It’s been about ten years since I’ve done my last stain grade crown molding. I’m setting up a showroom for a cabinet supplier and the molding is all prefinished so everything has to be pristine. There are finish kits that come with it, but I spent 9 hours installing 11 pieces of crown that totalled 15 feet on one display. I didn’t lose $ because it is an hourly contract, but I’m used to coping MDF and slapping the caulk on to clean it up. Does it take everyone else 45 minutes to cope a typical crown molding with a few intricate details?? Framing walls and rafter framing makes me happy because I’m always going full speed. I don’t have a problem doing the work, I just don’t know if there are secrets that I am missing?
Thanks,
Dustin
Replies
I stopped coping pre-finished crown, can't see any advantage on top of a cabinet. I also add a temporary table to the saw. This gives much better support and you know exactly where the blade will cut. I add a crown backer to cabinets which holds the molding at a consistent angle, lets me glue instead of nailing and makes the miters fit better.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
I usually don't cope prefinished crown either.
take my time and set the cab's as close to perfect as possible ...
makes for an easier time running the trims.
I also cut, clamp and hold and fit ... various methods ... to fit as much of it "loose" as possible ... then when it fits just right ... back to the assembly table to get "markered", glued and pinned ... and pre-assemble as much as possible.
"markered" ... refers to taking the matching stain marker ... and color in the fresh cut wood just at the stain'd line ... part that'll be covered up in theory and glued tight.
I darken that line ... 'cause I work in the real world and sometimes that perfect fit ain't perfect once the pin nails are shot ... and a dark line hides the minor inperfection ... and it's hard to get that little light line down the center of that miter once glue gets smeared in it.
I actually have an easier time with prefinished stain grade than any other crown.
not sure why ... but those miters and occasional copes always fit better.
might just slow down more and take more time?
but I always say it's easier to hide an open miter on dark than light.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Edited 1/25/2008 4:58 pm ET by JeffBuck
"Markered" excellent tip Thanks!
Any tips on how to temporarily hold pieces in place working solo?
I don't usually cope pre-finished either. All cut edges get hit with the touch-up kit markers, or something close. I try to assemble as many pieces as I can lift without knocking them apart. Make them up on a hollow core door and put waxed paper under the joints. Super kinda glue, collins clamps, then micro pins.Depending on the situation, we might put glue blocks on top of the cabinets. And depending on the cabinets, we might notch protruding stiles... which can help hold the crown assembly up there til we can hit it with the framing nailer. Winterlude, Winterlude, my little daisy,
Winterlude by the telephone wire,
Winterlude, it's makin' me lazy,
Come on, sit by the logs in the fire.
The moonlight reflects from the window
Where the snowflakes, they cover the sand.
Come out tonight, ev'rything will be tight,
Winterlude, this dude thinks you're grand.
more good advice I fogot to mention regarding the marker. I too prefit several pieces before nailing home. setting cabs straight , level, flat planes also make things easier for the trim. good advice jeff"it aint the work I mind,
It's the feeling of falling further behind."Bozini Latinihttp://www.ingrainedwoodworking.com
The finish kits weren't there yet. I actually suggested "markering" when I started and the kits, weren't there.
minwax makes some markers, I think.
pretty sure that's what I have. I have a bag fulla different stuff.
left overs from cab installs, furniture repair stuff, and flooring matches.
Bruce Hardwoods make soem nice fill latex tubes.
Minwax has some fill sticks ... and I think the markers too.
plus ... save any and all from the various cabinet installs.
wonder if Neff sels their stuff seperate?
they provide killer instal kits!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
The photo of the crown backer is an amazing tip. Thanks. Are you placing the backer once the cabinets are up?. If so, do you sometimes attach them through the inside of the cabinets due to lack of space above the cabinets?
