OK here’s the deal…
guy I’ve known for many years and have done work for in the past calls me up back in August. Says his Bothers in a jam and has to get his carport converted to a garage and a driveway and sidewalks formed ASAP. We were really busy at the time, but since it was for so and so’s brother, I said I’d pull one of my guys off my big site and help him out. I gave a budget price but agreed to do it by the hour + materials. I spent a few hours of my time, but most of the work was done by my very competent young carpenter. Including time on a Saturday, which we normally don’t do, but because of the hurry we made an exception.
There was one minor error in the form work which was easily fixed in 15 minutes time and not charged for. And after the side wall was framed they said they wanted a door. So studs were added and the opening was cut.
So when I try to get my money, he says we took to long and it shouldn’t cost that much! The price came to $100.00 less than the budgeted estimate. So I asked him what the problem is when it came out $100.00 less than the estimate, and that it could have come out more and he’d still have to pay me. So he goes on about how he could have done it quicker and a bunch of other BS.
So I call up his brother and say what’s the deal?! after that I thought is was straightened out. Next time I talk to the guy , he’s all friendly on the phone and says he’ll have some money for me soon. Finally…DECEMBER! I get less than a third! says’ he’ll have the rest by before Christmas. Anyway..moving along more phone calls more stalling. Then finally tonight again stalls me to the 1st. But then starts again with the ” we have to go over the bill” an now is saying he’s got three other guys to look at the job I did and and have all quoted it cheaper. I know for a fact there is nothing wrong with what he was charged, and that any hack can say anything that doesn’t mean squat.
Again, I call up the bother and now I’m livid. the brother talks to him and he’s going on about all these “mistakes” he was charged for. The formwork, ( which I noted on the invoice .25 hour to fix – not charge) He’s saying my guy had told him he had to take the whole wall down and re frame it – because of OUR mistake not putting the door in. But as I said before, all he had to do was add the trimmer studs and cut out the plywood, which was how he did it. and now after six months, apparently he had to get another guy to fix something before he could pour. 1st I’ve heard of this!
He’s also now saying my carpenter told him what I pay him per hour. So he thinks now I’m ripping him off by my mark up on labour. He said that my guy said he knows he could make more money working for someone else but he likes working for me. So I called my guy up, and asked him about any conversations he had with this guy. He tells me that so and so offered to hire him and would pay him more than whatever I’m paying him. My guy tells him that he likes working for me and either way, he’s with me.
So If my employee made so many mistakes, why did he offer to hire him! And the guy is so full of BS. I doubt he even got any quotes, not that it makes any difference.
I can’t even begin to say how steamed I am! If this guy does not pay up I’m ready to get my whole crew over there and rip the whole thing down.
Edited 1/20/2009 2:51 am by alrightythen
Replies
Sounds like the guy you've known for many years sold you out to his crooked brother. The smartest thing to do is probably go over to the site and take lot's of pictures of everything to show all the details of the work you performed. Then tell both brothers you're taking the crooked one to court unless he takes you down to his bank the next business day and has them cut you a cashier's check for the full amount. It would probably feel more satisfying to just rip down what you did for him though, but only for a short while. And then again, I wonder if you'd give him an opportunity to turn around and take legal action against you? I wish it was easy to isolate and ostracize deceitful jerks like that.
I don't know if the court costs would be worth it. It's my material and my labour. When you buy a car and you don't pay they reposess.
I know it's not exactly the same thing..but still If he wants to get some hack to rebuild it for him or do it himself, let him knock himself out. Our crew could have the whole thing down by lunch time, long befoe he gets home from work.
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Edited 1/20/2009 3:00 am by alrightythen
Ninety-eight percent of my work is T&M, if I don't personally know the person I always get the material $$$ up front.
Guy hasn't got the money so he's stalling you out.
Don't get caught up in arguing with all his ####; that lets him lead the discussion and puts you on the defensive. He can only win if he gets to set the rules and he can only do that if you let him.
Stay cool and in charge and calmly lead this guy to the idea he is going to have a legal problem if he doesn't come through. Advise your buddy as well. He has some responsibility because you were doing him a favour and maybe you can guilt him into putting some pressure on as well.
