We are going to replace our furnace this year, and would like to know what the pro’s think on brands and quality. We will heat about 1500 square feet with it, and I want HRV and an air cleaner too. Can this be done as a combo furnace/HRV?
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Replies
Since you are in PNW, consider going to a heat pump.
Unless the 20% state initiative from last year really jacks up elec. rates, likely to remain less costly to run than nat gas.
Stacked a Goodman heat pump on top of son's downflow NG furnace 4 years ago in Kent, dont think the nat gas furnace has been run since then, just the gas water heater. Lotta dealers will badmouth Goodman, do not know personally about their furnaces, but have installed 3 HPs and they are OK with a little cabinet upgrading.
You can get a 410A refrigerant HP off the internet for pretty good savings, no freon liscense required so you could DIY install one for under $2K , payback in about 3-4 years (shorter, that's not counting not having to buy a new furnace otherwise - I'll loan you the install equipment if you vote for McCain or Obama, you guess which is the right answer <G>).
Only suggestion is to get a two stage Heat Pump. The lower stage will run most of the time saving lots of dollars. Get a scroll rather than a piston model. Much more efficient and it will last a lot longer.
Did I miss something? How do they know you are in the PNW?
Major brands IMO are very close in quality ... generally speaking ... Trane, Carrier, York, Rheem/Rudd, Bryant. Lennox tends to be a notch up in quality. Not well known off brands may not have the quality. I'm sure there are a number of other common brands/manufacturers that I did not list ... (someone jump in here).
You have choices ... combustion efficiency ratings ... Standard (~70%), Medium (80+%), High (i.e. condensing type @ 90+%).
If you are in Seattle area ... a Heat pump option is definately a reasonable option, Spokane ... still considered reasonable, but much less efficient ... but still doable. If you are in a cold winter climate ... forget it (I'll get grief, here, from some who believe you can use a heat pump down to 0 degF).
Shop on line for comparisons and availability. Some locations may not be able to provide you with options. Think about efficiency and fuel availability and cost.
Thanks guys. The options now are endless compared to when the original went in.
I used to understand that heat pumps had a heat exchanging coil that was put underground. Can you guys educate me if this is still the case? Or do you use an external heat exchanger of some sort? In our physics class from decades ago we de heat exchange equations and calculations. It was pretty cool stuff. I remember that exchange coils were buried in cold climates to use the earth as a big heat sink/pool.http://www.etherhuffer.typepad.com
Since I live in the city of Seattle, I can vote early and often and may take you up on that. Ha!http://www.etherhuffer.typepad.com
How many ballots did you cast for Gregoire,or were you the one that "found" those lost ballots stuck in the voting machine. Chicago ain't got nothin' on Seattle.
I actually voted for Rossi. I don't particularly like the guy, but our state is so imbalanced that its not good. A division of power by party here would help a lot.http://www.etherhuffer.typepad.com
Probably the most common heat pumps are air to air. Basically a an AC unit that can be reversed to suck heat out of the outside air in the winter and discharge it in the house.And there are the ground contact units, often miss called geothermal. Inside of an outside coil they have a heat exchanger and water or anti freeze is circulated them it. It can either be from a well (rarel) or the water is curculated through a loop that is buried horizontally or placed in a deep bore or thrown in a lake.And there are some direct exchange units that instead of have an "outside coil" directly burry copper tubing that the freon circulates through..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Noise? I am on a smaller city lot with not a lot of room and where noise would affect me or my neighbor.http://www.etherhuffer.typepad.com
IN AC mode they make as much or as little noise as an AC unit.However, the external part are a little noiser in the heating mode.Don't know if that is all the time or maybe just defrostings.And I don't know if that is the nature of the beast or varies by design.But I know that can hear my neighbors, when I am outside in the heating months..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
I just had a Bryant two stage Scroll heat pump installed. Not pushing Bryant over other units. You can hardly hear it when it is running. I am pushing scroll though. In the factory ware I work all air compressors are scroll. They just keep running. Old piston types made lots of noise and had breakdown issues. Scroll has finally come to heat pumps and I wouldn't put anything else in. The unit I put in is called a Hybrid unit only if it gets real cold the heat pump turns off and a high efficiency gas unit kicks in. These systems have been around for a wile now they have fancy names. I have a neighbor who has a heat pump and below 32 degrees they turn it off and turn on a boiler that has been in the house for years.
good points about a good technology.
I think for my relatively low square footage and mild climate, its hard to get really worked up on some of the higher tech, but it sounds like a good idea. We are unlikely to move, so payback issues often work for us.
