Frost on the inside of wood door
rdorton
| Posted in Energy, Heating & Insulation on
I installed new custom oak entry doors last fall. When the temp drops below about 15 degrees (which it’s done many times here in upstate NY) they develop a layer of frost over the inside of the doors. They are installed in an enclosed but unheated porch. There doesn’t seem to be too much air leakage around them and the frost is pretty evenly spread over the whole door. Any ideas on if/how I can remedey this? Thanks!
Replies
user
Could we have a bit more of information-and some might even appear odd.
Is this a dbl door or 2 individual doors? I'm assuming they open porch to outside?
What's the finish on these doors?
Frame of the house? Frame of the porch? Walls and floors? Type of windows on the porch? What's under the porch-basement/root cellar/or crawl?
Anything contributing to excessive moisture in the house/on the porch?
What direction and type of exposure of the porch.
thanks.
What did the door maker have to say?
What about the windows?
Is there condensation on them as well? If yes, its a humidity problem in the house. If no, I suspect an insulation problem on the door or some other localized solution.
Is a storm door in front of this door possible? That ought to provide adequate insulation. My .02.
Good luck.
It sounds like you have plain, vanilla frost. The humidity in the porch rises during the day, fed at least in part from moisture from the soil below. Then when the temp drops frost forms. It's kinda what Mother Nature does.
I'd suggest you have a shot at putting plastic over the dirt underneath, or stapling it to the underside of the floor joists, to keep out moisture from below.
I think this "...or stapling
I think this "...or stapling it to the underside of the floor joists..." could lead to condensation issues in the joist bays. I can see how someone could read this, crawl under there, look around a little and think, "what good would it do to put vapor barrier on the ground? Makes more sense to seal up the bottom surface of these joists. Plus, it might be EASIER! I'll give it a try. Better than nothing!"
Then, of course, spring comes, then summer and all is pretty much forgotton. But at some point, that VB on the bottom of the joists could cause water damage to the bottoms of the joists as heated air gets trapped in that space, temperature on the outside of the space drops and condensation forms on the warm side of the VB.
Do I have this wrong?
user
How cured was the finish on the doors when installed.........no way that could still be expelling moisture?
Is the exterior a dark stain? Warming the doors on the sun side, might be able to collect some condensation on the inside after the sun goes down.
Something you might have them/you try, tape a good sized pc of visqueen by the doors right on the porch floor (the way people simply test for moisture in a slab )
Let it go through a sun day and a deep freeze if possible. Should take only 1-2 days if the conditions are right. If frost forms on the underside early in the morning........maybe there's too much moisture in that space.
Beats me, stranger simple answers have happened b/4.
If the moisture is coming from the outside, from under the porch, I would think there would be ice forming on the joists and other surfaces of the porch besides the doors. Maybe he'll come back and tell us that. Be nice to have way more information.
I'm not saying I think a vapor barrier should go on the ground. Someone else said that. I question stapling one to the bottom of the joists - don't like the sounds of that at all.
The floor is warm (relatively speaking), because the soil below is warm. And the door is cold because it's exposed to the wind and is dark colored (and hence more black-body radiation).
And how can you tell that there's not ice forming on the joists anyway?
"And how can you tell that
"And how can you tell that there's not ice forming on the joists anyway?"
I can't. That's what I said, maybe the original poster will come back and answer that. Or if there's frost on other surfaces near the doors, someone mentioned windows.
frosty oak doors at porch entry..
Just reading all of the posts RE your frost problem on the oak doors.
Where are you in upsatae NY? I 'd guess you are probably close to NYC by your statement about the temp dropping to only 15 degrees recently. Its been much colder than that in upstate NY this winter as you move farther north-I know because I live quite a ways upstate!
It doesn't look like the other answers you have received about this problem are really on target so let's see if we can move this investigation up a notch or two.
How about taking a photo next time you see this condition and posting it?
I assume that your porch does not have any frost growth on any other surface except the doors-am I correct?
Also-from your statement that you are not really sure what is under the porch I assume that the porch has a solid foundation like concrete blocks. Is this assumption correct?
kx
These questions you ask have been asked b/4.
the reason there's only guesses up there is that we haven't yet heard all the answers to the questions.
Until he comes back and posts those answers, we all might just as well hold our water.
