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Full foundation replacement. Any experience?

user-1035959 | Posted in General Discussion on July 16, 2012 01:05am

I have an older house with a problem foundation. Rather than try to fix all of the problems (structural, bowing walls, water proofing, insulation) I wonder if it wouldn’t just be smarter to replace it, including the floor.

Obviously it’s a HUGE undertaking. There’s a couple of ways of doing based on the research I’ve done. One would be shoring up the house with jacks that redistribute the load so the old walls can be demolished and new ones built. The other involving lifting up the house, demolishing old foundation and building a new one (and giving the opportunity to gain my height). I’m not sure how much the difference in cost is between the two.

Has anyone ever had this done or known anyone who had it done? My house is old. It’s in pretty good shape except the foundation is starting to crumble. Is this type of work “risky” in terms of the stress it could put on the framing? Is it possible that the house would collapse?

Thanks!

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  1. User avater
    BossHog | Jul 16, 2012 05:33pm | #1

    A neighbor had his basement dug out and the basement replaced in sections. It was a long, expensive project. A couple of times they thought the house was gonan fall in.

    I've heard of house movers moving a house out of the way while a new basement was installed, and then the house was moved back on top of it. Don't know if that would be any cheaper, but it sure would be easier and less dangerous.

  2. user-1035959 | Jul 16, 2012 11:15pm | #2

    Thanks to both of you for chiming in.

    I would love to have this done, but afraid of the risk. The cracking of the drywall is not an expensive fix so I'm not worried about that happening. What I worry about is a collapse or structural damage to the house. After all, the framing is only nailed together right?

    I have a hundred year old house. The foundation is not in severely bad shape, but it's getting there. I probably have another 5-10 years before serious problems start happening? It's hard to say. The house isn't level and square which bothers me. I could put in a couple of new beams to try to level the floors upstairs, but it might not work. If I do a full foundation replacement, I'd definitely have new steel seamless beams put in.

    Based on the research I've done and the people I've talked to, I'd be looking at between 40-50k. It costs about 15k to pick up the house. Of course it get interesting if I wanted to run some plumbing from the new basement because the sewer and drain lines might not be sloped properly for the basement plumbing to flow.

    1. davidmeiland | Jul 17, 2012 12:41pm | #3

      Straightforward and done all the time

      I wouldn't worry much about the structure as long as you get the house lifted and supported on proper cribs. An experienced house mover will do it so that you can excavate and pour concrete for a new foundation without a problem, then lower it onto the foundation. You can expect a lot of siding work, replacement of porches, loss of masonry chimneys, etc. I did it to my house (circa 1923) in about a month total, working with one other carpenter. I hired a house mover for the lift. My crawl space is now about as nice and clean as the lobby of a fancy Paris hotel, the floors are flat, it's bolted down, the drainage is all taken care of... good for another hundred years I hope.

      If you can go into it with $50K to spend you should be good, and you're right, 15 is for the lift. Budget a bit for structural engineering.

      1. user-1035959 | Jul 17, 2012 05:53pm | #4

        Thanks for the info!

        Did the lift do any damage to your windows? I ask because I put in some nice replacement windows about a year ago. One of them was a huge a bay window and it was $$$. I worry about that more than drywall cracks.

        So you just replaced the foundation and kept a crawlspace? Did you consider digging it out deeper or jacking the house up so you could have a full basement? Or was it cost prohibitive?

        The way I see it, it would make sense to get just go for a full 8 ft finished basement. Since the house is already up and the expense to lift it is already undertaken, why not just jack it up another foot and dig the foundation a foot lower?

        I am also told that this type of job would require the house to be unoccupied for roughly 3 weeks while the work is done and the utilities have to be disconnected during that time.

        1. User avater
          BossHog | Jul 17, 2012 09:45pm | #5

          "I am also told that this

          "I am also told that this type of job would require the house to be unoccupied for roughly 3 weeks while the work is done and the utilities have to be disconnected during that time."