Yeah the brother says he's completely on my side and doesn't know why his brothers being an idiot. He's told him he needs to pay his bill, and that I did the work as a favour to him. View Image View Image
Buy a Denver Boot and put it on his car/truck. He pays up, you remove the boot....The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it. -Mark Twain...Be kind to your children....they will choose your nursing home....aim low boys, they're ridin' shetland ponies !!
Its always the guy in a "jam" and in a hurry thats the slowest to pay.
He do not have da money and is nit pickin to stall or get you off the trail hoping you will just roll over.
Call him morn, noon and night every day.
Visit him at his home every night.
Go to where he works and ask for him.
Park behind him at the lumberyard so he cant move.
I've done all the "correct' things to get money in a biggish suit ($47,000+) for non-payment by a close neighbor, and won. Took two years, and an infinite amount of worrying and self-doubt.
Never again.
Go to his house, now, and get the money - don't leave without it.
Or drop it and make yourself forget it.
There is no middle way you can live with.
Forrest
I don't know much about small claims court, but you might want to look into that. You argue your case yourself--no lawyers involved. Do you have a written contract? That would really help in court. Like others said, the guy just doesn't want to pay or doesn't have the money to pay and is just making up excuses. No matter what you did/do, it wouldn't be right. He's a jerk.
This will wear you down, find someone to collect it for you, pay the price and move on.
the guy is obviously a scumbag. the only language a scumbag understands is scumbag.
find someone BIG to collect it for you. nothing like a pack of bikers in your driveway to encourage a little motivation
The funny thing is someone else owes me 10 time the ammount this loser owes me and for the same ammount of time. His company is going bankrupt, and I may never see the money from that job.
I know the woes this other guy is having, loosing all his trucks and company that he and his wife put 15 years of their lives into. He's paid me a litttle here and there, although the trustee supposed to pay the banks before I see any of it. I know the money will run out before I see all of it, but I also know the guy is doing a lot worse than I am right now as far as what he is losing, and his wife is barely keep things together.
Right now though I need every buck, and it's this other guy that has me steamed over the few lousy bucks he owes me.
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Edited 1/20/2009 9:26 am by alrightythen
You have every right to be fuming. Now is not the time for him to re-negotiate the deal. He made a commitment and won't honor it.
Nonetheless, and this is probably not what you want to hear... ask him what he'll give you to consider the transaction complete. If it even approaches what you might get through the court system or at least covers basic expenses, accept it and move on.
Yeah, he's a <insert appropriate epithet>, just figure out how to get him out of your life.
Stop by to check out the job, hammer in a few nails to "fix" something. You've then re-activated your lien rights and then register your construction lien. Start the court claim and register the certificate of action the court will issue for you. Then serve.
Or just sue and file your writ on the house after you get judgment (search title of the house beforehand and sue both husband and wife if joint owners). The basis of the claim is breach of contract (husband was agent for the wife) and unjust enrichment/quantum meruit.
Alrightythen: Some of the 'legal' advice given here will get you in more trouble than it is worth. Your recourse for any contract action is through the courts - not self help. Most states - if they are common law states - require any contract for more than $500 be in writing. They also require the contractor to have a valid sate license to conduct business in that particular state. Without that valid license you are precluded from using the courts as a remedy for any wrongs arising from the completion of the contact. It is not the same as repossession of a motor vehicle because it is an additions to the existing structure itself. Therefore, there are steps you must take to achieve success - not remove the building itself.
Small Claims courts have jurisdictional limits. Some also restrict the type of suit you can bring. Most states would not restrict contract actions as they are the most prolific suits ever invented by lawyers. A lien on the house/land means you only get paid when he sells the house. You are present at the closing and have you rights protected by the title insurance company - unless of course he sells on a land contract without recording the transaction.
All of this is a mess. Given that stress takes years off your life decide what you want to do and what is the least stressful way out of the problem. That may very well NOT mean forgiving the debt. That may bother you more than appearing before a judge and pleading your case.
Sorry this has happened. What a jerk. I do believe the cosmos makes everyting equal in the end. When someone takes cuts in line I always call then out for it. Makes me feel better. So do what you must.