So, how far upstate are you? Is Old Forge, Eagle Bay or Inlet far enough?
thanks.
previous questions...
yes calvin i know that atleast one of my questions was asked before, but i also made some comments in my last post that had not been made before...and i asked some questions that weren't previously asked. i can not understand what you are trying to say with your last post.
some of these comments are really not very accurate either calvin. re read all of the posts, think hard about them and get back to us with another comment please!
i am currently in the fingerlakes district of NY-for past 3 years or so. i have worked in the adirondacks-in the places you mentioned in fact....long ago!
yes-if this fellow doesn't respond with additional info we can't really proceed can we?
(I do have a theory though.)
kx
can't understand? Not often very clear at all-try this.
hold our water-don't jump right up and run outside to take a leak.
Any better?
Back in the early 50's I was brought up between Eagle Bay and Inlet. Folks owned the Twin Crow Inn for a bit then. Used to go to the dump and watch the bear.
your posts...
...have become childlike calvin.
you were right when you said you were just a dumb carpenter i guess-maybe.
do you know how to do anything besides behave like a jerk?
i doubt you are a carpenter calvvin ....just plain dumb.
no one wants to see posts like yours so please just go away....and try to become useful at something other than taking a leak outside or whatever your current specialty is.
dump now closed to ignorant bear watchers-maybe you could get in though...
kx
What in the world precipated your post?
yeah...i guess i did...
...rant a bit in the last post calvin.
i will apologize for my caustic remarks.
i guess i was getting a somewhat cavalier attitude from some of your posts-particularly those with your "humorous" remarks.
i just felt that as an editor or monitor of the forum some of your comments were off base.
i admit i was wrong to post my venting remarks...let's see if we can start anew.
i actually enjoyed many of your posts that i read on this forum
.sorry for the misaligned post-and please keep up your good efforts here.
kx
I guess the apology is accepted. Is there any chance now that you believe I've been in the trade over 40 yrs and no the first 5 weren't spent sweeping the decks for my father?
And no I'm not an editor. Dan Morrison con'd me into taking the button to delete the spam posts in hopes that this forum software would be improved to be more usable etc. Well, Dan has gone on to Hanley-Wood and changes have been zip.
I'd like to suggest you take a breath and get to know this place a bit.
And the bear? Well, as a young boy soon destined to be moved to the inner city of Cleveland in a short time, those dump visits and those first few years in the woods were surely woth the price of admission.
oh yeah, if you should ever want to point out a comment or post you don't agree with........link it or quote it so one might have an idea what the problem is.
thanks.
bears...
...yep-i recall visiting old forge dump as a kid and seeing the bears come out around dusk-you are right-worth the price of admission.
one of the troopers up there told me they began to fear for people's safety when too many people wanted to try and lure the bears closer for photo ops, etc.
as for the forum-i like the idea-used to read ithem in the mag about 30 years ago when i subscribed and really enjoyed them back then.
today-i rarely read the mag-got too commercialized and i suppose necessarily had to appeal to those less in the know than old timers like you and i! the forums and tips that i used to enjoy in the mag have become-in general-less appealing to me as a reader.
i do realize that the mag is not really intended to appeal to people on our level calvin.
when i see inaccuraye info being posted on this forum in answer to someone's legitimate request for advice i have to advocate for the original poster and point out the errors i find in other posts. i believe that this posting activity will at least help to open the eyes of some of the unsuspecting question askers-and this indeed has happened!
i will try to refrain a bit more from being too negative in some of my replies in the future calvin!
This particular forum is in an area i happen to know quite a bit about-both in theory and in practical application of energy saving procedures. i did work actively as a home energy auditor and have been properly trained and also certified as a home energy auditor.
even before that venture however i had very good training by attending NY State energy dept training seminars in the 80's on topics like radon mitigation, super insulated building techniques and general building science about energy savings.
if i saw more postings here containing accurate information about these topics i would not feel inclined to post as much as i have been recently. i am not seeing many posts that are accurate however so i feel i need to continue my effort.
as an example-would you please take time now to post what you know about relative humidity-the definition and exdplanation of what that term means?i would be very interested to see your post-and i am asking you to do off the top of your head without doing any research.
this is a hot topic for me currently on this forum.
i know you have lots of knowledge if you have 40 years in the remodeling business calvin! (I have over 50 yrs by the way!)
so lets see what you have to say about RH!!
thanks for not being too pissed at me!
You've done nothing but flame and bait since you arrived here. (Well, that and spread a lot of misinformation.) I've never met Calvin but I know he's a sharp guy and I have a lot of respect for him. (If nothing else he takes a lot of guff with reasonably good humor.)
You, on the other hand, I'm within a gnat's eyelash from putting on ignore, along with DoRight, JoeH, and a bunch of other idiots that are a waste of time and keystrokes.
thanks dan...