          I think all of that is accurate except the 3 weeks.  I'd guess more like 3 or 4 months.

          1. DanH | Jul 17, 2012 10:18pm | #6

            It varies a lot depending on the technique.  If the foundation is rebuilt in parts there need be no interruption.  And certainly a good crew, with the proper equipment, could raise a house onto cribbing, rebuild the foundation, lower it back, and reconnect the utlities in the space of 2-3 weeks.  It all depends on planning, motivation, and the other kind of motivation.

            Most foundation rebuilds take longer, however, since the house is usually extensively rehabbed at the same time.  No sense spending the money to rush things through on the foundation if the house will be unoccupied during the rehab anyway.

        2. DanH | Jul 17, 2012 10:20pm | #7

          Houses are moved all the time without damaging the windows.  Rebuilding a foundation should be no more stressful on the house than moving it.

        3. Piffin | Jul 22, 2012 08:35am | #10

          Hello

          I have done this for a few homes. There are a ton of variables. Size and style of the house is one big one. With an estimate of 40-50K I assume yours is not large or a challenging shape.

          Check references on the house mover or contractor. Some of these guys are very meticulous and careful so there is little damage even to sheetrock cracking. Others are rough cowboys who are in a hurry and don't do enough thinking. With a good man in charge, I would not worry about windows and you can get masonry chimenys too, tho sometimes it is better and cheaper to replace exterior ones.

          It is possible to live in a house while doing this, BUT not adviseable. As a contractor I would have to charge a lot more to keep it liveable, and it would slow the job down. Far cheaper to move out for a month or so.

          If you have large acreage, the least expensive way to go is to build a new foundtion and just move the house over to it.

          Space is an issue when it comes to digging equipment around the supporting beams and cribbing.

          Liability also if you have one guy jacking the house up and another doing the other work. Who is to blame if the digger undercuts the cribbing....

          Most movers want to move the house and be done. If you have them jack it up and leave it, then come back later to set it down and retrieve the beams and cribbing, you have their equipment tied up for whatever amt of time so there is an extra charge.

          As to digging doiwn deeper, I would want to know why the foundation is at the depth you have now. Could be your normal water table for ground water is there and you would have drainage issues if you go deeper. Or could be granite ledge just below.

    2. Hennilow | Feb 19, 2014 12:58pm | #25

      Just out of curiosity... did you ever lift your house and replace the foundation?  I am looking into something very simliar.  My house is old and has had Multiple add-on's.  I'm concerned about being able to have it lifted.  But the foundation is not very sturdy and i am dreading the process.  I also am hit with living in a flood area and my insurance significantly increasing so raising the house would be a major cost saver for me.

      Thanks!

  3. IdahoDon | Jul 19, 2012 11:18pm | #8

    I've done this and worked with other contractors in our historic district that do basement replacments.

    It's relatively easy to level a house in place and take out half the foundation, repour, wait a few weeks to a month for the concrete to harden, put the pressure on the new section and move to the other side.  It's not worth trying to live in the house since it's very disruptive to all the mechanical systems in most cases, and it takes longer - probably 3 times a long as just lifting the entire house and doing it all in one shot.   The foundation has to be poured with a wetter concrete mix if the house is not lifted higher than normal since it's much harder to get the viberator in there and it is usually a little low so there's room to get the concrete in and the difference is made up with a number of plates or even a pony wall in some cases.

    Another option is only doing about a quarter of the foundation at a time and it's much easier to allow the house to be occupied since it's realatively safe even in the worst case.  If it were my personal house and I had more time than money I'd do it this way - the cost of bracing is minimal, but the extra time involved in doing 4 separate pours that all have to work together makes this a poor choice for the client unless there is some reason they don't mind paying extra to continue living in the space.