Hope this helps a little. Mike
a verbal contract is a valid contract.
just harder to prove.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
"Some of the 'legal' advice given here will get you in more trouble than it is worth. Your recourse for any contract action is through the courts - not self help. Most states - if they are common law states"He lives in Canada.
Whoops - my bad as they say.Mike
Sneaky Canucks. Taking over the board, half of Florida in the winter, all the resorts in Cuba...what's next?
If all the deal paperwork is in order, your license in order, the job done to code, etc. just sue the ba$tard.
If you go to his property and remove the work you will be in serious trouble. That's the worst possible thing you could do.
You need to decide if you want to try to collect this money on principle, or if you should just forget it and move on.
If you want to collect, make sure you ducks are in a row, file a lien on the property, give him a copy of all the paperwork by certified mail, then file a small claim (if you can, depends on the local dollar limit) and have that paperwork served too. That may get you your money with no further issue. Or, it may not.
You could combine this with McDesign's approach--become such a total PITA that the guy pays you just to be rid of you.
You might also be better off walking away. How much money are we talking about here??
I've thougth about that, but really serious trouble for what. It's my hours and my materila and he hasn't paid me for it. If he's not going to pay I want it back. And he can then pay some hack to build it again. ( for the record it's still sitting at sheathing stage. )
Anyway, that's just where my mind is at becuase he's such a complete idiot.
Not sure I will end up doing if he doesn't pay me.
I like the Biker idea, excpet I don't associate with em. But the dark side of my mind that I rarely go to thinks about my old neighbour who was in big with the biker gang, and who's wife came to my Ex's home salon to get her nails done etc. She liked my Ex a lot and was fiendly with us. I think about showing up with 20 bikers or so...but the last thing I want is to start oweing bikers favours. And knwoing bikers you never know when things could get outta hand. So I don't think I'll go that route. View Image View Image
Could you....er some vandals...spray paint DEADBEATon the side of his garage?
Once you install materials on his property--or possibly even once you deliver them--they become part of the property. If you remove them you are vandalizing the property. Talk to your lawyer before you get medieval on this guy.
or possibly even once you deliver them--they become part of the property
Yes, in Wisconsin I believe you are correct. I had a son of a contractor tell me his dad had material delivered, but the owner's down payment check wasn't good. Went over and picked up the material, later was visited by the sheriff with a "Theft by a contractor" charge. I don't remember how it turned out for him though.
Bowz
I'll go you one betteryou can't even "return" their stuffHad a contractor not pay. Returns approx same amount of trash. Got a call later from the Sheriff. He allowed me to pick it back up w/no charges being filedI just write off 1.5% of all sales now. I feel much better and my blood pressure doesn't go up. Ultimately, it shows more about the deadbeat than about yourself
Edited 1/20/2009 7:18 pm ET by Scrapr
And what about you, davidmeiland? You strike me as someone who's more up on their paperwork than me.
Do you religiously file your notices?
k
>>Do you religiously file your notices?
Pretty much.
For jobs over a few thousand I execute a detailed contract. One of the attachments is the standard-issue pre-lien notice (WA state has a specific version you have to use, so I do). It's attached to the back of the contract package and is referenced in the contract as well.
For jobs under a few thousand... I rarely bother. It's too much to whip out a 8-page-plus paper nightmare on someone for that kind of money. Only exception I might make is if I am going to handle someone's very expensive stuff. I once signed a contract with a guy before I did 3 hours of work hanging a door, because he had spent $8000 on the door and I wanted my contract language regarding owner-provided stuff.
OK here's what I'm thinking of doing. When I meet him after the 1st - I'm thinking of making up a "customer satisfaction report" sheet.
I'll will tell him how I've never had an unsatisfied customer, and since he's clearly "not Happy" with my services I'd would like to document his issues so that I may better serve my customers.
I will get him to fill the sheet out, and list all the "many" mistakes he's claiming. Under the survey question regarding estimate and billiing, have him write down what I told him the price would be and what the bill was that I charged him. He can then write down why he thinks he shouldn't pay it. I will put him on the spot to write down the names and phone numbers of the three companies that gave him quotes. ( If they even exist) If he doesn't list the companies or can't "rememeber" their names or have written quotes" I will note it down.