It depends on the job. I like to attach the backer before I install the upper units. I may apply the crown also, before lifting them. It wouldn't make sense to do this on a long run but three or four adjacent units isn't too difficult. Bumped up corners, range hoods and other cabinets that aren't in line with the rest, often get the molding applied before lifting. I see a lot of different types of crown molding as well as different cabinets. On some, the space above the doors is too tight to allow mounting a crown. Sometimes the crown is made up of multiple moldings on a freize. There can be soffits or cabinets that go to the ceiling. One approach doesn't fit every situation.I use a Sioux/Milwaukee angle drill which can get into some tight spots. On standard ceiling heights, I have enough room to work after the cabinets are up, if necessary. There have been times I have made the crown as a separate cap piece and attached up through the cabinet. Other times I have built a secondary top so folks can display items and not be hidden by the projection of the moldings. I don't like to use nails anymore but I may use a pin now and then. Most times I use construction adhesive and clamps. I use Weldwood all purpose on miters and returns. Yellow glue may make small returns warp, plus you need to clamp them tight. You just press the parts together with the Weldwood. The combination of continuous backer and adhesive means you can almost do chin ups on the crown, it doesn't move or open up a few months down the road. I find you have to be very precise with the angle and fit of the backer. If you have it right, the miters don't need any fussing. It's a nightmare if you are off just a little. Of course, having a good blade and accurate saw are important. Some cabinets are difficult to attach a backer to, especially ones that use pocket screws on the faceframe. You have to stay back 3-4" with your screws or risk splitting. You have to keep these in mind even if you are just nailing up moldings, I hate it when a nail hits a pocket screw and comes back out on the face. 1/2" particle board sides are touchy for screws, too. Adhesive and trimhead screws work pretty well in most situations, even if you can only get one screw in a corner. You have to be pretty careful with most manufactured cabinetry, pre-drilling and watching where you put every fastener.Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Two things that make coping go slow: using a coping saw on hardwoods, and having difficulty visualizing the coping angle. My Bosch jigsaw is too old (25 years) to accept a Collins Coping Foot, and it refuses to wear out so I can get a new one. But that's the best way to speed things up.
To visualize the angle, and not waste time backcutting too much here, and not enough there, make a U-shaped wood cradle that supports the crown with its wall edge flat on the bench. The ceiling edge rests against the back of the cradle. Hold a scrap of the crown you're using up to the inside corner of your rafter square to get the measurements for your cradle.
For example, I think 4 1/4" crown extends out from the wall something around 2 1/2", and down from the ceiling something like 3 1/2". Make your cradle 3 1/2" wide, and about 2 3/8" tall. The crown will stick up just enough that you can clamp it to the bench securely.
Now you're ready to cut and rasp. The advantage to this setup is that the coping line is straight up and down-- tip your saw and your rasps a bit out of plumb for the perfect backcut. It goes pretty fast this way.
If you don't have a Collins Foot, get the best coping saw that you can find-- they're all pretty wimpy. Buy a couple of really good cabinet rasps. They'll set you back a surprising amount, but they're worth it. Sticky sandpaper on a scrap of wood is good for cleaning up square inside corners.
Good luck!
No kiddin on the cost of a good cabinet rasp. I use Nicholsons and can get a few years out of one, and thank goodness for that at 40+ bucks pop.
A tip I have for the 4 in 1 hand rasps ( that really are not good for much) is to ues a belt sander to grind the sides down..it gets the teeth closer to the edge, for them little returns in a coped crown, and doubles as a "Safe" edge, so you can't scar up the adjoining surface that you are whittling on.
In a Luthiers shop we could eat up that Pattern Makers Rasp ( #44?) in a few weeks..someone was selling some dip techinque that was supposed to "sharpen" the rasps, by acid etching..lemme tell ya now before ya do what I did..don't even consider it. It turned a dulled , but servicable rasp, into nothing good but tool blank steel.
BTW, I know of where I speak..I have made my own rasps out of flat stock..talk about a guy that needs a new hobby. (G)Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
I've thought about doing that to a four-in-hand-- I've ground a safe edge on a file before, but that was a lot less grinding than taking off almost 1/8"! Maybe I'll try it though.I couldn't view that video (I've got an old coal-burning Mac), but I've done it with an angle grinder, too. Shattered a few pieces of pine crown, too. I didn't have that problem with cherry, but the dust with any wood is terrible-- you feel it every time you blink for the next hour. Maybe I was going too coarse with that pine, but going too fine sends up an awful lot of smoke.For shoe I've had good luck with a half-round rasp blade in my Bosch jigsaw, mounted upside-down in a table. That works great. It's fast and very easy to control. Downsides are that you have to shim under the work right by the blade if you want to backcut, and you have to swing the other end of the stick in a wide arc-- you need lots of room for long sticks.
"I have made my own rasps out of flat stock..talk about a guy that needs a new hobby. (G)"Alright, now you did it.
How?
No lettin' go 'till you say.This is the kind of thing that fuels my engines.
First ya need to make the chisel that cuts the sliver that becomes a rasp tooth. Just octagonal stock steel frm MSC or McMaster. I don't have a true anvil so I use a hunk of railroad track..some how I have aquired two, about 16" long..don't recall from where.