    When you're lifting the entire house the house mover should be working with an engineer to design the bracing under the house and the crib locations.   Each house is different and the larger and more ellaborate the house the more important the engineer becomes.   Some houses have a higher probability of something going wrong - don't believe that there aren't problems, especially with older houses that are many inches out of level and have been for many decades.  Some framing can't be made to go straight without damage.  Time is a factor - if the house needs to be set back down asap sometimes the worst framing has to be cut out and replaced.

    Depending on your area you might get a house lifted and set back down for $10k or less if it's a simple house, but that won't include digging out the old foundation.   If you have a little 1,200 sqft ranch I'd feel comfortable with just about anyone doing the work even if an engineer wasn't used (I'd bet most insurance companies require an engineer to be consulted) since the beams and cribbing are so over built for something this small.   However if you have multiple stories, a strange footprint, brick exterior, or other factors that absolutely have to be done right then I'd be less interested in the low bidder. 

    The worst case is while your house is sitting up on cribs you get a rain downpour friday afternoon and the ground softens under a crib (often the entire house is sitting on only 4 cribs) and your house mover can't be reached to come over and jack the house up where it should be.   A friend of mine had a tall narrow 2 story house almost reach the point it would have been too risky to be under it to adjust the cribs.   If I remember the engineer's comments correctly, it was about 24 hours away from reaching that point. If your house falls over onto the neighbors house the mover better have good insurance.

    My projects with ICF walls, 9' ceilings, radiant heat, large window wells, and large windows are some of the nicest parts of the home - they don't feel or look like basement space and the temperatures remain quite consistent so it's not drafty feeling.  I cringe when I see full basements replaced with small windows, no insulation, and minimal window wells that don't allow much light to reach the windows.

    There is nothing especially technically challenging about any of this, but poor judgement can make for some interesting problems.

    1. user-1035959 | Jul 21, 2012 12:54am | #9

      Thanks!

      IdahoDon wrote:

      I've done this and worked with other contractors in our historic district that do basement replacments.

      It's relatively easy to level a house in place and take out half the foundation, repour, wait a few weeks to a month for the concrete to harden, put the pressure on the new section and move to the other side.  It's not worth trying to live in the house since it's very disruptive to all the mechanical systems in most cases, and it takes longer - probably 3 times a long as just lifting the entire house and doing it all in one shot.   The foundation has to be poured with a wetter concrete mix if the house is not lifted higher than normal since it's much harder to get the viberator in there and it is usually a little low so there's room to get the concrete in and the difference is made up with a number of plates or even a pony wall in some cases.

      Another option is only doing about a quarter of the foundation at a time and it's much easier to allow the house to be occupied since it's realatively safe even in the worst case.  If it were my personal house and I had more time than money I'd do it this way - the cost of bracing is minimal, but the extra time involved in doing 4 separate pours that all have to work together makes this a poor choice for the client unless there is some reason they don't mind paying extra to continue living in the space.

      When you're lifting the entire house the house mover should be working with an engineer to design the bracing under the house and the crib locations.   Each house is different and the larger and more ellaborate the house the more important the engineer becomes.   Some houses have a higher probability of something going wrong - don't believe that there aren't problems, especially with older houses that are many inches out of level and have been for many decades.  Some framing can't be made to go straight without damage.  Time is a factor - if the house needs to be set back down asap sometimes the worst framing has to be cut out and replaced.

      Depending on your area you might get a house lifted and set back down for $10k or less if it's a simple house, but that won't include digging out the old foundation.   If you have a little 1,200 sqft ranch I'd feel comfortable with just about anyone doing the work even if an engineer wasn't used (I'd bet most insurance companies require an engineer to be consulted) since the beams and cribbing are so over built for something this small.   However if you have multiple stories, a strange footprint, brick exterior, or other factors that absolutely have to be done right then I'd be less interested in the low bidder. 

      The worst case is while your house is sitting up on cribs you get a rain downpour friday afternoon and the ground softens under a crib (often the entire house is sitting on only 4 cribs) and your house mover can't be reached to come over and jack the house up where it should be.   A friend of mine had a tall narrow 2 story house almost reach the point it would have been too risky to be under it to adjust the cribs.   If I remember the engineer's comments correctly, it was about 24 hours away from reaching that point. If your house falls over onto the neighbors house the mover better have good insurance.