Once he has written everything down I will then address his "issues". If he doesn't want to pay me my full ammount. Then I will inform him that I will put the lein on his house and we can settle it in small claims. View Image View Image
getting all that in writing sounds like a good plan. and threatening a lien is also worth a shot, although in most places (as I think others have already mentioned) you have to file a lien notice before beginning work to legally have that leverage.
I don't know if that is true for you too, and if the client doesn't know, then it may be a viable bluff, but be aware it may come down to a lawsuit/ small claims court anyway. The written report may help in court, if he's dumb enough to admit in writing the work is all done and he hasn't paid.
k
I certainly would not file a lien if the proper pre notice was not given.
but I might threaten to if the douchebag client didn't know better, and I thought he might fold under my bluff...
k
Rules for liens are different in Canada. Most important is that there is a 45 day time limit for filing from completion or abandonment:http://www.journalofcommerce.com/article/20070108400
Interesting. That actually seems fairer than what I have to do. Thanks for the info.
k
Thanks for the link View Image View Image
You're welcome. I was kind of curious for my own sake. I've not run into the need to do it, but probably a good thing to read the rules.Your idea about going back to see him and taking charge of the meeting is a good one, but I'd be really careful about letting him build a maze of complaints and leading you into trying to solve them. You had a deal, gave him a product he accepted and now he owes you. You don't have to justify that to him. If he can lead you down the road of trying to satisfy him, he'll string you along for as long as it takes to get rid of you.I bet he doesn't know the lien rules. Lawyer's letter or small claims filing just as tactics might be worth the cost depending on how much is at stake here. He won't pay you until you make him flinch. If you aren't going to do that, chalk it up as a lesson and move on.
It's really a ruse to get him to admit he's got nothing.
There has never been a complaint about the workmanship, the minor error in the formwork was such a small thing that was easily fixed in 15 minutes which he was not billed for the 15 minutes time. The door thing was sonehting he added. and again was an easy fix, if it came down to it I could give him another 15 minutes. The thing about getting someone to come and fix somehting before he could pour is BS. I never heard a things about it, and in fact he still hasn't told me about that, it was after I called his brother he gave that line to him along with all of his other BS. He can't say he couldn't get ahold of me, because he never tried, he had no trouble of getting ahold of me to fix the form. And if my guy was doing such a poor job, then why did he offer to hire my guy for more than whatever I'm paying him.
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Edited 1/24/2009 8:22 pm by alrightythen
Layers and judges like notes, they don't care about feelings, liars, contractors or homeowners. If you really want a judgement and basically that's all you can get then ask him to sign a note. He obviously doesn't have the money. If you need the money, then sell the note. If he won't sign the note then you have to sue and he can argue about any aspect of what you did. There is always someone arpund the corner that can say EVEYTHING you did is wrong.
Makes me angry just thinking about deadbeat jerks like that.Good luck with him.
Thanks...
And thanks to everyone for their ideas and letting me vent. That in itself had helped me to get myself calmed down over the whole matter. View Image View Image
I finally got some more money out of the guy. Gave me a check for about half what's oweing.
But I had a tape recorder on me, and he said nothing about any of his so called "complaints" said he would give me a call when he has some more money.
Here's the hilarious part...
the guy is a tile guy , and I have him on tape going on about how customers are trying to cut him down on HIS prices, and how he tells em to go $#%* themselves!
pretty funny if you ask me. View Image View Image
why would one file a lien before the work has begun?
Anyway, I the article linked to, and sounds like I may be outta time as far as being able to lien.
I guess that means in the future:
'All invoices not paid within 30 days will invoke the a lien against the property.'
Man what a pain having to put something like that in a contract for all the other honest people I deal with. View Image View Image
It's kind of weird, I'll admit. You don't file a lien, you file a notice that says you can and will lien. You're technically legally required to file the 20-day notice at the start of every job.
If you haven't filed the notice, you can't file the lien.
k
"You don't file a lien, you file a notice that says you can and will lien. You're technically legally required to file the 20-day notice at the start of every job."Again that varies by state. And in some state it varies if it is a residential or commercial job.While the concept applies to all there are enough details that one should ignore anything that anybody says in a forum and find out for their particular state..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
You're right. I said it may differ for him, and thanked the poster who put the Canada docs up.
k
(In CA) you have to file a lien notice before beginning work to legally have that leverage.