So,,,, There has to be piping from furnace to external unit too I assume. How far can you run piping on these units?http://www.etherhuffer.typepad.com
I did some more searching on the Hybrid. Great idea. What is a ballpark number on these units? I am thinking we have a 2 ton load maximum. All new windows and insulation, etc.http://www.etherhuffer.typepad.com
You don't need a hybrid in Seattle area, basically thorowing your extra cash away.
Added a HP on top of nat gas furnace at son's house 3 years ago and he has never fired up the gas furnance since.
Under $2K for 2.5T HP on ebay if you DIY install.
Really good deal, you may be interested below.
I looked on grainger, they have a YORK 3Ton packaged heat pump for $688 on a closeout - No EPA license needed for a package unit, but you would have to put 2 ducts thru your outside wall. I was going to order one myself for the barn at that price, but there is only one left and it is in Chicago, so there is another $300 for shipping.
Yeah, when was the last big chill here? Its been quite a while.http://www.etherhuffer.typepad.com
Next Wed/Thurs, I'm getting my new system installed. 2 stage heat pump over a 90+ gas furnace. Carrier brand.
I went and checked one out while it was running. Significantly quieter than the AC unit that just died. I'm having it moved to the end of the house rather than under the deck on the back. That will put the outside unit 30'-40' from the airhandler/furnace. They sell 50' linesets.
I considered installing myself, but apparently the warranties are no good if not done by a dealer. Business was slow. I got about $2K off the regular price.http://grantlogan.net
.......nature abhors a vacuum cleaner.....
They make no more noise than an air conditioner ... and do it in the winter ... when most windows might be closed ... pay your money ... take your choice.
I think it is very rare to see a direct buried refrigerant coil ... In some cases, the BO would not allow it at all ... this is the case w/ commercial systems. I've never seen one and I've seen a lot of ground source systems.
There are geothermal heating systems ... generally very rare. They use high temp geothermal heat ... so you really don't need a heat pump ... but it is rare to find applications where you find a hot water source like that. Boise Idaho does have a district heating system like that that heats an entire neighborhood ... but, again ... an anomally and not a choice for most people to have.
Those are called ground source heat pumps (GSHP) and they do make some type of connection with the ground or ground water ... using a water coil or loop that is buried or run in a well or put in a lake/body of water, etc.
Very efficient, they can tend to be expensive, but I caution that you should never ever make that generalization ... each site is unique and many sites and situations will provide a very inexpensive system. Economics is very site specific so you cannot generalize.
Like the other guy said ... air source are most common and primarily used in milder climates (Not International Falls, MN or Montana, but e.g. Seattle, Sanfrancisco, etc.
If you click on a persons name you get to their profile. If you've been a good little Breaktimer, you will have filled this out and people will know all your little secrets.
BTW, if you click on your own name you can fill out a profile on yourself.
Family.....Their always there when they need you.
Edited 7/31/2008 9:00 pm ET by MSA1
The name on the cabinet is secondary to the quality of the installation.
A HRV is just a box with a Coroplast heat exchanger, a fan and four ducts. It is a means to temper (condition, to a point) fresh air brought in from outdoors. The box has filters that require maintenance, and no air will circulate unless the fan inside the box is operating. How well the HRV tempers the air is a function of airspeed across the heat exchanger.
Forced mechanical ventilation will impact the heat loss/cooling load calculation on a home.
The best air cleaners on the market today combine elements of a pure plate electrostatic and a depth media filter. Aprilaire 5000 and the Trane Clean Effects are two specific brands.
The air cleaner needs to be sized properly to work with the airflow requirements of the system. Two of these filters in parallel return ducts may be needed to reduce pressure drop.
An air to air heat pump has lower discharge temperatures compared to a gas or oil furnace. Some people have a problem with this. A heat pump using R-410A will have a higher discharge temperature.
Some two stage units have a lower heating capacity than a single stage unit. You gotta look at the specs.
Heating capacity of an air to air heat pump decreases as the outdoor temperature goes down.
You may have longer equipment run times with a heat pump, so get the most efficient equipment you can reasonably afford. Don't even think about using anything but a furnace/air handler without a variable speed motor.
If you have gas now, using a furnace as an air handler adds a backup heat system for little additional cost. Straight air handlers with variable speed motors are not commonplace yet.
There is nothing special about the Bryant Hybrid system, other than marketing.
A Honeywell Vision Pro IAQ stat will turn any equipment into a "hybrid" system. It will also control the HRV and humidifier with proper wiring and an optional outdoor temp sensor. You can stage the gas/electric heat and the heat pump. It is a very sophisticated piece of equipment.
I am printing your post! Thanks for the great advice! I know that poorly installed HVAC won't do the trick. Seen too much of that in the past, and the HRV adds more complexity.http://www.etherhuffer.typepad.com