      My projects with ICF walls, 9' ceilings, radiant heat, large window wells, and large windows are some of the nicest parts of the home - they don't feel or look like basement space and the temperatures remain quite consistent so it's not drafty feeling.  I cringe when I see full basements replaced with small windows, no insulation, and minimal window wells that don't allow much light to reach the windows.

      There is nothing especially technically challenging about any of this, but poor judgement can make for some interesting problems.

      Wow, thanks for the information!

      The house certainly isn't level. It's not a huge amount off though IMO. It has been unlevel for quite a few years I understand. The house is almost 100 years old.

      Foundation material is red tile. There's no rebar in it, no damp-proofing would have been applied on the outside, and the ceiling is low (maybe 6'3 at the most?). I don't even think this foundation has footings.

      House is small (less than 800 sq ft) and it's a pretty simple layout (not any bump outs or anything) except for the front porch.

      The mortar in the foundation walls is crumbling which most concerns me right now. I've addressed the moisture and drainage issues outside as best as I can and I don't get any liquid moisture problems, just humidity (which I manage easily with a small dehumidifier).

      I've talked to one guy who does new foundations with ICF and he bid my house a little over 50k which also includes new beams (I am needing a new main beam pretty bad).

      I'm not sure what to do. I have wondered if I could replace the main beam NOW and just wait on the foundation until I decide how long I'm going to live here and how much money I can afford to spend. The main beam issue scares me. I think I probably have a few years on the foundation before it requires serious attention.

      1. Piffin | Jul 22, 2012 08:47am | #12

        "I have wondered if I could

        "I have wondered if I could replace the main beam NOW and just wait on the foundation"

        Wondering is all we can do without seeing the situation. Is there any way you can post photos here?

        Speaking generally, I'd say yes. I know of dozens of these type houses with ongoing repairs and shoring up to get by.

        Your old mortar is most likely lime based rather than modern portland cement based. The lime slowly migrates out of the mix as water moves thru leaching the lime away, and leaving only the sand behind.

    2. Piffin | Jul 22, 2012 08:41am | #11

      Good post Don, but concrete should NOT be mixed wetter to move it. Adding plasticizer does that job without compromising the integrity of the finished product.

      Wish we had some photos of this existing problem, the house, and the site. We could be more speific with good advice for him/her.

      1. user-1035959 | Jul 23, 2012 06:34am | #14

        Here's a shot of the main beam. It has been "notched" I was told.

        http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/strategery515/notchedbeamcloseup.jpg

        Here is a picture from farther away showing the wood support posts.

        http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/strategery515/beamposts.jpg

        Here's a shot of where the main beam is connected to the chimney.

        http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/strategery515/woodbeamattachedtochimney.jpg

        This is a picture of my other beam and sistered wood support posts.

        http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/strategery515/woodbeamsistered.jpg

        Here's a close up of the wall in an area where it's not too bad.

        http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/strategery515/foundationwallcloseup.jpg

        Another picture of the wall in an area where it's worse.

        http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/strategery515/016.jpg

        Here's a corner that looks like it had some moisture issues which have since been addressed, but the damage to the wall has been done.

        http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/strategery515/013.jpg

        Here's a picture of the floor where it's cracked. It's a pretty thin floor. Some moisture issues at the time.

        http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/strategery515/012.jpg

        1. Piffin | Jul 27, 2012 08:48pm | #20

          I have seen far worse that this go for ddozens of years. A little bit of jack posts and exxterior waterproofing would do this placce well for another dozen years or so, based on what I see here.

          1. user-1035959 | Aug 01, 2012 05:17am | #21

            When you say exterior waterproofing, do you mean excavating around the perimeter digging all the way down and applying a waterproofing membrane? How much would a job like that cost? And more importantly, how do I find a contractor who does it? I have looked for someone who does this type of work around here and I haven't found anyone.