I don't know if that is true for you too, and if the client doesn't know, then it may be a viable bluff
Edited 1/24/2009 6:07 pm ET by KFC
That bites. Our system is so wrong. Why do attorney's get $5K non-refundable deposit? They do nothing, you fire them, they keep the money. Contractors do all kinds of work, up front, on trust, and get burned. Again and again. Makes my blood boil. Don't know what to tell you, but I'm in there with you, let us know how it turns out."...craftsmanship is first & foremost an expression of the human spirit." - P. Korn
bakersfieldremodel.com
And you're facing similar douchebagism...
O.K., though, I gotta ask, as one Ca. contractor to another, did you file the 20-day notice at the beginning of your craftsman style addition job?
I never have. I've only been burned once, and I figure their karma caught up to them at some point. But we're supposed to...
k
I have never filed a lien. But I contacted an attorney to discuss this job. I found out that a general contractor does not have to file a 20-day notice. That is for sub's. I have 90 days to file, unless he files a notice of completion, in which case I have 60 days. So my 60 day countdown starts TODAY.
I will bill him in two weeks for final payment 8.5K. Then two more weeks to pay. If not, I'll go ahead and file. The attorney I spoke with said he will sue him for me. I didn't ask, but I'm figuring probably 2 or 2.5K minimum attorney costs. Well worth it if he gets me my 8.5K as opposed to nothing, but obviously not a route I want to take.
I have been burned for $10K by a GC who I was subbing some finish work to, $5K each on two jobs, but I threated a lien (bluff), and in both cases the property owners paid me, and deducted it from the money they owed the G.C. "...craftsmanship is first & foremost an expression of the human spirit." - P. Korn
bakersfieldremodel.com
>>but I threated a lien (bluff), and in both cases the property owners paid me, and deducted it from the money they owed the G.C.
Way to go!!
You're right. The "20-day notice" is for subs. I meant the "notice to owner".
I obviously forgot the legal/business part of the licensing about a minute after the test...
k
That sounds like a bunch of BS if I ever heard it. Why did he have 3 guys look at it AFTER the job was done? and sure they would have done it cheaper.
The guy is a deadbeat and trying every excuse he can think of.
Even though it hasnt happened to me lately, it is one of the most aggravating parts of the business.
One preventative measure I have taken is by setting up an account at a local contractor type lumberyard. They bill me monthly and each job has an invoice. If someone doesnt pay me, I dont pay for their materials until I am paid in full. If someone isnt paying, I call the lumberyard and notify them.
They in turn, have a certified letter hand delivered to the address and signed by the homeowner.
It reads something like.... If we, XYZ Lumber are not paid because of non-payment to said contractor, we have the right to file a lein and take legal action which could exceed $10,000. It is worded much better, but I havent actually done it for a long time.
They also send out a pre-lein notice to any job over $2,000 of materials, that also has the unpaid contractor clause in it. Some homeowners are offended by it, but at least they take the payments more seriously then.
I had one deadbeat who ignored my bill and phone calls for a few weeks.
He even had his 10 year old kid lie and say he wasnt home. (I could hear him talking in the background). This was for a small one day job, no contract just a handshake type agreement. I finally got fed up with his BS and called the lumberyard. They sent the certified letter and his wife called me the same day they recieved it. Very apologetic, and mailed the check right away.
I really dont like dealing with deadbeats, so if I have a bad feeling about someone, I usually pass on the job.
I'm aggravated just reading your post.I'll refrain from giving you advice, you'll wind up in the big house taking my advice.
mike
Since no one else suggested it, if he burns you, leave him a dead possum, as often as you can.
lol...
you made me smile.
thanks D i View Image View Image
I've been there with a customer. First thing you do is change the debt to prommisory note and get the construction out of the way. If you need to get a judgement against him, let it not be arguable about workmanship. And rememeber once you accept a note , you are paid.
 '
Edited 1/24/2009 7:46 pm ET by shellbuilder