Anyway, fleamarket files, the BIG flat mill files that are worn out work best..belt grind most of the file pattern away, but leave the faint lines. Chuck the file blank in a hot ,hot wood stove or what have you...Oxy torch will work too..just get between straw and red hot.
Slap it down in the anvil/track and a c-clamp...hold the striking chisel at a shallow angle, with the corner digging in ( you have to grind the tip just so) and whack it. Just enough to raise a curl, work AWAY from the curl to step off a new curl on the faint file line..and repeat..if you get too close together you can mash the last curl/tooth ya just made.
Keep punching up a curl till the steel is too cool..and reheat, you can get a rythem going and get quite a few teeth before it gets too cold. After ya like what ya have, reheat to straw, and dunk it in a bucket to make it hard..rasps are not as hard as files, cuz they are not for metal.
Hard to explain with words and typeing, but a quick hands on lesson lasts a life time. Gunsmiths in Col.Williamsburg were the best tool makers I have ever seen.
Oh yeah, large cut nails are good for tooth chisels too..I forgot about that. Great steel.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
Too cool. I'm filing this away (not to make a pun). Thanks.
Actually, I may have misspoke, the newly created tool would more properly be called a Float I think..damm it's been a long time.
Moulding plane makers called thier rasps, floats. With the availabilty of so many kinds of Rifflers for sculpting, and no one making planes that much ( I mean complex wood bodied planes) any more, the need to make custom rasp/floats is not as common.
But I like any excuse to mess around with hot steel and use a tool I made for task.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
Another affirmation on the cost of files / rasps. i hit garage sales and search. i found an outstanding alternative is the Microplaneâ„¢ products there a good assortment. And easily replaced .http://www.microplane.com
Edited 1/27/2008 10:28 am ET by alias
10-4! I LOVE them..got the wiff a flat one for cheese grating and stuff..thems sharp stuff tho', not for the uninitiated..LOLSpheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
Try a dremel tool. Rough cut with coping saw than clean up with dremel. I also cope the crown as its installed.It me helps to visualize the cope angle.
There was an article in FHB a while back where the coping was done with an angle grinder. I've not done that yet myself, but I have about 100 lf of walnut crown to do and I'm planning to go the angle grinder route.
Regards,
Roger
Right angle grinder 36 grit paper...stay outta the way...quick and dusty...but quickDan
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=75981.39DougU made a video for us all to learn from. Worth a watch.
TFB (Bill)
No copey crown. Some crowns the cope has to be so paper thin it is a major pia. I have the benefit of using a 12 sliding miter saw so I stand the crown up as it sits on the wall and cut away. much much easier.
The primary reasons for coping do not usually apply to cabinet crown. The angles should be good for standard miters, and the runs are usually short enough that the wood should not shrink enough to open miters up.
The best thing for improving your speed and quality would be to work with a really good cabinet installer for a few days.
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Dustin
I don't cope crown that goes on cabinets. You don't ever see crown on a piece of furniture coped do you?
I don't mind coping prefinished crown but no reason to for cabinetry.
Doug
I just viewed your video
very impressive!
kudos!
Gord
I have worked as a cabinet installer for many years. Although I've moved on to basic house trimming and renovation work the key thing I've come to realize is that prefinished crown is a different animal than paint or stain grade crown. First - most prefinished crown is hardwood and is milled from thicker stock. much hardr to cope. I've coped it by hand, with a jigsaw (collins foot), and on a tablesaw. bottom line is it is not that nessescary. On cabinets the angles are 90's or 45's and are easy to find the corect miter angle to make a tight joint. coping comes into play as a benifit when the walls could vary from 85 degrees to 95 degrees, same cope works in all cases. Second I found the real blessing to cabinet crown is miter clamps (collins is the one I use but there are several). they help keep things aligned so nailing and glueing is precise (since sanding is not an option) a micropinner on the miters is nice to have and leaves very small holes. I usually use a nailing cleat on the cabinets and just pin the crown to that. Sometimes I've even screwed the backside of inside miters to get them tight.
Keep the saw close by because minor adjustments are always needed. Finally - a belt sander is your best friend. Belt sand away some of the hidden stock on the miter so that the front face stays tight. just leave enough surface for a glue joint. sometimes I even make small adjustments to the miter angle itself with the belt sander. It's definitely not as fast as running basic trim but with practice you will get faster. patience is the key .
"it aint the work I mind,
It's the feeling of falling further behind."