      2. wethouse | Oct 13, 2013 01:59pm | #24

        Would you explain further?

        Hi Piffin, would you explain WHY  concrete should NOT be mixed wetter to move it?  We're having trouble with our slab foundation and are doing some research trying to find out why this is happening. Thanks!

  4. k1c | Jul 22, 2012 12:12pm | #13

    As google asks, do you feel lucky? 

    Stop.  Look at the house.  Is it looking sick?

    You are following a track that wants perfection.  It's going to cost and more likely to cost twice your/contractor's estimate.

    Start with $50,000 you were told and add 10%(conservative) for problems, 10% for cost of living somewhere else during work, 10% to fix the house after the work, and 10% for the rainy day.  Btw, I've gone through flipping a few houses where kitchen was gone and we were eating out everyday and all of us sleeping in one room the size of a average study.

    Instead of replacement, think stabilization. 

    If the foundation is undermined (probably not along the whole perimeter),  material can be pumped underneath the problem area.

    Problem foundation can be reinforced without removing it.

    Rethink your attachment to how you were using your basement.

    If your house is built with wood, if the wall are bowed already, straight foundation will correct the bowed wall and crack everything.  Bowing walls can be saved or not, but it does not have to depend on a new foundation.

    Insulation/waterproofing from outside of foundation depends on what kind of problem you have.  Think of natural drainage first.  Inside insulation/waterproofing is almost a diy.

    I don't have the experience with what you are planning, but I do know how fast money can be spent.  I imagine that once the foundation is gone, you are going to see what money pit means.

    edit:  lol, I just hit post button and read your latest reply.  Depending on your plans, you should think about the resell value.  Bowing wall and basement with low ceiling detracts from the value.  You should just reinforce the girder and be done with it.

      

  5. cussnu2 | Jul 23, 2012 03:28pm | #15

    I don't see the obvious major problems with the walls. Why not investigate just building a secondary foundation inside the current foundation? You'll lose sq ft but save major $$$$.

    1. user-1035959 | Jul 23, 2012 05:21pm | #16

      I guess I didn't know that was possible. I have had a couple of guys out to give me their opinion and they never mentioned that.

      One of them said that an alternative in order to buy some more time would be to excavate around the outside, remortar, backplaster, and insulate.

      1. cussnu2 | Jul 24, 2012 09:46am | #17

        Heck even the ultra oicky Mike Holmes did on his show and you know he has to "make it right".  You can probably google his show about what they did with an interior foundation replacement.

        I don't thin they even lifted the house at all.  Just built a new interior block foundation up to the lnew sole plate.

      2. sapwood | Jul 24, 2012 11:45am | #18

        I think you should find a good home inspector and pay him/her to inspect your foundation/basement. Stop guessing about its integrity. A competant foundation contractor might be a suitable source of information, but as you've seen, they are usually hired to fix or build something, not to analyze it.

        1. user-1035959 | Jul 24, 2012 09:34pm | #19

          I hired a home inspector a few years ago when I bought my house. He did encouraged me to replace a few wood posts with steel posts at the very least. Possibly replace the main beam with new posts as well. He didn't say anything about the foundation walls, though I don't know how closely he looked at them.

          The floor is cracked and it's thin. I can't replace it with a 3-4" floor (not to mention a vapor barrier and several inches of gravel for drainage) without compromising headroom in the basement. It's barely over 6' tall now.

  6. user-1035959 | Aug 09, 2012 04:12am | #22

    One other question.

    On the inside, the basement wall surface is not in such good condition. The paint is chipping off and the mortar is crumbling out. Is there an economical way that I can refinish the inside of the walls? And perhaps be able to attache some foamboards to the walls?

    1. DanH | Aug 09, 2012 07:42am | #23

      You can look into getting the walls tuck-pointed.  It's a craft you have to ask around to find.

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