..for another useful but meaningless post !
my posts correcting misinformation will continue whenever i encounter such posts.
ignore my posts?
good-won't make any difference as long as you continue to post misinformation here.
maybe you really are some kind of engineer-you certainly have the i know more than anyone else attitude that many of them seem to like to display-erroneously i might add!
oh yes dan..
..i agree wholeheartedly with your praise for calvin-a very sharp guy and very experienced at posting etiquette!
sure glad he is here!
kxm1 wrote:
...have become childlike calvin.
you were right when you said you were just a dumb carpenter i guess-maybe.
do you know how to do anything besides behave like a jerk?
i doubt you are a carpenter calvvin ....just plain dumb.
no one wants to see posts like yours so please just go away....and try to become useful at something other than taking a leak outside or whatever your current specialty is.
dump now closed to ignorant bear watchers-maybe you could get in though...
Now, this was the first insult that caught my eye.
You were very gracious in your apology.
and that's all well and good, but
Then you lay on the praises of me to Dan like you and he are best buddies, shortly after reaming him out.
So you see kx, I'm a bit confused.
You fire right off with and about whatever you are thinking about ..............and it seems as if you type a fuzz faster than you think things out.
You need to slow down a bit and also take on a modicum of ..................what's it called? You
can'tshouldn't show up, post to a few threads related to your area of alleged expertise and then denounce all responses as invalid. You did it to me and if you can find and quote the misinformation I wrote and post it here, I'd have some idea of what it is you find so wrong. Next thing I know, you come with the praise. So, which is it?You should know that many of the replies made are trying to draw out the information that wasn't put in the original post. So, necessarily there's a myriad of stuff posted in order to get that information out. Further, unless you know everything, maybe just maybe-you might not be the one with the ONLY answer.
As for relative humidity...............I know when it's humid and when it's dry. When the weatherman comes on in the morning and recites the book learning about dew point and the temps and how they interact and then says.............".man, it's going to be hot and humid out there today"..............and it isn't......................well, he's evidently not worked construction in the summer in Ohio.
He'd have done better if he just stepped outside once in a while.
No?
So, while your knowledge might be of value here in these discussions, try to temper your enthusiasm with a little decorum.
thanks.
just saw your post....
calvin....will answer later by message to you.
as for dan and mark h-you need to re read what they have written to me!
i had to cut them both off recently!
i will send you a msg later this evening or tomorrow morning to go over some of your comments...but for now all i can say is read what i have written and try to not take it out of context.
my apology to you was very sincere calvin, but you did throw me off slightly with your adirondack humor!
im ok with it now though...;
later
tried to send a msg
to you calvin...not allowed!
got any suggestions?
Beats me
Click on my name-it'll take you to my profile and at the bottom of that is "send a private message" or something like that. click on it and post the message.
Just finished responding to one just now, so it works.
yup...
i tried that...says my account is too new for messaging....so...check your reg email msgs calvin...
I did find out that the underside of the porch was iinsulated with spray foam several years ago, but I haven't been able to crawl under there to verify the condition. I am located in the Catskill Mtns in NY and we have had much colder weather than 15 degrees but this is the point at which the frost begins to form. I will try to get some pics of it. I am going to try the plastic on the floor just to see if the moisture is coming from there. There is condensation that forms along the bottom of the glass of the windows but not to the extent of the doors and it doesn't freeze either.
Thank
Appreciate you coming back-some of the natives were restless. It would be interesting to find out more on the situation and hear of the solution.
Like I suggested earlier, I'm betting that the door is a relatively dark color. I'd further bet that the way the door faces has an exposure to the sky without a lot of trees in the way. This results in heat loss due to "black body radiation" on clear nights and can lower a surface as much as 10F below air temp.
It is a dark color and that's exactly the situation. Is there anything that can be done? Aside from planting trees and painting the door white. Guess I should have paid more attention in high school physics.
Well, try to reduce the humidity coming into the porch -- spread plastic on the ground or whatever.
But the process is fairly "natural", and will not seriously harm the door, so long as the finish is intact.
don't take this...
...as the absolute answer to your problem-please!
continue investigating for source of moisture infiltration to the porch and see where that leads before jumping to a conclusion like this!
thanks
for the update. can't wait to find out what you discover with the poly over the floor test.
i have a theory about the cause-in part anyways-of the frost on the doors, but i am not certain enough of it's accuracy to want to post it yet. one other post did kind of touch on my theory already...