Bozini Latini
http://www.ingrainedwoodworking.com
As you can see from the above posts, the trimmers don't really cope prefinished stock. Basswood, Jeff Buck and HVTrim pretty much said it all.
A few suggestions. When doing any kind of finish mitering on crown, or even when mitering for cope cuts (although it's not quite as critical), I always use an auxiliary fence on my miter saw that has been adjusted to the crown's angle set. I always cut crown the old way of backwards & upside down. The larger 12" saw is perfect for this type of cutting.
The fence I made has an adjustable bottom piece that slides back & forth and locks in place to fit the cut angle. This way you know that every cut will be the same.
Also, before every high end prefinished trim job I always check my saw cut to see that nothing has slipped on the saw and then I reset it if it has.
I use glue blocks & cleats, a dab of PL glue in back and yellow glue on the joints. Any joints I usually pin with the 23 gauge nailer or if I can get away with it, I dab some hot glue on underneath to act as a clamp for the slower setting PL or yellow glue. Once in a while I will use blue tape to clamp the little outside miter joints.
For coping I use the angle grinder in conjunction with the cope saw to get really fine nooks. I have done all the other types of coping, Collins, EZ Cut, regular cope saw, and have found the grinder to be the best. Trouble is you really have to spend time on the learning curve with it, but once you get it, it's great. Very fast.
On this type of trim, learn the secrets & techniques, learn how to work fast & accurately, but...forget about the amount of time it takes, because it's going to if you're going to do it right.
Ive never coped crown on cabinets. Its real easy to just do the miters and glue.
Ive used biscuits on larger crown but dont know that it was needed.
a 23gage finish nailer is a friend to have for outside miters. also the little sharp spring clamps (i think i got from Collins at the JLC show) work great to help on outside miters.
A few things that work for me are...
1. Use a regular chop saw not a slider if there is much less binding on a regular chopper.
2. Def clamp a stop to the say to hold it at a consistent angle everytime.
3. I personally like to use the angle grinder for coping. Put a 36grit disc in with a backer pad. When using it Lock the trigger and hold it by wrapping your hand right around the head by the guard with your primary hand and hold the peice with your other hand.
4. As for what material to remove...Hold the peice up like it would go and look square through the peice imagining basially parallel to the peice that your coping into.
5. Get it as close as you can with the grinder and a utility knife will finish up the job.
it's one of those things that until you've mastered it, it will eat at your brain. It isn't as much a technical skill as a mental skill. if you know what the piece needs on the table, then it works when you climb up to fit it. It's no different with framing, shingling, tile, whatever... The problem I unfotunately have is a lack of experience with prefinished molding and it took me way to long to put these pieces together properly. The good news is that nothing got screwed up and we didn't have to order more. Iappreciate everyones help and advice and I'm going to get a few sticks of cheap FJ crown and try everything to see what works best for me.
Thanks,
Dustin
One thing I don't think that was mentioned.........Given sufficient material, I somethimes will cut two 12" pieces and cut inside mitres on one and outside mitres on the other.
This is to have a peice to try fit the pieces I am working on.
Biggest headache I have with cabinets is crown to the ceiling when the ceilings are whacky.
Good luck.[email protected]
"One thing I don't think that was mentioned.........Given sufficient material, I somethimes will cut two 12" pieces and cut inside mitres on one and outside mitres on the other."That's become common practice for me. I do it every time. I will do it with cope cuts as well.
You might find oil Color Putty http://www.colorputty.com/ helpful in addition to the Minwax Blend-Fil pencils Jeff mentioned. A lot of color choices so it's easy to get a good match. Between the pencils and putty you shold be pretty well covered. I also keep some latex caulk in sqeeze tubes in varying colors. Sometimes I'll find daylight showing between the crown and the cabinet (not surprising given the walls and cabinets we're given to deal with)- a bead of caulk on the backside of the crown fixes it. Not fine homebuilding perhaps but it makes it look better.
http://www.cabinetparts.com/shop_2006/part_details/?id=FC-WAXKIT20S&cat=1312&manufacturer=Fastcap This is a pretty good system also......
I posted some of these in another thread and these pics are not of crown on cabinets, but it is a similar situation (crown on columns and headers).I cut and test fit all the pieces and then assemble as much as I can on a work bench and then install. I use 23ga. micro pins, Titebond Molding Glue, and Collins Clamps. The header assembly is about a 7' run and is 7 pieces of crown.The crown that joins the column returns is coped (with a grinder) but the other inside corners are mitered.