM.
Anyway, here's this new porch
Before -
View Image
And after -
View Image
With the right landscaping I think you'd have a pretty nice house. But it would have to be pretty formal to match the house--some tall straight trees, symmetrical on the front door, perfect grass, a circular driveway, some stone walls and maybe stone pillars at the entry....sounds like that's not your style.
Try this for a more Arts-and-Crafts look. It emphasizes the horizontal, which the flat site and low pitch roofs already do, and uses more rustic materials like wood shingles above, a natural tone of clapboard below, and get rid of the shutters and arches.
View Image
That's a nice design. Paint it in earth tones and it's a perfect MN rurual house.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
Grea! This design works just fine. Inexpensive, solves the harsh Mt. Vernon problem. My 11 year old wants to know thoughts on white with light (darkerthan sky) blue shutters?
So who's in favor/against the Mike Maine approach? (sorry to put you on the spot Mike). But me and my daughter really liked it. She admires your skill as a designer.
It is impressive!Hurry up and send him a deposit so he can get me my cut;)
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Glad you like it. The one thing about it that bothers me is the double valley that would be created over the breezeway door. Maybe Piffin can earn his commission and help us out with that one.
What kind of budget are we talking about here? Adding a porch and redoing all the exterior finish materials won't be cheap....
Thanks Mike. Weatherwatch on the Valley! Not sure about budget. PLans are relatively cheap though. I have all winter to think about it.
Probably i would shift the whole porch to the right so it centers on the house and maybe do something separate with that side door
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I was trying to make it un-symmetrical to un-do the colonial thing...but you're probably right, that's the simplest/best approach. Maybe get rid of the hipped ends on the porch too.
maybe
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The hips do soften the roof. What about wrapping the porch around the right side?
Add a screened porch behind that. But it's not my money, ya know. Without knowing the inside makes it a little harder.
Landscaping would go a long way. Layer it, from the house to the porch to the stairs to the hardscaping to the sidewalks.
Couple specimen trees, spring and fall color.
Nice work on the drawing also.
Yep,
a wraparound porch was one option I had in mind.
so who's in favor of the wraparound? I 've had some feedback about the asymmetry and some folks are into the full Labowski on the front. Mike Maines, so mightI impose on you to give me the Labowski sketch? (that is a symmetrical porch? I owe you big time, I know!!
Gotta run now--I'll try to get to it tonight--
I think it's OK, but lose the arches, and the eagle. The two center pillars would look better moved outward.
Spend the money on landscaping.
A couple Blue ticks on the porch would add some down home flavor.
Since we don't really know what your tastes are, and at least I, don't know what styles of houses are seen around your part of the country - why not spend an hour or three riding around this Sunday in your area and take a few pics of houses that you do like. Ones that have the symmetric 2 story box with the front door in the center like yours. Forget the side wing for now, that can be adapted to whatever you pick for the main house. Another idea would be to spend several hours looking at house plans on line - there are literally 10s of thousands easily accessible - to identify some other ideas.
Here are some facades I Googled up in about 8 minutes without much thought:
http://www.houseplans.com/plan_details.asp?id=14154
<!----><!---->http://www.houseplans.com/plan_details.asp?id=6512
<!---->http://www.houseplans.com/plan_details.asp?id=10735
<!----> http://www.architecturaldesigns.com/craftsman-home-plan-14023dt.asphttp://details.coolhouseplans.com/details.html?pid=chp-28253&ArchStyle=Craftsman&FoundID=4&sid=chp2
<!----> http://details.coolhouseplans.com/details.html?pid=chp-27196&ArchStyle=Craftsman&FoundID=17&sid=chp2
<!----> http://details.coolhouseplans.com/details.html?pid=chp-27298&ArchStyle=Craftsman&FoundID=35&sid=chp2
<!---->
I Googled "House Plans"
<!---->
<!----><!---->I mean at this point you are already talking about spending $15k, 30k or 80k on this (depending on how far you go with it) so some serious homework is in order - other than just asking BTers for opinions. You aught to get a book on architectural styles too so that you can establish a clear direction on this project rather than missing the mark again like the first guy did.
Edited 12/12/2007 7:57 am ET by Matt
BTW, you aren't just a pretty face.You do have design talent too
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Aw shucks.
Hey, who ya callin' pretty?!
Piffin's sweet on Miiiike!! Piffin's sweet on Miiike!!
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
No, those two items "make" the design. Some slight adjustment to minimize roofline issues might be in order, but would require more thought than I have for it this AM.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
No, you're a symmetrical type of guy, but the off-center look really works here.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
Yeah, I am well balanced, ain't I?;)
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Symmetrical. You look the same coming and going.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
That is EXACTLY what I had in mind.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
thnks guys, but who's in favor of the Mike Maines design? I like it, but duh.. I'm a cabin guy, anything that looks like I can split firewood ont he deck orin front looks good to me. The compromise is the small portico in front lowered to the base ofth 2nd story, then raise the pitch of the roof...
Honestly, I like it.I like it more when the client likes it.
You are the one who has to drive up to it every day when you get home from work and look at it.
If you find yourself leaving it the way it is, you might end up running for office.
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I like it a lot. But I'm a fan of large front porches in general.
Now just get yourself a coon dog and you're set.
I have a siberian husky, pure white to match the paint on the house.
Thanks for all your feedback.
I think Mike nailed it. Question is whether you can afford it.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader